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Old 02-22-2012, 06:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Meth/Water injection on a turbocharged 5VZ

So here we go... I have turbocharged lots of vehicles but I haven't used this stuff before. I have been reading up on it and there are so many variables it should be a fun project. That said it will be slow going at first as I am finishing up the paddle shift project and need to learn a bit more about it. Today I picked up a Aquamist system for the low price of $free. I hooked it up to a battery and the pump works, need to order an adjustable pressure switch and a reservoir so I can start playing.


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Old 02-22-2012, 08:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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NICE! I'm researching getting a kit as well for mine. I've been looking into putting a small nozzle pre-turbo to aid in spool up and top end, and a bigger nozzle post-turbo, on boost pressure switches. It would give me a way to add fuel by injecting meth with the water, without having to mess with hacking my ecu as well!

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Old 02-23-2012, 05:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You can also use the windshield washer reservoir with some modification.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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You will LOVE meth injection. If you can find pure methanol locally you can really turn the wick up on your motor with no worries.

While you can't beat free just some FYI, that old aquamist kit you have is, to put it bluntly, junk. they are horribly unreliable and do not like pure methanol. They also just don't work near as well as modern pumps.

Would be much better off with a modern kit. Either way though find some pure methanol locally if you can, this will make things much easier.

Like goat said use the stock washer fluid resivor, it makes things a lot easier. I have some videos in my sig showing how I did mine (although I redid it recently to make things better but the basic priceable applies).

For you I would recommend at a 10gph nozzle if you can get pure methanol, that will richen you up since I know you are running lean with the turbo. If you are stuck with washer fluid then you will need to use a smaller nozzle. Something in the ~5gph range depending on what fluid you go with.

Any questions feel free to ask, I have had a lot of experience with meth injection over the years, once you try it you will never go back. It is life changing on a boosted car when used properly.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I've been looking into putting a small nozzle pre-turbo to aid in spool up and top end, and a bigger nozzle post-turbo, on boost pressure switches.Subscribed!
I was also reading on pre-turbo setups but sounds scary if you don't get it just right, this is what I found "The water/methanol injection will dynamically shift the compressor map of the turbo so that it has the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo. This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo."

This is also a good point. "The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power."

And this "Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for great distribution to each cylinder."
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I was also reading on pre-turbo setups but sounds scary if you don't get it just right, this is what I found "The water/methanol injection will dynamically shift the compressor map of the turbo so that it has the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo. This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo."

This is also a good point. "The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power."

And this "Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for great distribution to each cylinder."
You are right on the pre-turbo injection. It works good but you have to get it just right not to damage anything. You need the nozzle to be as close to the turbo as possible for this to work and ensure that the droplets won't hit any of the piping walls as that will cause it to bead and that will damage the turbo.

Injecting before the IAT sensor is a good idea as well but in the case of our trucks the MAF sensor reading will get messed up if you do this due to the way the sensor works.

Lastly you are also correct that the further away from the engine you can put the nozzle the better.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Kind of a bummer you can't spray before the MAF, so in my case there is only one spot to put it then.

Also since my AFR's and intake air temps are good right now the only reason to even mess with meth injection is if I were to run more boost, guess I will order a boost controller too.

After more research I found that this pump was $644, looks like I can pick up a new complete kit from some places for around $250, so I might just Ebay this thing since it's missing some parts, not sure yet.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:49 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Kind of a bummer you can't spray before the MAF, so in my case there is only one spot to put it then.

Also since my AFR's and intake air temps are good right now the only reason to even mess with meth injection is if I were to run more boost, guess I will order a boost controller too.

After more research I found that this pump was $644, looks like I can pick up a new complete kit from some places for around $250, so I might just Ebay this thing since it's missing some parts, not sure yet.
You could get away with a small nozzle before the maf sensor as long as all the water/meth was fully atomized before the MAF. Easier to just run it after though.

What are your AFR's? If you are making any power over stock you should be pretty lean. supercharger with stock pulley @ ~6psi runs lean and needs more fuel to stay safe long term.

Without extra fuel my AFR's were in the 16:1+ range WOT (only know because I was testing 100% water injection to see how knock proof it was, even that lean it had no knock at all, also made no power but that was not the test lol).

You should still pick up some power even if your AFR's are ok due to the cooler temps and extra timing. Add some more boost to the mix and you should make some real nice power.

I would sell that kit and get a better one 100%. If you are looking for cheap the devils own Stage 1 kit is nice, the Coolingmist stage 1 also works well. Both will work FAR better then what you have.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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So local methanol is $130 for 55 gallons. Also I have unlimited quantities of this concentrate but I don't have a MSDS on it so not sure what's in it yet.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:49 AM   #10 (permalink)
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So local methanol is $130 for 55 gallons. Also I have unlimited quantities of this concentrate but I don't have a MSDS on it so not sure what's in it yet.

Click the image to open in full size.
Price is pretty good, I just paid $150 for a drum IIRC. For that price pick up a drum for sure. Not sure what that concentrate stuff is, smell it, if it really has a lot of methanol in it you will be able to smell it. Try lighting it on fire as well, doubt it will burn but try. If not then it is less then a 50/50 mix and I would get pure methanol so you know exactly what you are putting in there.

If you really want to get crazy get a progressive controller and use it like a 7th injector like I did. worked GREAT and I plan to do this again when I go turbo.

Think I paid $575 for the complete programmable progressive methanol injection kit + resivor ect. Heck of a deal when a 7th injector is $1000+ and made way less power.

