Ball Joints and Idler Arm
11-12-2005, 03:43 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ball Joints and Idler Arm
My local shop several months ago informed me the lower ball joints and idler arm were "bad". We're talking about a 95, T100, 4x4 suspension.
The mechanic thought there was too much play in the joints and arm.
I finally got a chance to lift the truck today and took a closer look with a friend who's got plenty of experience with auto repair.
Problem we are having is actually telling the ball joints/idler arm are defective in any way.
I don't have uneven wear on my front tires showing, and the steering does not feel out of alignment when driving.
Can anyone give me some advice as to how to tell for sure if I have a problem?
Thanks.
The mechanic thought there was too much play in the joints and arm.
I finally got a chance to lift the truck today and took a closer look with a friend who's got plenty of experience with auto repair.
Problem we are having is actually telling the ball joints/idler arm are defective in any way.
I don't have uneven wear on my front tires showing, and the steering does not feel out of alignment when driving.
Can anyone give me some advice as to how to tell for sure if I have a problem?
Thanks.
11-12-2005, 03:54 PM
#2
Contributing Member
I took my '93 4Runer in to have the "4WD" service done (diffs, transfer case, etc). They diagnosed a bad idler and Pittman arms - so I would be interested in hearing y'alls opinion too...
11-12-2005, 04:12 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's pretty low-tech. Any of the ball joints - on the end of the steering arm, idler arm, tie rod ends, and upper and lower ball joints. Helps to have 2 people. First off, grab hold of whatever you can and do the twist and jerk and watch the joints one by one. They should be able to swivel, but should feel firm not loose and should not have any "play." Watch and even feel for any "clunk." Have a helper rock the steering wheel back and forth while you observe the joints in the steering system one by one. Place your finger on them and feel for a thunk. Place a jack under the center crossmember and unload the suspension. Grab a tire and pull it back and forth firmly, again checking each joint.
For the suspension ball joints, jack up a tire just a little off the ground and place a bar under it. Lever it up and down firmly while you observe (and feel) the upper and lower joint. Same for other side. Should be tight.
A simple rule of thumb for telling about ball joints if you lack experience is, if you think it might be loose or moving, it probably is. They should look and feel tight. They should only swivel and have no play in them.
Just to make it more complicated, on mine when I did the steering wheel back and forth test, the connecting rod (between the left and right tie rods) rotated a lot. Seemed like way too much. I grabbed it and could rotate it almost effortlessly. But there was no "clunk." I replaced the idler arm and steering arm and it made a huge difference. They were apparently worn, but not so much they clunked. Technically they probably didn't need replaced. (Well - the idler arm bushing was actually loose, I was gonna replace it anyway.)
Hope this helps. Others will likely chime in with other/ more helpful suggestions.
For the suspension ball joints, jack up a tire just a little off the ground and place a bar under it. Lever it up and down firmly while you observe (and feel) the upper and lower joint. Same for other side. Should be tight.
A simple rule of thumb for telling about ball joints if you lack experience is, if you think it might be loose or moving, it probably is. They should look and feel tight. They should only swivel and have no play in them.
Just to make it more complicated, on mine when I did the steering wheel back and forth test, the connecting rod (between the left and right tie rods) rotated a lot. Seemed like way too much. I grabbed it and could rotate it almost effortlessly. But there was no "clunk." I replaced the idler arm and steering arm and it made a huge difference. They were apparently worn, but not so much they clunked. Technically they probably didn't need replaced. (Well - the idler arm bushing was actually loose, I was gonna replace it anyway.)
Hope this helps. Others will likely chime in with other/ more helpful suggestions.
11-12-2005, 07:33 PM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Flamedx4!
When I tried this earlier today, I moved the tire back and forth and couldn't see anything abnormal. I was basically exercising the steering system.
What I didn't do was push and pull evenly on the tire (pushing in and pulling out and thus creating the jerks you mentioned).
I bet this is what the shop may have done to see the "play" they warned me about.
I'll have to get back on this tomorrow or next weekend and try your suggestions out.
When I tried this earlier today, I moved the tire back and forth and couldn't see anything abnormal. I was basically exercising the steering system.
What I didn't do was push and pull evenly on the tire (pushing in and pulling out and thus creating the jerks you mentioned).
I bet this is what the shop may have done to see the "play" they warned me about.
I'll have to get back on this tomorrow or next weekend and try your suggestions out.
11-13-2005, 11:07 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A fingertip placed on the joint can detect play you can't see.
Any manual (Haynes etc) will have info on checking the steering and balljoints, but it's pretty much just what I wrote above.
Any manual (Haynes etc) will have info on checking the steering and balljoints, but it's pretty much just what I wrote above.
