ravencr

Okay, I've talked with a local fabrication shop, and here's what we've got in mind, and I wanted to get everyone's opinion first. Here's the plan:

There will be two spacers. One will be mounted right after the throttle body in between the S/C and throttle body just like the Helix Power tower. One injector will be placed in this location to cool the intake air as much as possible before entering the S/C intake. I know some people claim this isn't recommended, but there are thousands of people sending gas through superchargers to increase meet the extra fuel needs at boost. So, I don't think since when it rains we suck water in anyway, why a water methonal injection here would cause any trouble with any coating inside the S/C.

The next spacer will be located in between the S/C outlet and the engine's six ports going into the engine. Each port will have it's own injector to maintain a perfect mixture of water/methanol in each chamber.

Both these spacers will cause special brackets to be made for the higher location of the S/C, which will approximately be 1-1.25" higher.

So, instead of having to run the risk of getting metal shavings in the S/C after drilling two holes into the S/C for injectors, this way we can bolt it on and go.

I've still got to work out the specifics of the water injection equipment with aquamist to see how it's going to work for those with the SMT-6 and those without.

What does everyone think?

Chris

White SR5

Whoooooooo this sounds very exciting! I wouldn't feel too good about putting water in the engine but I don't know enough about it to give you any advice. Never heard anything wrong with running methanol though. You'll have to get an extra A/C compressor and have that blow cold air into the intake too. I can't wait to hear how it works out!
Zach

ravencr

Well, the plan is to use a cooling system to keep the methonal/water mixture just above it's freezing point, then it's injected at such high pressure that it vaporizes and really cools the charged air down. It doesn't hurt the engine at all this way, but if it was in liquid form it could easily vapor lock the motor, which I'm sure you've hear about.

The potential for this system, after discussing with many people, could be in the neighborhood of an extra 75 HP to the wheels, which could easily mean over 300rwhp on a 4runner. How fun would that be? This would be achieved by being able to use a smaller pulley, which would produce the necessary boost to achieve those levels of power. We'll see!

Chris

paxam

I would like to see dyno graphs when they are available.
is there a aprox price yet?
thanks

ravencr

Yes, that will be the true test, of course. As far as prices, don't know yet, but I wanted to start feeling out what everyone thought to help through the process.

Chris

03TundraTRD

What about an intercooler can one of these be custom made for the TRD S/C. Also with the water/methanol are you gonna spray it like No2 or is like having an intercooler w/ a constant supply of a cooler air charge.

ravencr

I don't know much about how intercoolers work, so I'm sticking with water injection. The water/methanol will be injected at a rate of 20-25% of the fuel being injected starting at 3psi up to full boost. The potential cooling could be better than an intercooler from what I understand.

Chris

Gadget

Interesting.

A couple of things. What size nozzels are you planning on putting in each runner? Two .5 mm nozzles where going to flow plenty of water in my original plan, so how much smaller do they make them to divide that flow into 6?

1 1/2" increase in height is not going to work at all. It will make a big mess when you close the hood.

75 hp increase from water??? Never. Of course I could be wrong.

Gadget

www.GadgetOnline.com

ravencr

I was hoping you'd chime in. As far as nozzle size I'm not sure yet. I'll have to test the height thing if you're saying that 1.5" is too much. I didn't know it was that close to the hood, but we'll see. The increase in HP will not come directly from the water injection, but rather indirectly, by decreasing the temps low enough to possibly run up to an 11 psi pulley, which in turn actually will create the extra HP directly. Both have to work in conjunction to make it happen, because as we know, the smaller pulleys by themselves aren't worth a hill of beans because of the additional heat created, which reduces it's effeciency. More to come.

Chris

midiwall

You can always fab a full scoop for the top of the supercharger, cut a hole in the hood and turn the whole tower into a blower.

ravencr

Yeah, I'm not too worried about the height problem. Plus most folks like the look of the factory hood scoop.

Chris

Duffdog

when you say water injection--- you dont actually mean spraying liquid water into the cylinders do you?? I had a similar design that incorporated using sealed pipes which are perpendicular to the airflow-- these sealed pipes are then pumped with water in one direction through an intercooler, where the water is cooled off. As the water leaves the area between the supercharger and the intake manifold, it takes heat with it. But that heat must be dissipated or the entire system heats up. So what you do is spray the front mounted intercooler with either water or alcohol, this evaporates and takes the heat from the water into the atmosphere.

this is how they do it on the WRX STi. there is a tank in the trunk you must fill with water that is sprayed on the intercooler to cool it off.

