A possible solution to leaking axle seals
05-09-2012, 04:04 AM
#1
THE solution to leaking axle seals
Theory: the retainer is not making contact with the seal correctly and allows oil to leak past.
Observation: my seal when seated in the housing all the way in,would ride right on the bevel edge of the shoulder of the retainer. Any wobble would let oil get by the seal. The retainer had a polished ring near the edge. You can see the ring next to the bevel in the top photo
Solution: I just re-did the seals for the forth time in 3 months. I found that no matter how I installed the seal it didn't sit on the retainer far enough. I even tried the Timken seal 1960 but the rubber was too stiff and it failed in two days. Its a crappy seal, stick with oem. My solution was to install new retainers backwards so there is more of the shoulder for the seal to ride on. I also moved it inboard by 1mm plus the 3mm i gained from not having the bevel there anymore equals an extra 4mm of shift in placement. If you go more than about 3mm inboard with the retainer, it will rub the housing. So 1mm is all i wanted to move it. By doing this, it will allow you to seat the seal all the way into the housing squarely. Here's a couple of pics.
Old config
New config
5/04/2012 installed @ 158,000
5/27/2012 still dry
6/28/2012 still dry
7/19/2012 still dry not a drop of oil leaking. Its been 2000+ miles and this time I ran a ribbon of cheese cloth around the ABS ring and it came up dry.
9/15/2012 still dry
10/15/2012 still dry
02/13/2013 still dry
6/15/2013 still dry @ 169,500 miles.
3/1/2014 still dry @ 177,500 miles
7/10/2015 still dry @ 194,000 miles
2/9/2018 still dry @. 225,000 miles
...So far so good.
When you install the axle, use MP grease on the seal and put gear oil on the retainer and be careful inserting it into the seal. Dont force it. Once it lines up it will slip into the seal nicely. The edge does have a mild bevel to it so it won't damage the seal if you don't force it. You will know that you are in the sweet spot if you feel the resistance of the rubber seal 3/16" before the bearing carrier plate mates up to the axle housing. That will put you dead center on the retainer.
* don't assume the original inner retainer is in the correct position. If your axle vent is clear, it probably wouldn't have leaked if it was positioned correctly. I would suggest before disassembling the axle, install a new seal in the housing and test the position on the retainer with grease to make sure it will be correct. I used the new retainer to check how deeply it could be set into the seal. It turns out that the retainer bottoms out on the housing before it will flush up with outside of the seal.
I have read discussions of only partially seating the seal so it sits on the retainer better. I tried it and I personally couldn't get the seal to square up properly.
I think this may well be the solution to this problem.
Feel free to share your thoughts.
This is an image taken from the TSB regarding the seal redesigned in 2003. If you notice the old seal had a long flat contact patch which would sit upon the shoulder of the retainer extending all the way to the outer edge of the seal. In the newly redesigned seal, they changed it to an angled contact point, but that contact point is too far inboard (now near the inside edge of the retainer) and rests not upon the shoulder but on the retainer's bevel.
This could explain why even new seals are failing simply because they aren't seating on the retainer at all. The TSB link is below the picture.
TSB for axle seal
Observation: my seal when seated in the housing all the way in,would ride right on the bevel edge of the shoulder of the retainer. Any wobble would let oil get by the seal. The retainer had a polished ring near the edge. You can see the ring next to the bevel in the top photo
Solution: I just re-did the seals for the forth time in 3 months. I found that no matter how I installed the seal it didn't sit on the retainer far enough. I even tried the Timken seal 1960 but the rubber was too stiff and it failed in two days. Its a crappy seal, stick with oem. My solution was to install new retainers backwards so there is more of the shoulder for the seal to ride on. I also moved it inboard by 1mm plus the 3mm i gained from not having the bevel there anymore equals an extra 4mm of shift in placement. If you go more than about 3mm inboard with the retainer, it will rub the housing. So 1mm is all i wanted to move it. By doing this, it will allow you to seat the seal all the way into the housing squarely. Here's a couple of pics.
Old config
New config
5/04/2012 installed @ 158,000
5/27/2012 still dry
6/28/2012 still dry
7/19/2012 still dry not a drop of oil leaking. Its been 2000+ miles and this time I ran a ribbon of cheese cloth around the ABS ring and it came up dry.
9/15/2012 still dry
10/15/2012 still dry
02/13/2013 still dry
6/15/2013 still dry @ 169,500 miles.
3/1/2014 still dry @ 177,500 miles
7/10/2015 still dry @ 194,000 miles
2/9/2018 still dry @. 225,000 miles
...So far so good.