11-13-2005, 12:24 PM
#7
Contributing Member
My experience with ball joints and Idler/Pitman arms
A couple of things to note:
Ball joints can be bad without seeming to have play in them. I just got through working with OutdoorFever (Kyle) on his front end, trying to get rid of all the loose stuff. First time we checked, we thought the ball joints were A-OK. We replaced the obvious problem joints: a tie rod end that was loose and a CV joint that was dry (badly busted boot). This helped a lot but there was still a bad noise in the front end when he went over rough spots in the road.
His mechanic had told him the ball joints, pitman arm, and idler arm were bad. So we took a second look at the ball joints.
How to check your ball joints:
Remove the steering spindle (the assembly between the Upper and Lower ball joints). Yes, that's a lot of work. See a writeup here that involves removing the spindle.
With the steering spindle removed, you can rotate the upper or lower ball joint with just your hands. And you will probably have to grab them with both hands, they should be hard to move (especially the bottom ones). But, they have to be smooth. Replace them if they have kinks or catches or don't have full range of movement.
NOTE: Removing the spindle gives you the most access to the ball joints. But, you don't have to completely remove the spindle, if you don't want to. This would keep you from having to pull the axle out of the steering spindle, and keep your job a lot cleaner.
To do it the easy way, just spread the upper & lower A arms (control arms) far enough apart to work on the ball joints. Be sure you have unbolted the ball joints before you try to spread the A arms. I used a hydraulic jack placed between the two A arms.
"Your Idler Arm is 'BAD'"
Now, anyone who tells you your pitman arm or idler arm is bad, is probably either a) smoking crack, b) taking about the joints at the end of the pitman/idler arm, or c) you seriously abused your truck, causing a big hunk of metal to fail.
Most likely, if there is something wrong with the idler arm, it is the idler arm bushing which is worn out.
If the pitman arm has a problem on the same end, it's the steering gearbox! :pat: Let's hope not.
On the other end of the idler/pitman arms is a ball joint similar to the joints on the ends of tie rod ends. These can go out, and I think the only way to replace them is to replace the whole arm. Therefore, your mechanic could be saying the arm is bad when it's really just this joint... Ask them to please quit smoking crack, or, if they mean the joint is bad, just say so.
Ball joints can be bad without seeming to have play in them. I just got through working with OutdoorFever (Kyle) on his front end, trying to get rid of all the loose stuff. First time we checked, we thought the ball joints were A-OK. We replaced the obvious problem joints: a tie rod end that was loose and a CV joint that was dry (badly busted boot). This helped a lot but there was still a bad noise in the front end when he went over rough spots in the road.
His mechanic had told him the ball joints, pitman arm, and idler arm were bad. So we took a second look at the ball joints.
How to check your ball joints:
Remove the steering spindle (the assembly between the Upper and Lower ball joints). Yes, that's a lot of work. See a writeup here that involves removing the spindle.
With the steering spindle removed, you can rotate the upper or lower ball joint with just your hands. And you will probably have to grab them with both hands, they should be hard to move (especially the bottom ones). But, they have to be smooth. Replace them if they have kinks or catches or don't have full range of movement.
NOTE: Removing the spindle gives you the most access to the ball joints. But, you don't have to completely remove the spindle, if you don't want to. This would keep you from having to pull the axle out of the steering spindle, and keep your job a lot cleaner.
To do it the easy way, just spread the upper & lower A arms (control arms) far enough apart to work on the ball joints. Be sure you have unbolted the ball joints before you try to spread the A arms. I used a hydraulic jack placed between the two A arms.
"Your Idler Arm is 'BAD'"
Now, anyone who tells you your pitman arm or idler arm is bad, is probably either a) smoking crack, b) taking about the joints at the end of the pitman/idler arm, or c) you seriously abused your truck, causing a big hunk of metal to fail.
Most likely, if there is something wrong with the idler arm, it is the idler arm bushing which is worn out.
If the pitman arm has a problem on the same end, it's the steering gearbox! :pat: Let's hope not.
On the other end of the idler/pitman arms is a ball joint similar to the joints on the ends of tie rod ends. These can go out, and I think the only way to replace them is to replace the whole arm. Therefore, your mechanic could be saying the arm is bad when it's really just this joint... Ask them to please quit smoking crack, or, if they mean the joint is bad, just say so.
Trending Topics
11-13-2005, 01:09 PM
#8
Contributing Member
Ohhhhhhh - thanks injohneer. I will DEFINITELY take it somewhere for a second opinion.
They had quoted $112 for the Pitman arm and $181 for the idler (plus another $175 for installation) - which seems awful steep for ends/bushings.
