Need Help! Alignment Just Done But Not Right
02-04-2009, 07:47 AM
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Need Help! Alignment Just Done But Not Right
Just got to drive my 96 4runner after having the shop replace all the tie rods and align it.
Before that was all done, only the toe was set and it drove perfectly fine. No wandering/dog tracking at all.
Now it wanders all over the road. The tendency to jump when going over a bump has vanished which is good. However it seems to follow every undulation in the road regardless of speed. Not fun.
Driving into a bend on the highway is equally scary. It falls into the turn and does this wierd wallowing.
All other suspension components checked out fine at the shop. I am taking it back in this afternoon but am looking for insight before I go.
One other thing is that the caster/camber numbers vary from one side to the other. Is that normal? Seems wrong to me.
The toe is set at .09" (range of 0.00"-0.20")
Caster is shown in the negative of -2.80" for the left and -2.62 for the right. Yet the range is 1.88 to 3.38.
Camber is .76" for the left and -0.22" for the right. Specified range is -0.58" to 0.92".
Seems like a mess to me.
Any insight greatly appreciated!
Before that was all done, only the toe was set and it drove perfectly fine. No wandering/dog tracking at all.
Now it wanders all over the road. The tendency to jump when going over a bump has vanished which is good. However it seems to follow every undulation in the road regardless of speed. Not fun.
Driving into a bend on the highway is equally scary. It falls into the turn and does this wierd wallowing.
All other suspension components checked out fine at the shop. I am taking it back in this afternoon but am looking for insight before I go.
One other thing is that the caster/camber numbers vary from one side to the other. Is that normal? Seems wrong to me.
The toe is set at .09" (range of 0.00"-0.20")
Caster is shown in the negative of -2.80" for the left and -2.62 for the right. Yet the range is 1.88 to 3.38.
Camber is .76" for the left and -0.22" for the right. Specified range is -0.58" to 0.92".
Seems like a mess to me.
Any insight greatly appreciated!
02-04-2009, 07:59 AM
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did some research and it would make sense that my caster is too negative. I mean if the specified range is postive, and my caster was set negative, then this may be the issue. Dont alignment shops test drive the vehicle afterwards?!
Also, is it not possible to hit a postive caster with my sonoran steel suspension lift?
Caster
When you turn the steering wheel, the front wheels respond by turning on a pivot attached to the suspension system. Caster is the angle of this steering pivot, measured in degrees, when viewed from the side of the vehicle. If the top of the pivot is leaning toward the rear of the car, then the caster is positive, if it is leaning toward the front, it is negative. If the caster is out of adjustment, it can cause problems in straight line tracking. If the caster is different from side to side, the vehicle will pull to the side with the less positive caster. If the caster is equal but too negative, the steering will be light and the vehicle will wander and be difficult to keep in a straight line. If the caster is equal but too positive, the steering will be heavy and the steering wheel may kick when you hit a bump. Caster has little affect on tire wear.
Also, is it not possible to hit a postive caster with my sonoran steel suspension lift?
Caster
When you turn the steering wheel, the front wheels respond by turning on a pivot attached to the suspension system. Caster is the angle of this steering pivot, measured in degrees, when viewed from the side of the vehicle. If the top of the pivot is leaning toward the rear of the car, then the caster is positive, if it is leaning toward the front, it is negative. If the caster is out of adjustment, it can cause problems in straight line tracking. If the caster is different from side to side, the vehicle will pull to the side with the less positive caster. If the caster is equal but too negative, the steering will be light and the vehicle will wander and be difficult to keep in a straight line. If the caster is equal but too positive, the steering will be heavy and the steering wheel may kick when you hit a bump. Caster has little affect on tire wear.
02-04-2009, 09:22 AM
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I agree Mt. goat. I actually just got off the phone with the shop and told them what it was doing. Aside from his bad english he told me it wasnt anything they did. B.S.! Oh, its something else wrong. And this is the same shop that said all other joints, etc. are fine last week. 
After more insistence on my part he said he could put in postive caster but give up camber. But of course it cant be done until next Tuesday when his tech is back. Why doesnt that suprise me.
So, question now is if postive caster is put back in, then can I at least hit the camber at zero?
After more insistence on my part he said he could put in postive caster but give up camber. But of course it cant be done until next Tuesday when his tech is back. Why doesnt that suprise me.
So, question now is if postive caster is put back in, then can I at least hit the camber at zero?