When you install the axle, use MP grease on the seal and put gear oil on the retainer and be careful inserting it into the seal. Dont force it. Once it lines up it will slip into the seal nicely. The edge does have a mild bevel to it so it won't damage the seal if you don't force it. You will know that you are in the sweet spot if you feel the resistance of the rubber seal 3/16" before the bearing carrier plate mates up to the axle housing. That will put you dead center on the retainer.
* don't assume the original inner retainer is in the correct position. If your axle vent is clear, it probably wouldn't have leaked if it was positioned correctly. I would suggest before disassembling the axle, install a new seal in the housing and test the position on the retainer with grease to make sure it will be correct. I used the new retainer to check how deeply it could be set into the seal. It turns out that the retainer bottoms out on the housing before it will flush up with outside of the seal.
I have read discussions of only partially seating the seal so it sits on the retainer better. I tried it and I personally couldn't get the seal to square up properly.
I think this may well be the solution to this problem.
Feel free to share your thoughts.
This is an image taken from the TSB regarding the seal redesigned in 2003. If you notice the old seal had a long flat contact patch which would sit upon the shoulder of the retainer extending all the way to the outer edge of the seal. In the newly redesigned seal, they changed it to an angled contact point, but that contact point is too far inboard (now near the inside edge of the retainer) and rests not upon the shoulder but on the retainer's bevel.
This could explain why even new seals are failing simply because they aren't seating on the retainer at all. The TSB link is below the picture.
TSB for axle seal
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 02-09-2018 at 06:14 PM.
05-09-2012, 08:58 AM
#3
Registered User
Just add more gap between that ring and the ABS sensor wheel?
When the MS did the rear axle on my wife's '96, they pressed everything in together. Obviously leaked as if it wasn't there. We had to take the other side off (untouched) and take them both back to have them install it correctly.
It's really a shame Toyota didn't use a spacer in there, but instead relied on a gap between those two parts for it to work properly.
When the MS did the rear axle on my wife's '96, they pressed everything in together. Obviously leaked as if it wasn't there. We had to take the other side off (untouched) and take them both back to have them install it correctly.
It's really a shame Toyota didn't use a spacer in there, but instead relied on a gap between those two parts for it to work properly.
05-09-2012, 09:47 AM
#4
Yes of course. I should have mentioned that fact. I am assuming the vent is clear, the bearings are in good condition and new seals keep leaking.
Thanks for adding that.
Thanks for adding that.
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 05-09-2012 at 10:39 AM.
05-09-2012, 09:50 AM
#5
05-10-2012, 04:28 AM
#6
Registered User
Exactly what i was saying. Don't press that seal ring on as far. Which doesn't affect the positioning of the ABS ring at all, it only moves the ring to a position where the seal can actually seal against it.
05-10-2012, 04:42 AM
#7
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 06-02-2012 at 02:51 AM.
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05-12-2012, 09:15 PM
#9
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i wouldn't have installed the retainer backwards.. the bevel there is to help the seal get over the lip of the retainer easily...
i would have put a larger gap between the retainer and the ABS wheel... we frequently press retainers in part way, apply grease, and insert the axle and then press further in as neccessary...
glad you got your rear end to stop leaking tho!
i would have put a larger gap between the retainer and the ABS wheel... we frequently press retainers in part way, apply grease, and insert the axle and then press further in as neccessary...
glad you got your rear end to stop leaking tho!
05-13-2012, 04:28 AM
#10
The new OEM seal design allows for a lot of flex. Even with the retainer big side in, it goes in easily. This wouldn't work as well with any other seal like Timken or National brands.
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 01-23-2013 at 04:58 AM.
05-13-2012, 07:31 PM
#12
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I would not install the seal ring backwards either. It is a simple matter of measuring pre-dissassembly and then installing back to that spec. If the seal ring was not located in the correct position, which caused the seal failure then just correct for it during assembly. It will be apparent where the seal was riding on the ring if you look close enough. I went so far as to not put the seal in the same location that I found it but crowded it to one side so the seal will be centered almost perfectly. If anyone wants my version of the Toyota SST required for the press work let me know. I can make another one or sell you mine. I am a machinist by trade.
05-13-2012, 09:44 PM
#13
I would not install the seal ring backwards either. It is a simple matter of measuring pre-dissassembly and then installing back to that spec. If the seal ring was not located in the correct position, which caused the seal failure then just correct for it during assembly. It will be apparent where the seal was riding on the ring if you look close enough. I went so far as to not put the seal in the same location that I found it but crowded it to one side so the seal will be centered almost perfectly. If anyone wants my version of the Toyota SST required for the press work let me know. I can make another one or sell you mine. I am a machinist by trade.