They had quoted $112 for the Pitman arm and $181 for the idler (plus another $175 for installation) - which seems awful steep for ends/bushings.
11-13-2005, 04:51 PM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tc, you are being quoted full MSRP for the parts!
You can definately get the parts cheaper via the web on sites mentioned in many threads here on yotatech.
I got my parts from https://www.1sttoyotaparts.com
I got both sets of upper and lower ball joints plus the idler arm.
My plan was to replace the idler completely and refab the existing idler arm bushing which would give me a spare arm for the future.
When I was told the lower ball joints had play, I figured the upper joints were not too far behind. My guess is that the joints are all original parts with 108k miles on them.
There is a recall on 2nd gen relay rods so the only remaining pieces are the tie rod ends.
I'll have to look at the tie rod ends with the feedback given on this thread to see if they may need replaced.
I'll do all the work and then take the truck in to the stealership for the relay rod replacement and let them align it all as part of the recall.
You can definately get the parts cheaper via the web on sites mentioned in many threads here on yotatech.
I got my parts from https://www.1sttoyotaparts.com
I got both sets of upper and lower ball joints plus the idler arm.
My plan was to replace the idler completely and refab the existing idler arm bushing which would give me a spare arm for the future.
When I was told the lower ball joints had play, I figured the upper joints were not too far behind. My guess is that the joints are all original parts with 108k miles on them.
There is a recall on 2nd gen relay rods so the only remaining pieces are the tie rod ends.
I'll have to look at the tie rod ends with the feedback given on this thread to see if they may need replaced.
I'll do all the work and then take the truck in to the stealership for the relay rod replacement and let them align it all as part of the recall.
11-13-2005, 04:57 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I paid $171 for both idler arm and pitman arm at the local auto parts store.
They are easy to install.
I paid $5.95 and $7.95 for pullers (different sizes) at Harbor Freight. A pickle fork will work too.
They are easy to install.
I paid $5.95 and $7.95 for pullers (different sizes) at Harbor Freight. A pickle fork will work too.
11-13-2005, 05:18 PM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Flamedx4
I paid $171 for both idler arm and pitman arm at the local auto parts store.
They are easy to install.
I paid $5.95 and $7.95 for pullers (different sizes) at Harbor Freight. A pickle fork will work too.
They are easy to install.
I paid $5.95 and $7.95 for pullers (different sizes) at Harbor Freight. A pickle fork will work too.
It's good to know the parts work prior to ordering.
11-13-2005, 09:45 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1,475
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Ball joints and the idler arm according to my suspension shop (and they are a reputable honest shop with reasonable rates and the owner also owns my exact truck model too) are the two main wear items they look for. They are pretty reliable but they do go over time. They will take abuse though but like I said they'll wear on ya.
I had them install an idler arm brace and I think that'll really help with the longetivity of it.
I had them install an idler arm brace and I think that'll really help with the longetivity of it.
11-14-2005, 10:48 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 100 miles offshore as much as possible, & Springfield Oregon USA
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mach4
Can you give us the HF part numbers for the pullers you got?
It's good to know the parts work prior to ordering.
It's good to know the parts work prior to ordering.
I toss the packages soon as I open things. Since I walk into HF rather than order on-line - no records.
11-20-2005, 05:01 PM
#14
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok so I'm working on removing my lower ball joints.
I got the lower control loose from ball joint with an SST.
I've also removed all 4 14 mm bolts out on top of the joint.
All the nuts and cotter pin are out but the ball joint is still in there tight!
Any tricks to removing this thing?
I got the lower control loose from ball joint with an SST.
I've also removed all 4 14 mm bolts out on top of the joint.
All the nuts and cotter pin are out but the ball joint is still in there tight!
Any tricks to removing this thing?
11-20-2005, 05:10 PM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mach4
Ok so I'm working on removing my lower ball joints.
I got the lower control arm loose from ball joint with an SST.
I've also removed all 4 14 mm bolts out on top of the joint/steering spindle.
All the nuts and cotter pin are out but the ball joint is still in there tight!
Any tricks to removing this thing?
I got the lower control arm loose from ball joint with an SST.
I've also removed all 4 14 mm bolts out on top of the joint/steering spindle.
All the nuts and cotter pin are out but the ball joint is still in there tight!
Any tricks to removing this thing?
11-20-2005, 08:06 PM
#16
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, had to retreat for the night.
I need something to drive to work tomorrow so I put it all back together.
This one got the best of me so far!
How do you get the top of the ball joint loose?
I was able to move the control arm but the top of the ball joint would not budge.
Since I haven't done this before, I'm not sure I want to take a sledge hammer to the spindle area.