Tim

cstary

i don't know who these thousands of people are that you are talking about. i do know that Eaton has specifically said that spraying water or gasoline or any solvent through the s/c will pit the epoxy coating on the impellers. that might not have a functional consequence, but it's from the mouth of law in my opinion. i'm not going to do it. also, i'm pretty sure there's not any significant amount of water being sucked in when it rains (at least not any amount comparable to injecting 260 cc/min, which is the amount you should at WOT).

i think it won't work. my s/c already rubs the lining inside the hood. i have a hood scoop. another inch and the hood wouldn't close. also, you have to contend with possible limitations in the amount the alternator pulley can move to accomodate the extra length.


that would be nice. another option is to take an etra half an hour and remove the s/c entirely and just drill into it. drill close enough to the intake manifold in the discharge plenum, and there won't be any problem with metal shavings. those of us with first gens can just remove the plenum and drill into that.


aha . . . here you go . . . this is my plan that is going into effect next week (yes, after 6 months of dilly-dallying . . . including wrecking my truck and starting over).

the main components are a shurflo pump (i think it's a #2687, 1.4 gpm @ 60 psi- $60), an aquamist HSV solenoid ($130), a 3-way direct acting solenoid ($30), and some extras (MacmasterCarr nozzles, tubing, 30 amp relay, etc.), and the SMT.

basically, the pump comes on when the car starts, and is constantly on when the car is on. when no water injection is needed, the flow of water is from the resevoir to the pump, through the 3-way solenoid, and back to the resevoir.

when water injection is needed, there is an output signal generated from the SMT6 (auxilliary out trigger) that switches the 3-way solenoid so that flow is from the resevoir, to the pump, to the HSV, and to the spray nozzle(s).

the SMT6, as you know, has injector driver capabilities. these are determined according to manifold absolute pressure (given that you have installed na aftermatket MAP sensor, which i have), TPS and RPM . . . pretty good resolution for an injection map i think. the injector driven in this case is the HSV, which will basically act as flow control, according to the engine parameters above.

two nozzles (rated at about 150 cc/min @60 psi) will be installed permanently in the s/c discharge plenum. i am not too concerned about this installation. even if the whole plan fails, who cares if i have these nozzles in the plenum? anyhow, that's the plan. the core of the idea revolves around the Aquamist HSV for flow control (and, or coursem the SMT to drive the HSV) - supply the HSV with enough water pressure, and you should be off and running . . . . .

this is actually the only reason i am still running the SMT6 with all of its timing-control headaches i've had to deal with. hopefully it will work, and then i won't have to retard timing anyway!

creed

cstary

yes - spraying into the cylinders. at 20% of fuel flow during boost at high RPM. a very established and proven method. water has an infinite octane . . . you slow the burn and eliminate pre-detonation. the expansion of volume when the water vaporizes in the chamber should also add to the increase in HP. also, in this application, you are are going to see benefits from phsyically cooling the discharge gas from the s/c (which is the factor you are addressing above in your proposed method).

creed

cstary

MacmasterCarr makes 50 cc/min @ 60 psi nozzles, so that's not a problem. he would have to fab some sort of fuel rail equivalent, though, to equilibrate the pressure going to each nozzle, otherwise he's going to get an unequal distribution in his model.

creed

ravencr

Good info guys! For some reason I never got an email notification, so that's why I'm just getting it. Creed, let us know how it all works out for you. I guess if everything wors out goo for you, I probably won't even mess with it from there. Let us know!

Chris

Gadget

I am not framilure with you componants. How do you modulate the water flow? It sounds like your system is either going to be spraying at max capacity or it is off.

Gadget

www.GadgetOnline.com

ravencr

I think the SMT-6 works off manifold pressure, so it will be proportional to the boost level, right?

Chris

cstary

the aquamist HSV is what controls flow in the aquamist setup. basically, it's a high frequency solenoid . . . a fuel injector. the SMT has fuel injector-driver capabilities, that varies the duty cycle at a resolution of 255 steps, based on TPS, RPM and MAP.

the flow will definitely not be just on or off. the pressure supplied to the HSV will be on or off (controlled by the 3-way solenoid, directing flow either to the HSV or bypassed back to the resevoir), but once water pressure is supplied to the HSV, the actual flow will be goverened by the SMT and HSV in 255 increments.

in theory, this should work. the question, though, is if i can get the system to work. the ignition functions of the SMT don't work on my truck, so maybe the injector driver capability won't either.

creed

PhxTRDRunner

Wouldn't it be just as easy to throw on a 75 shot of n20? Otherwise this water system will have to be running all the time ~ as your smaller pulley will be on all the time. The reason the water injection works so good with turbocharging is because you can continuously change boost levels to meet your current needs, and thus you can then turn on your water/alc. system to cool the increased charge down. There are a few running a N20 system here, and guess what, they see about 75hp and they have it when they need it. Also, a kit is already produced and easy to install. Not to bag on your idea, I just think there's several holes in your logic. Not only are you going to have to *fill* your water resevior, but what if something malfunctions and you have good old H20 entering the chambers or no cooling at all? You'll still have that 11psi pulley on, but a super hot shot of air coming down the pike. If you are already thinking about building a manifold to go between the SC and intake plenum, then you are half way to building an intercooler setup which would be million times better for reliability and make the same power/cooling ratio.


Just my .01 cent.

~Ralph