02-04-2009, 09:23 AM
#5
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Some more info on caster quoted from here:http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4
Caster
The caster angle identifies the forward or backward slope of a line drawn through the upper and lower steering pivot points when viewed directly from the side of the vehicle. Caster is expressed in degrees and is measured by comparing a line running through the steering system's upper and lower pivot points (typically the upper and lower ball joints of an A-arm or wishbone suspension design, or the lower ball joint and the strut tower mount of a McPherson strut design) to a line drawn perpendicular to the ground. Caster is said to be positive if the line slopes towards the rear of the vehicle at the top, and negative if the line slopes towards the front.
A very visual example of positive caster is a motorcycle's front steering forks. The forks point forward at the bottom and slope backward at the top. This rearward slope causes the front tire to remain stable when riding straight ahead and tilt towards the inside of the corner when turned.
Caster angle settings allow the vehicle manufacturer to balance steering effort, high speed stability and front end cornering effectiveness.
Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness. Positive caster also increases tire lean when cornering (almost like having more negative camber) as the steering angle is increased.
What's the downside to positive caster? If the vehicle doesn't have power steering, a noticeable increase in steering effort will be felt as positive caster is increased. Other than that, the effects of positive caster are pretty much "positive," especially increasing the lean of the tire when the vehicle is cornering while returning it to a more upright position when driving straight ahead.
The caster angle identifies the forward or backward slope of a line drawn through the upper and lower steering pivot points when viewed directly from the side of the vehicle. Caster is expressed in degrees and is measured by comparing a line running through the steering system's upper and lower pivot points (typically the upper and lower ball joints of an A-arm or wishbone suspension design, or the lower ball joint and the strut tower mount of a McPherson strut design) to a line drawn perpendicular to the ground. Caster is said to be positive if the line slopes towards the rear of the vehicle at the top, and negative if the line slopes towards the front.
A very visual example of positive caster is a motorcycle's front steering forks. The forks point forward at the bottom and slope backward at the top. This rearward slope causes the front tire to remain stable when riding straight ahead and tilt towards the inside of the corner when turned.
Caster angle settings allow the vehicle manufacturer to balance steering effort, high speed stability and front end cornering effectiveness.
Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness. Positive caster also increases tire lean when cornering (almost like having more negative camber) as the steering angle is increased.
What's the downside to positive caster? If the vehicle doesn't have power steering, a noticeable increase in steering effort will be felt as positive caster is increased. Other than that, the effects of positive caster are pretty much "positive," especially increasing the lean of the tire when the vehicle is cornering while returning it to a more upright position when driving straight ahead.
02-04-2009, 09:31 AM
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02-04-2009, 09:35 AM
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02-04-2009, 09:36 AM
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02-04-2009, 09:41 AM
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Thanks all for your input to find the solution. This forum rocks.
02-04-2009, 09:41 AM
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This write-up is for an older truck, but the caster and camber adjustment proceedure is the same for your truck:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f128...ite-up-163666/
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f128...ite-up-163666/
02-04-2009, 09:47 AM
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Just got to drive my 96 4runner after having the shop replace all the tie rods and align it.
Before that was all done, only the toe was set and it drove perfectly fine. No wandering/dog tracking at all.
Now it wanders all over the road. The tendency to jump when going over a bump has vanished which is good. However it seems to follow every undulation in the road regardless of speed. Not fun.
Driving into a bend on the highway is equally scary. It falls into the turn and does this wierd wallowing.
All other suspension components checked out fine at the shop. I am taking it back in this afternoon but am looking for insight before I go.
One other thing is that the caster/camber numbers vary from one side to the other. Is that normal? Seems wrong to me.
The toe is set at .09" (range of 0.00"-0.20")
Caster is shown in the negative of -2.80" for the left and -2.62 for the right. Yet the range is 1.88 to 3.38.
Camber is .76" for the left and -0.22" for the right. Specified range is -0.58" to 0.92".
Seems like a mess to me.
Any insight greatly appreciated!
Before that was all done, only the toe was set and it drove perfectly fine. No wandering/dog tracking at all.
Now it wanders all over the road. The tendency to jump when going over a bump has vanished which is good. However it seems to follow every undulation in the road regardless of speed. Not fun.
Driving into a bend on the highway is equally scary. It falls into the turn and does this wierd wallowing.
All other suspension components checked out fine at the shop. I am taking it back in this afternoon but am looking for insight before I go.
One other thing is that the caster/camber numbers vary from one side to the other. Is that normal? Seems wrong to me.