100% methanol + progressive controller + 14gph or larger nozzle = LOTS of fun. That should be enough fuel to support around 100hp over the stock injectors depending on a few factors. More then enough oct to handle that power level as well.

If you want more power toss another nozzle on there although if you wanted to get that crazy you would need to make sure you have the right methanol kit parts but that is not a big deal.

I was running more timing with 12psi of boost on a supercharger then I am NA.
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My thoughts on Gun control summed up nice:
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Guns kill people like spoons make people fat
Quote:
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Im a firm believer in the saying "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them"
“Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.”

Last edited by Texas_Ace; 02-23-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Did some more research on pre-turbo injection on a MAF system where the MAF is after the turbo like mine. Did it using a .75gph nozzle at the turbo and a larger 5gph up front after the MAF. Since it would get atomized through the turbo and gets to travel a long distance, especially being a rear mount, I might just have to try it. And because of this bit of info, "Since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders."

The jug says it's just methanol and to add 12 parts water to 1 part concentrate.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Did some more research on pre-turbo injection on a MAF system where the MAF is after the turbo like mine. Did it using a .75gph nozzle at the turbo and a larger 5gph up front after the MAF. Since it would get atomized through the turbo and gets to travel a long distance, especially being a rear mount, I might just have to try it. And because of this bit of info, "Since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders."

The jug says it's just methanol and to add 12 parts water to 1 part concentrate.
Yep, I was considering much the same setup myself. It would work, although if running pure methanol with a progressive controller you will want a much larger main nozzle.

Well, just to make sure that it truly is methanol smell it first off and then try to light it. Make sure it passes both of those first then you can move on. If it passes those then you could try running it pure and see what happens.

Just make sure it doesn't have anything but methanol/water in it and a little dye (the dye can crystallize if let sit for too long in a meth injection system which is why I still prefer pure methanol.)
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My thoughts on Gun control summed up nice:
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Guns kill people like spoons make people fat
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Im a firm believer in the saying "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them"
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You two are gonna be best friends before this project is over with lol...
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You two are gonna be best friends before this project is over with lol...
LOL, contrary to popular belief I never had a problem with him to start with. I just speak my mind. I have fully supported his projects from the start minus a few minor points.
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My thoughts on Gun control summed up nice:
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Guns kill people like spoons make people fat
Quote:
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Im a firm believer in the saying "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them"
“Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.”
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Speaking of boosted engines, Ace where did you get your 2.0" pulley? My truck is running in the low 11's AFR range, which I think is too much fuel. I want to run a smaller pulley to even it out a bit. I have a URD 2.2" pulley now.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:49 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Speaking of boosted engines, Ace where did you get your 2.0" pulley? My truck is running in the low 11's AFR range, which I think is too much fuel. I want to run a smaller pulley to even it out a bit. I have a URD 2.2" pulley now.
The 2.0 was a super rare find, URD only made a handful of them. I just sold mine a little bit ago.

I think that some other company makes a 2.0 but I would not trust it to work properly as I had belt slip issues even with the URD version. I would get the URD 2.1" If I was you.

What are your exact AFR's? It makes the most power in the high 11's, you don't want to go much leaner then that as much above 12:1 the EGT's skyrocket and power drops off.
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All the Mods that can be done to 3rd Gens Thread

My thoughts on Gun control summed up nice:
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Guns kill people like spoons make people fat
Quote:
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Im a firm believer in the saying "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them"
“Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.”
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:17 AM   #17 (permalink)
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...so I might just Ebay this thing since it's missing some parts, not sure yet.
Post the link or PM me if you do, I'm running the Aquamist 2D system and might be interested in it for spare parts if the price is right.




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Old 02-24-2012, 12:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So it looks like either Devilsown or Coolingmist, both have a complete system for $250. Need to read more I guess to make a decision. TA, have you used both companies stuff? Comparable quality?


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Post the link or PM me if you do
Okay.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So it looks like either Devilsown or Coolingmist, both have a complete system for $250. Need to read more I guess to make a decision. TA, have you used both companies stuff? Comparable quality
Yep, both good company's, light years ahead of AEM and way nicer then snow and cheaper too.

They both work fine, they just do things a bit different. If using the stage 1 kit I like the devils own kit better personally just because the switch they use has been proven reliable vs the new switch the coolingmist is using not being so proven.

The devils own kit also comes with 2 nozzles vs the coolingmist 1 which is nice, it is a little cheaper too. The deviles own checkvalve is also nicer IF you will be using clean fluid. It's only weakness is that if you run dirty fluid through it, it can get dirty and "leak", it can be cleaned though.

If looking at progressive kits the coolingmist comes out way ahead with the CMGS, FAR nicer controller. Worth the extra money.

Both use the same Aquatech 5800 series pump ect so that is a non-issue.
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All the Mods that can be done to 3rd Gens Thread

My thoughts on Gun control summed up nice:
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Originally Posted by sdstud212001 View Post
Guns kill people like spoons make people fat
Quote:
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Im a firm believer in the saying "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them"
“Criminals love gun control; it makes their jobs safer.”
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Time to bring this thread back from the dead.

Where are you all mounting your pumps, or planning on putting them? I've tapped the bottom of my washer fluid reservoir today, but not really sure where to mount the pump.
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:18 PM
Yotatech
4WD Truck




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100, 34, 5vz, boost, charged, dual, fast, injection, liter, meth, pressure, reliability, spooling, toyota, turbo, turbocharge, v6, water

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