ManyMods

I keep having this intermittent hard starting experience. It usually happens when the engine is warm/hot, but it has happened on a cold start. What happens on warm/hot starts is prolonged cranking and a strong raw fuel smell. On cold starts, it is just prolonged cranking and a mild sulphur smell. Any ideas on where to start looking for problems? Is there anyone at TRD who should be gathering information on the behavior of the new 7th injector kit?

Mad Chemist

How do the rest of the spark plugs look? Have you cleaned your throttle body lately? If you're smelling gas, sounds like you not getting a good spark and flooding the engine.

ManyMods

You know what, I always overlook the obvious. I gapped the plugs down to .035" (TRD calls for .032") and that could be it. I will pull a couple and take a look. Prior to the 7th injector I was at .042" on a hotter plug so maybe, as someone at NGK told me, just going down a size or two with the OE gap would be enough ... might even improve gas mileage a bit too.

Mad Chemist

Hope it works out for you, would be nice it was something that simple!

koda4

Manymods,
I too have the 7th injector and am experiencing a harder time starting vs before the 7th injector.
When I start in the morning, the engine needs to crank a lot more than before to start. It used to start in about 1 second of turning the key. Now, in the mornings I have to crank it for about 3 seconds before it starts.
Sometimes during the day it takes a little longer(1 1/2 seconds) also.
It always starts, just takes a little bit more cranking of the engine.

I will be taking it back to the dealer in about a week since they are the ones that installed it.

I called TRD and asked if there have been any complaints of hard starting after the 7th injector install and he(Paul) said there hasn't benn any.

You should call them also any say you are also have a harder time starting.

ManyMods

They will say that until the day they change their name to FORD. Give me a contact number for this guy Paul and I will call him. I will ask him if he has had any other complaints and when he says NO, I will ask to speak to his supervisor who is probably out shopping for a Mazda to soup up.

koda4

I cut & paste the following text from their web site for you:

You can contact the TRD Sport Parts Technical Assistance/Customer Service department at 800-688-5912 or trd_help@toyota.com to help you with your Toyota/TRD questions.

Gadget

It sounds like the same issue that people were having with the injectors from Maxx. I think it is a problem with the used injectors I heard he was selling as new injectors to people.

Anyway, it sounds like a leaky injector to me causing an over rich condition on hot starts. Since the 7th injector was the last thing as far as injectors go you can do an easy test. Start the engine and get it hot. Then shut it down and unbolt the 7th injector and pull it out far enough to see the tip. Watch and see if any fuel is dripping out of it while the engine sits. If so you have found your problem. If not, you got to keep looking...

Gadget

ManyMods

Thank you.
I hope someone else can get to this before me. I have no time before mid-March and I do not want my mechanic to do it. There is deffinitely something strange going on. The only way I can describe it is to say that sometimes it feels as though something is "sticking" or "hanging up".

MTL_4runner

Another way to check is if you mash the pedal to the floor when it is giving you fits to start and see if it starts then. If it is a leaky injector causing gas to puddle then the added airflow will allow the engine to fire right up. If it is something else, then it will continue to be hard to start despite pushing the pedal down.

ManyMods

I am just curious, how many with the SC and the 7th injector are:

1) using stock heat range plugs at factory gap (.043 - .044)?

2) using one colder heat range plugs at factory gap?

3) using two colder heat range plugs at factory gap?

The other options of course are to gap the plugs down to .032 - .035.

ManyMods

I pulled the one-step colder plugs gapped @ .035 and ... they were carbon fouling, not wet, just black around the base and at the base of the ground straps. So, as I think Mr. Gasket once advised, I gapped them up to the OEM gap again (.043). I think he uses two-step colder plugs but we'll see how this works for now.

MTL_4runner

hehehe...Mr Gasket.
First he's on Monster House....now this!....JK!

Anyway, I think you should use the OEM plugs and OEM gap (ie straight out of the box).
The engineers that designed the 7th injector likely designed it using that in mind to prevent the pinging.
Try a fresh set of plugs....run em for a bit.....then post a pic of one.
Maybe you can also post a pic of the carbon fouled one too.

ManyMods

Listen up Mr. Montreal
Your timing sucks.

I already took the plugs out, cleaned them and regapped them and they are back in preparation for me not to be able to start the car.

BUT, if the problem persists (hard starting that is) I will check them again and probably check the 7th injector and fuel pressure too.

TRD, in their infinite wisdom, clearly dictated in their oh so detailed instructions to go to a colder plug gapped at .032. Who are we to question TRD?

MTL_4runner

Just joshing you bud.

Sorry about the bad timing....
I am surprised that they called for a colder plug in their design.....did not know that.
Seems like maybe the colder plugs is overkill to suppress the pinging issue.
Do you have the colder thermostat in there too?


Have you tried to hook up the OBD to see what the sensors see when it has trouble starting?

ManyMods

Yeah I know, and back at ya.

TRD uses more bandaids than an EMT convention.

Me, use a colder thermostat? Does it cost 10 cents to make a call to Canada? Heck NO.

The car runs fine now and I should disconnect the battery but then I'd have to spend the next two days reprogramming my stereo music settings. :pat:

BTW, I use a Tektron fuel system additive in the tank about every month or so. If BMW recommends it, it is good enough for me.

MTL_4runner

Funny guy!

I think pulling the negative cable is a swell idea.....worth a shot anyway right?
If it worked for the tranny it must work for this problem too.

Techtron is great stuff and I use it to keep mine running in top health too.

I mut say I am quite disappointed with the design of the 7th injector.
It is very tough to band-aid a band-aid....just a nightmare to troubleshoot and no adjustment either!

koda4

I took my 4runner back to the dealer to solve the hard starting when cold problem. It looks like they solved the problem by changing the air filter and cleaning the MAF sensor. I don't know if its a coincidence that the hard starting problem started after they installed the 7th injector, but it seems to be fixed now. I've only had it back for one day so I will report back if that wasn't the fix.

ManyMods, maybe you too need the MAF sensor cleaned.

ManyMods

Well .....
My guess is that your problem will persist. I have not had a hicup since I regapped the plugs. However, I wish you success with what the dealer did for you. Thanks for thinking of me.

ManyMods

I just wanted to report back after over 700 miles of driving and numerous hot and cold starts to say that the hard starting condition is a thing of the past. It appears that the narrow gap was the culprit; however, what puzzles me now is the poor gas mileage I experienced during highway driving. Maybe it was the excess speeds I was averaging (75-80 mph), but 18.5 mpg really sucks.

Another thing I noticed is that sometimes when the vacuum is abnormally low, I have to blip or practically floor the accelerator before it returns to a normal range. It is almost like something is sticking within the intake path, but I have no idea what that could be, perhaps the waste gate?