BajaRunner

Hey Guys

I figured that my axle is 3 inches pulled forward in the rear.

Does that seem about right with ~7" of lift?

Im thinking that I'll have someone locally weld on the endlinks to some longer tube. I want to have the lower control arms lengthened 3" while the uppers will be lengthened to 4" to rotate the pinion up a little bit.

Does anyone know the outer diameter of the stock links so I can figure out what tube to get?

Im thinking I just want to do this instead of leafs because I just dont have the experience to do a leaf swap. I don't think anything could really go wrong just by lengthening the links right?

Thanks for any input...

BajaRunner

Also when "sleeving" these, will I just cut the link in half, and slide the halfs down the new tube and weld the outside lips?

Napoleon047

IMO, that is a half-ass way of doing it. just have some new ones built from scratch.

we can build you new ones at the 4x4 shop where i work. do you want to keep using the stock rubber bushings or do you want heims or do you want flex joints or what?

you might as well build the lowers beefier as well.

BruceTS

The problem with making the links longer is the crossbar that the panhard bar attaches to will contact the diff housing......

Flygtenstein

Links have an art to them.

It is not "just" a plus and minus.

Napoleon is right. New ones are not going to break the bank, the rest of the rig is spendy.

BajaRunner

Napoleon047: Honestly, I would feel MUCH better to get them made by someone with more experience than me. I would definetly order some if you were interested.

If I didn't have to, I wouldnt mind using other endlinks rather than re-using my stock rod-ends.

I basically just want to place up my links, and slide a bolt through the holes on the link. Is that possible?

BruceTS: I my links are PULLING my axle towards the front of the vehicle. Placing them back 3" would be putting the axle back at stock location. I see where you are coming from if I were to compress the springs that there would be some interference?

Flygtenstein: I am still learning some things here. My first decision was to make longer links and new frame mounts. However I do not have enough experience to do that sort of fabrication. I have talked with some people who said that simply lengthening the links would solve some of my issues...

Flygtenstein

You are at a height where messing with stock stuff is pointless.

You want a big truck to drive good? Time to make big changes.

Cutting off your arm for a hang nail solves the hang nail problem.

Drastically changing any one part of the system means you ought to change all other parts. More height means longer lowers which jacks the pinion so you need adjustable uppers not to mention I assume all shock travel is compression...

BajaRunner

Well, the truck drives fine...

I dont see how lengthening the links would be harmful...Im just looking to relocate the axle back to center again.

What is the difference between making new frame mounts further in, and running even longer links? (besides getting a higher degree of travel).

I am going to put limiting straps, 12" travel shocks and relocate the upper shock mounts to a new crossmember...

Using basic trig I came up with the calculations. 3.186" on the lower control arms would place my axle back to center, and adding about 1.21" to the uppers would give me a good pinion angle.

These measurements don't seem that HUGE of change really.

I am going to plan on using different end-links instead of the stock ones.

Like you said too, this won't break the bank. If I feel this does nothing, I'll just switch to leafs!

Napoleon047

do you have a current side shot of the rig? how about a shot of the links and their current angle?

flytenstien is right, its not going to be a cure all for suspension issues, this wont drastically change the link geometry, but if your tire is rubbing on the front part of the fenderwell relocating it will fix that sort of issues.

we can make the lowers a fixed length and then make the uppers adjustable so you can set your pinion angle. we could also make them all adjustable too.

for a mainly DD rig, its generally best to use rubber bushings at the frame end to dampen vibration. the other end can be done with a rebuildable flex joint like what currie sells or a rebuildable jimmy joint for adjustability.

BajaRunner

Hey Napoleon,

Did you check your PM's?

Anyways, after looking around I found some info on the links and stuff. Steve had a nice writeup of how he switched to johnny joints instead of the heims..

Yeah the johnny joints look a little bit more of what Im looking for.

What about using Johnny joints on the frame end and the stock link on the other end? Buying 8 johnny joints @ $50 each seems a little pricey.

For the uppers, what links would be needed? Adjustability would be pretty sweet i would have to say.

As for a side shot I can take one today.

BajaRunner

Here's some pictures ... uhh kinda hard to get some good ones, I shoulda took one of the upper link.

BajaRunner

Hey Peter, your PM's are full

Napoleon047

sorry about that, i forgot that it saves the sent PMs too

TheTank

The main problem you run into with simply lengthening the upper and lower control arms without moving the front hanger forward is that you mess with the geometry that was set for rear suspension travel when it was stock. Lifting the rear 7" while using the same stock links causes the axle to be pulled forward at the high of a ride height, but upon compression, the axle is returned to center.