The toe is set at .09" (range of 0.00"-0.20")
Caster is shown in the negative of -2.80" for the left and -2.62 for the right. Yet the range is 1.88 to 3.38.
Camber is .76" for the left and -0.22" for the right. Specified range is -0.58" to 0.92".
Seems like a mess to me.
Any insight greatly appreciated!
Did you ask them to do a full alignment for you, or did they just do it on their own. If all you had changed were tie-rods there would have been no reason to mess with camber and caster. A simple toe adjustment is all that would have been needed.
For your camber, even though both sides are in spec, they should ideally be closer to each other than what they left it at.
They are way off on the caster, and yes they should be able to get it positive. They may not be able to get them right in spec because you have the SS 1.2 lift, and the rear of the vehicle is so much higher than the front now, but they should be able to get it close. The important part is that they leave the camber in spec (because camber affects tire wear) while getting the caster as close to spec as they can (caster being out does not affect tire wear). As the rear springs of your 4Runner settle in time (and they will... if they haven't already), this should help bring your caster closer to spec.
Last edited by GSGALLANT; 02-04-2009 at 09:54 AM.
02-04-2009, 09:51 AM
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Lucky for me there is a laser alignment shop across the street from my office. They are going to work with me to get it right. Unfortunately it means another $75 on top of $100.00 already spent at the other shop. Which I didnt choose myself. The 4wd shop that installed my tie rods took it there. Oh, we use them for all of our built rigs....uh, riiiight. Here try this
Thanks all for your input to find the solution. This forum rocks.
Thanks all for your input to find the solution. This forum rocks.
Get the new place to print off an "as-found" of the alignment for you before they change anything to confirm the crappy job that the first place did.
02-04-2009, 09:54 AM
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You should be able to get your money back from the other shop pretty easily, since the printout that they gave you shows that they did not get it anywhere close to where they should have.
Get the new place to print off an "as-found" of the alignment for you before they change anything to confirm the crappy job that the first place did.
Get the new place to print off an "as-found" of the alignment for you before they change anything to confirm the crappy job that the first place did.
Last edited by mt_goat; 02-04-2009 at 09:55 AM.
02-04-2009, 10:15 AM
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You know--i would have changed both upper and lower ball joints while i was at it. I am pretty sure they didnt know how to test to see if they were good or not......but with that many miles i replace....
Positive caster can be had by working the cams.....it takes a lot of effort and alignments on these guys take about two hours (+-)
I took mine to a body shop which just happened to have a guy who built custom frames/suspensions for low riders and 4x4's. He got it dailed in but it cost $150
Positive caster can be had by working the cams.....it takes a lot of effort and alignments on these guys take about two hours (+-)
I took mine to a body shop which just happened to have a guy who built custom frames/suspensions for low riders and 4x4's. He got it dailed in but it cost $150
02-04-2009, 10:20 AM
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You should be able to get your money back from the other shop pretty easily, since the printout that they gave you shows that they did not get it anywhere close to where they should have.
Get the new place to print off an "as-found" of the alignment for you before they change anything to confirm the crappy job that the first place did.
Get the new place to print off an "as-found" of the alignment for you before they change anything to confirm the crappy job that the first place did.
02-04-2009, 10:25 AM
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You know--i would have changed both upper and lower ball joints while i was at it. I am pretty sure they didnt know how to test to see if they were good or not......but with that many miles i replace....
Positive caster can be had by working the cams.....it takes a lot of effort and alignments on these guys take about two hours (+-)
I took mine to a body shop which just happened to have a guy who built custom frames/suspensions for low riders and 4x4's. He got it dailed in but it cost $150
Positive caster can be had by working the cams.....it takes a lot of effort and alignments on these guys take about two hours (+-)
I took mine to a body shop which just happened to have a guy who built custom frames/suspensions for low riders and 4x4's. He got it dailed in but it cost $150
I just talked to the tech across the street and he reffered me to a guy that has a lot of experience with modified suspensions on built rigs. At least he was honest enough to tell me he couldn't do it. My rig is too big for his laser alignment platform. I will be getting in touch with the other guy tommorow.
02-04-2009, 11:53 AM
#18
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Alignments arent rocket science--you have three areas
Toe
Caster
Camber
All it takes is a decent tech with a fair knowledge of how each affects the other.....But they put there head in that machine and forget about what is actually happening----the machine said it was ok....DAHHHH
Dont get it aligned until you replace the upper and lower ball joints. Do a garage alignment--Measure half way up the tire in the front and back and square them up.