Hopefully someone has some ideas.
Thanks.
I need something to drive to work tomorrow so I put it all back together.
This one got the best of me so far!
How do you get the top of the ball joint loose?
I was able to move the control arm but the top of the ball joint would not budge.
Since I haven't done this before, I'm not sure I want to take a sledge hammer to the spindle area.
Hopefully someone has some ideas.
Thanks.
11-21-2005, 11:01 AM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just did the ball joints, tie rod ends, pitman arm, and idler pulley.
You have to use some type of puller for these! They are in there! I used the pullers from Harbor freight. The tie rod puller worked great, it is the smaller one. I broke two of the ball joint pullers before going to Auto Zone and renting one. They look the exact same, but are apparently different quality.
For my upper ball joints I had to remove the steering arm from the hub assembly. You might get away with not doing this if you are using a pickle fork, but my ball joints were stronger than my pickle fork.
Hope this helps.
Anthony
You have to use some type of puller for these! They are in there! I used the pullers from Harbor freight. The tie rod puller worked great, it is the smaller one. I broke two of the ball joint pullers before going to Auto Zone and renting one. They look the exact same, but are apparently different quality.
For my upper ball joints I had to remove the steering arm from the hub assembly. You might get away with not doing this if you are using a pickle fork, but my ball joints were stronger than my pickle fork.
Hope this helps.
Anthony
11-21-2005, 05:02 PM
#18
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After thinking about it some more and emailing Injohneer, I think my problem was that the ball joint was still under load when I lifted the truck.
Reading a few 4x4 forum entries on the subject, I need to unload the joints prior to lifting the truck by inserting a piece of wood or a socket in between the bump stop and the upper control arm.
I guess I'm not really sure where the "bump stop" is in relation to the control arm, but the idea is to unload the joints anyway possible.
Should be able to remove upper and lower joints without messing with the hub, spindle, or nuckles. We'll see.
I'll have to try again over the holiday weekend!
Reading a few 4x4 forum entries on the subject, I need to unload the joints prior to lifting the truck by inserting a piece of wood or a socket in between the bump stop and the upper control arm.
I guess I'm not really sure where the "bump stop" is in relation to the control arm, but the idea is to unload the joints anyway possible.
Should be able to remove upper and lower joints without messing with the hub, spindle, or nuckles. We'll see.
I'll have to try again over the holiday weekend!
11-25-2005, 11:18 PM
#19
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update...
Success!
Thanks to Injohneer's suggestions, I was able to replace both lower ball joints today.
I unloaded the joints by placing a small piece of wood in between the bump stop area and the upper control arm. Put the pieces of wood in on both sides before lifting the truck.
I think that allowed me to loosen the bottom part of the ball joint with a tie rod puller a little better. Also untightened the upper 4 bolts at this point and used a small pry bar to loosen the top of the ball joint with very little force.
Then used Injohneer's bottle jack idea to spread the upper and lower arms enough to pull the ball joint out and slip the new one in. Unloading the bottle jack before inserting the new bolts helps align the new joint better as it drops into place.
Success!
Thanks to Injohneer's suggestions, I was able to replace both lower ball joints today.
I unloaded the joints by placing a small piece of wood in between the bump stop area and the upper control arm. Put the pieces of wood in on both sides before lifting the truck.
I think that allowed me to loosen the bottom part of the ball joint with a tie rod puller a little better. Also untightened the upper 4 bolts at this point and used a small pry bar to loosen the top of the ball joint with very little force.
Then used Injohneer's bottle jack idea to spread the upper and lower arms enough to pull the ball joint out and slip the new one in. Unloading the bottle jack before inserting the new bolts helps align the new joint better as it drops into place.
01-05-2006, 05:28 AM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was thinking that these parts of my truck were starting to wear out now that I have close to 200k mi on my 97 Runner. My truck still rides pretty well, the alignment feels pretty good but I do notice that there is a bit more road noise coming from my front tires. I know this may probably be due to the tires wearing down though. What other symptoms am I looking for with worn ball joints? Thanks.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
kawazx636
The Classifieds GraveYard
34
10-06-2021 03:03 PM
FS[MidWest]: 1.5" ball joint spacers
4x4YOTA
Axles - Suspensions - Tires - Wheels
2
08-23-2016 09:08 AM
JookUpVandetti
86-95 Trucks & 4Runners
10
09-30-2015 08:58 AM
FS[SouthCent]: TX - 4Crawler Ball Joint spacers
crash813
Axles - Suspensions - Tires - Wheels
0
09-27-2015 07:15 AM
Odin
86-95 Trucks & 4Runners
3
09-26-2015 06:56 PM