Imagine lengthening the lower links 3" using the same front hanger and compressing each side. That link is basically the radius of a circle, and making it 3" longer puts the axle back into the rear bumper and the lower portion of the quarter panel. With smaller tires it would not be as much of an issue because you would have a little more space to move that tire back in the wheel well. But with 285's you will be ripping that bumper off.

Think about it like this. The only reason to lengthen the links would be to place the axle back in the stock location at ride height, but what really will matter in the end is the compression that you get. The right way to do all of this would be to make some new front hangers that mount further forward effectively increasing the length of the control arms. Doing that makes the compression and extension angles much less severe over the amount of travel that your springs and shocks allow. A longer radius moves over a smaller given angle than a shorter radius.

Anyways, I'm dealing with the same issue, and just figured I'd give my input. I've pretty much decided on going to leafs because the amount of fabrication, time, and money that would go into such a project for a DD isn't worth it to me. And simply making longer links would cause more problems for you in the end that really could destroy your truck.

BajaRunner

I understand what you're talking about...

However don't you feel that making the axle centered when it is its ride height more important?

Just say that I was going to make new front "hangers" and pushed them forward 24".

Wouldnt I then measure out the links to make my axle centered under the wheel well?

Making the links sit at the longest state (or parallel to the frame) at ride height would be optimum, but, that would involve dropping the front hangers down a little and then remounting the axle mounts up to the top of the axle I guess.

Leafs are my first option because I know they would be sturdy... I actually am planning on buying a TRD Tacoma axle housing once I get paid and seting up some 63" chevy springs.

BajaRunner

Basically what Im saying si that I dont feel that my springs will allow enough compression to push my axle up high enough to stuff the wheel well.

Looking at my setup I can see making a front hanger near the x-fer case crossmember dropping it down 2" and flipping up the lower mounts to the top of the axle.

As for the uppers I have no clue where I could mount them.

Napoleon047

SC4runner, you are correct in the fact that you wont be able to compress the springs enough to stuff the wheel well.

we deal with more jeep TJ's than 4runners, but let me tell you, jeep copied the toyota design almost identically with regard to the links.

the tank is right in the best way to address the improper geometry is to extend the links dramatically and move their mounts. most people, however do not have either the skill or money to do such, so simply lengthening the links enough to relocate the axle and keep the coils vertical again is the cheapest and easist option next to leaves.

BajaRunner

While we're on the topic of springs...

Do the spacers that I have on the rear springs actually affect spring rate? As in, would I see a difference in stiffness if I ran a 1.5" spacer compared to a 3"?

I feel like it SHOULDN'T have any effect on the springrate, but, I remember running 2" cornfeds back there on my old OME 891's and they seemed stiffer?

If I keep the coils I am planning on dropping the rear down to about 5.5 to 6"...Im trying to figure out if I want to go with the "smaller" LC coils (8 wraps instead of 9) and keeping the 3" spacers. OR do I stick with my coils and get 1.5" spacers?


AHHHHH

TheTank

Yeah I understand moving hangers and making longer links and all that jazz is overwhelming and requires a lot of trial and error. That's why I've kind of decided to go the cheaper route with leaves and save some time in the end.

It's just simple math that with a longer link with the hanger moved forward the axle moves through a much smaller portion of the cirfumference of the circle than a shorter link would. This also causes the axle to stay much closer to the wheel well center line when compared to the movement a shorter link would require with your given amount of flex. I think in the end longer links result in a much smoother ride because the initial ride height angle is less severe than what the links are at right now. It turns into more of an "up and down" motion rather than a "front to back then up" motion like you and I have to deal with right now.

The other problem that we encounter the the link suspension and tall coils is the tendency of the axle to swing side to side without a properly setup panhard bar. The main problem I'm having with that right now is the driveshaft grinding into the gas tank, but I think leaf springs would help solve that problem in keeping the axle centered under the truck.

Just my opinion on it all. I've thought through it for a few months and that's the conclusion I've come to. The coils flex awesome, but the rear end just requires so much work that could end up costing me alot in the end when I could just go with proven leafs.

TheTank

Oh and about the coils. I really don't think that spacers have anything to do with spring rate. What I think does matter is that the bigger the spacer is, the more angle towards up and down it causes the lower links to ride at. Rather than the links riding level with truck and having a simple up and down motion like I said before, they are forced in a more rearward direction before moving up and I think that causes a rough ride. With OME 891 coils, my lower links ride at a pretty severe angle and contribute to the harsh ride.

As a result of the axle being pulled forward, the springs also sit pulled forward in the perches, until the axle is compressed which brings it back to the stock location.