And to actually test a ball joint they have to seperate it from the knuckle.......etc....get them replaced then spend the money to get it done right--dont wait to long either
My .02$
Toe
Caster
Camber
All it takes is a decent tech with a fair knowledge of how each affects the other.....But they put there head in that machine and forget about what is actually happening----the machine said it was ok....DAHHHH
Dont get it aligned until you replace the upper and lower ball joints. Do a garage alignment--Measure half way up the tire in the front and back and square them up.
And to actually test a ball joint they have to seperate it from the knuckle.......etc....get them replaced then spend the money to get it done right--dont wait to long either
My .02$
02-04-2009, 04:13 PM
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i just got an alignment done on monday, and as reference, here's my numbers:
BEFORE:
left front - right front
camber 0.0* | -0.1*
caster 3.0* | 2.6*
toe 1.27* | 0.1*
AFTER:
left front - right front
camber 0.2* | -0.1*
caster 3.0* | 2.6*
toe 0.08* | 0.06*
alignment is good- tire wear previously is very even the past 20k miles.
done at sears- relatively cheap ($70), no cars in any bays got me in and out in 30 mins- i told the tech all that was needed was probably toe adjustment (and my tire wear has been quite even) as i just changed the inner tie rod end/steering rack bushings.
on a side note, the steering is TIGHT! i was skeptical about what the bushings would do, and it is night and day. if you have a spare $30 and a weekend, changing out the bushings for the updated polyurethane is worth it's weight in gold!
here's a link to the bushing kit with correctly bored sleeve included.
BEFORE:
left front - right front
camber 0.0* | -0.1*
caster 3.0* | 2.6*
toe 1.27* | 0.1*
AFTER:
left front - right front
camber 0.2* | -0.1*
caster 3.0* | 2.6*
toe 0.08* | 0.06*
alignment is good- tire wear previously is very even the past 20k miles.
done at sears- relatively cheap ($70), no cars in any bays got me in and out in 30 mins- i told the tech all that was needed was probably toe adjustment (and my tire wear has been quite even) as i just changed the inner tie rod end/steering rack bushings.
on a side note, the steering is TIGHT! i was skeptical about what the bushings would do, and it is night and day. if you have a spare $30 and a weekend, changing out the bushings for the updated polyurethane is worth it's weight in gold!
here's a link to the bushing kit with correctly bored sleeve included.
Last edited by Nuthuts96; 02-04-2009 at 04:16 PM.
02-05-2009, 12:44 PM
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Thanks Nuthuts96 but those numbers wont apply to me since my suspension is modified.
UPDATE:
Took it into the tech at my local Midas. Seems this guy has been modifying 4 wheeler suspensions for years. He knows his craft very well. He said the other shop probably didn't do anything but set the toe. He even took me into the shop to show me what he did on the computer screen with the 4runner in the air.
Once my rear coils settle the caster numbers will get better.
My caster went from a -2.3 on both sides to -0.8 Left and +0.4 right. This is correct due to the crown in the road. There has to be a differential. And the adjusters are all the way out. Close as it gets for now.
He got the camber set right and toe is good. Caster could be better but it will improve once the truck is level.
It handles so much better now. I went to my mechanic and he is never using that Goodyear shop again. He even gave me a refund. And then proceeded to go over to the shop and give them a piece of his mind. I just saved a lot of his future customers a lot of grief!
Question. Do the total chaos, camburg upper control arms help with getting the caster numbers better? Or are they strictly for another 1/2" (oh wow!) of droop?
UPDATE:
Took it into the tech at my local Midas. Seems this guy has been modifying 4 wheeler suspensions for years. He knows his craft very well. He said the other shop probably didn't do anything but set the toe. He even took me into the shop to show me what he did on the computer screen with the 4runner in the air.
Once my rear coils settle the caster numbers will get better.
My caster went from a -2.3 on both sides to -0.8 Left and +0.4 right. This is correct due to the crown in the road. There has to be a differential. And the adjusters are all the way out. Close as it gets for now.
He got the camber set right and toe is good. Caster could be better but it will improve once the truck is level.
It handles so much better now. I went to my mechanic and he is never using that Goodyear shop again. He even gave me a refund. And then proceeded to go over to the shop and give them a piece of his mind. I just saved a lot of his future customers a lot of grief!
Question. Do the total chaos, camburg upper control arms help with getting the caster numbers better? Or are they strictly for another 1/2" (oh wow!) of droop?