05-14-2012, 05:02 AM
#14
Exactly true. Most of us have high miles on the truck and there is no telling how many seals have been installed already. I'm guessing that the PO of my truck just gave up on the leaking seals and traded the truck for another car.
When you pull your axle out, look closely at the retainer. There will be two witness marks. The one closest to the ABS ring is just the outer lip of the seal. The one closest to the pumpkin is the actual seal contact. You can see two rings marked with red and black arrows. The Bevel is not a polished part. The only reason it shines now is the seal was resting there when it should have been on the shoulder of the retainer.
When you pull your axle out, look closely at the retainer. There will be two witness marks. The one closest to the ABS ring is just the outer lip of the seal. The one closest to the pumpkin is the actual seal contact. You can see two rings marked with red and black arrows. The Bevel is not a polished part. The only reason it shines now is the seal was resting there when it should have been on the shoulder of the retainer.
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 06-05-2014 at 04:41 AM.
05-14-2012, 02:46 PM
#15
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In the above picture it appears the ABS exciter ring should have been pressed on further. I think the sensor is pretty forgiving in terms of what it needs for a signal to function properly.
05-14-2012, 03:02 PM
#16
It was installed where the old one was and sits in the center of the sensor hole. Its fine where it is. The camera angle makes it look out of position.
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 05-15-2012 at 01:31 PM.
05-14-2012, 06:15 PM
#17
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I too fear what others have done to my vehicles in the past. Like I said if one looks close enough at the ring pre-dissassembly and you take a measurement you can then add or subtract the desired amount. So even if some dummy assembled incorrectly it shouldn't matter as it will be apparent by what amount he was off after inspection.
05-22-2012, 10:20 AM
#18
Compare the non-ABS axle to the ABS axle and you will quickly notice that the seal of the non ABS is pressed right up against the bearing. That means that if your seal is not pressed right up against the ABS exciter ring, the seal is not sitting on the retainer. But you cannot just push the retainer deeper into the axle housing because it will rub the housing.
* Pay special attention to the seal above in the non-ABS axle housing. It protrudes from the housing and seats against the bearing when bolted together.
Clearly you can see when you view through the ABS sensor hole, the seal is nowhere near the left side of the ABS ring.
Simple math:
The seal is 9mm thick
The retainer is 13mm thick but the shoulder is set back 3mm so the shoulder is 9-10mm across. For the seal to contact the shoulder, the retainer must be flush with the outer edge of the seal (not possible) just to make the proper contact with the mating surface. In the original configuration, the red line would therefore neccessarily need to be overlapping the yellow line for a proper seal to be affected.
The picture below should make this more clear.
* Pay special attention to the seal above in the non-ABS axle housing. It protrudes from the housing and seats against the bearing when bolted together.
Clearly you can see when you view through the ABS sensor hole, the seal is nowhere near the left side of the ABS ring.
Simple math:
The seal is 9mm thick
The retainer is 13mm thick but the shoulder is set back 3mm so the shoulder is 9-10mm across. For the seal to contact the shoulder, the retainer must be flush with the outer edge of the seal (not possible) just to make the proper contact with the mating surface. In the original configuration, the red line would therefore neccessarily need to be overlapping the yellow line for a proper seal to be affected.
The picture below should make this more clear.
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 10-04-2012 at 06:58 AM.
06-10-2012, 06:05 AM
#19
For the people who may want to tackle this DIY and are not sure what the grease test is, here is a picture another forum member provided to me (since I forgot to take this picture when doing mine). Mark tells me he left 3mm of the polished axle inboard of the retainer and once installed, using grease on the retainer and spinning it a few times, it will leave a foot print of where the seal lip is positioned. Note, the bevel is outboard and the retainer shows the seal riding in the center of the retainer.
*When you take your parts to a machine shop, consider printing this picture and bring it with you.
To take this one step further. If you were to only push the retainer inboard as shown but keep the bevel oriented inboard this picture shows where the seal will seat represented by the black line. Not ideal by any account. And if you use the FSM measurement of 122.2mm, the seal will be lucky to touch the retainer at all.
By these pictures, the actual seal contact is 8mm outboard of the start of the polished axle. Thats where the center of the retainer needs to be placed.
*When you take your parts to a machine shop, consider printing this picture and bring it with you.
To take this one step further. If you were to only push the retainer inboard as shown but keep the bevel oriented inboard this picture shows where the seal will seat represented by the black line. Not ideal by any account. And if you use the FSM measurement of 122.2mm, the seal will be lucky to touch the retainer at all.
By these pictures, the actual seal contact is 8mm outboard of the start of the polished axle. Thats where the center of the retainer needs to be placed.
Last edited by DRCOFFEE; 07-11-2012 at 06:35 AM.
