pdxrunner

Latest info is they sent the injectors off to be tested and they were okay. The next thing they did was they got a pressurized canister of fuel that they could adjust the pressure to spec and see what happens.

They found that if the fuel pressure was exactly at spec, it ran fine, anything above or below the specified pressure caused this problem where it was running really rough.

They now think that it might be the Fuel Pressure Regulator. They have one of those on order and will get it in next week sometime.

--> Gadget -->

Thanks for your information. I also visited your website and read about some of the issues you've had with your 4runner. I'm begining to think that maybe the Fuel Upgrade Kit might not be a bad idea. The issue here is that it is under warranty. This is an issue that they should be able to solve. I don't know if we'll ever get Toyota to pay for that kit to truly fix these problems that I am seeing.

I'll have more information next week sometime.

Thanks for the posts, everyone.

Gadget

I am at a loss to understand how they can check the fuel pressure and find that it is on spec, but then at the same time they think it is a bad fuel pressure regulator and want to throw a new on at the problem. I don't see how this approach could possibly make any sense to anyone outside of a Toyota dealership.

The question remains the same. Where is the extra fuel coming from and why? This is not that damn complicated. The diagnostic tree in the FSM is not that long and it does not call for replacing good parts with good parts.

They need to simply find out if the injectors are being commanded to open to long by the ECU or not. This should take about an hour to figure out.

Anyway, the URD fuel upgade kit should not be considered for something like this. Our kit works with the stock system and if the stock system is whacked our stuff is not going to help that one bit.

Gadget

pdxrunner

I'll contact my service rep this week and make these suggestions to him. Obviously, throughout this whole process, I haven't been very impressed with this dealership. The only thing that has been good is that they keep working on it.

I'm not nearly as knowledgable with vehicles as others so posting on here was my way of saying, "Help! Does this sound right to you guys."

The answer I'm getting is, "Not really." They keep throwing parts at it hoping that the problem will be fixed. The sad thing is that it keeps costing them money. They'll get the new fuel pressure regulator in and see that it has no effect. Then they'll need to go back to the drawing board again.

It sounds like they had an engineer from toyota come out and take a bunch of readings and they are in "close contact" with the service dept giving them some advice. The engineers with Toyota have told them that they think this would be the next step.

Sounds squirrely to me too. Maybe it's time I try and get involved in some capacity. When you say, "The diagnostic tree in the FSM is not that long and it does not call for replacing good parts with good parts."

What is an FSM? Where can I see what the diagnostic tree looks like?

I really appreciate all of your help, Gadget.

Thanks,
Patrick

Lone4runner

FSM =Factory service manual : )

Ironmike4x4

If it came to the point where the engineers had to come then it's about time for them to buy the truck back. About 8 months ago we had a deisel that kept billowing blue smoke. "No problem." Said our Master Tech. It's some sort of coolant leak. He checked the intake, tore it down check the cylinders and could not find the coolant leak. About 2 mind numbing months later the tech finally called for a GM engineer too look at it. The tech had the engine in and out of the truck twice and the engineer still coudn't figure it out so GM "bought" back the vehicle and gave the customer a brand new one at a lower cost. If they can't figure it out then press for a new truck to make up for all of your lost time.

pdxrunner

The latest is that I've been able to track down the number for a regional office here in Portland, Oregon and got in touch with a service representative to see if we can put some pressure on the dealer to fix the problem.

I also planted a seed about a buy-back scenario and that I'd be willing to entertain ideas in that domain as well.

The guy was very nice, said that he would be in touch with the dealership and figure out the best way to proceed. He said that he'd be back in touch with me and gave me his direct contact line in case I didn't hear back from him.

One of the interesting things that he asked was if we had any other Toyota's. I was proud to say that I also owned a 2004 Toyota Prius (my wife's car) and that seemed to make him happy. They love the loyalty aspect of cars. The fact that we are a 2 Toyota family might grease the wheels a bit more too.

I'll post more when I know more.

pdxrunner

Just spoke with service rep again. He claims that the new Fuel Pressure regulator seems to have had a positive effect on the hesitation I was experiencing, but the engine seems to have the occassional misfire.

They are looking into the cause of that problem now.

Stay tuned...

Ironmike4x4

Can't wait to find out what the final diagnosis comes out to be The saga continues....

pdxrunner

I spoke with the Customer Satisfaction representative (or something like that) at the Dealership. At this point, he recommends that I begin the process for arbitration. I contacted the Toyota customer care folks and had them send arbitration papers to me to begin the process. At this point, I must send the paperwork back to them before the process actually begins. He claims that they will continue working on it, but I really don't expect much.

The more I think about it, even if they contact me and tell me that they've "fixed" the problem...again...I might go through with this arbitration process and attempt to have it bought back from me. This car is essentially a lemon, is it not?

At this point, from today, arbitration would take the better part of 2 months to complete. Toyota would be bound by the findings of the arbitration panel, but I would not. If they issued an unreasonable recommendation, I could decline it and pursue other options, like retaining the services of a lawyer....and hey, my father-in-law is an attorney!

The latest recommendation from the "engineers" was to drain the gas tank completely and put new gas in it and see if the problem still exists. This is a collosal waste of time. They've already isolated that part of the system. They put fuel in a pressurized canister and were able to demonstrate the same problem. THIS IS ENFURIATING! When they told me they were going to do that next, I asked them, "What is that going to accomplish, if we've already isolated that the gas wasn't the problem?" He told me, and get this, "I honestly have no idea." IDIOTS!

This has already cost Toyota ~$6000 in parts and labor and loaner vehicle costs.

At what point do we just cash our chips in and start over? It just makes no sense!!

pdxrunner

Service advisor just phoned me to let me know that they think they have it fixed. I don't believe them. He told me that they put in another new set of fuel injectors and have it running really well. He hasn't told me anything about the misfirings and how they resolved that. He also told me that they had sent the other fuel injectors off to be tested and they came back just fine, so why would ANOTHER new set of injectors fix it, especially when they tested fine?

These are some of the questions I am going to ask when I go to pick it up today.

I just don't believe that another set of fuel injectors resolved this problem. They also swapped the fuel pressure regulator this visit to the repair shop.

He said that they were going to road test it for about an hour and then bring it back in and run some further checks on it to make sure it is running well and then he'd call me back.

Stay tuned...

pdxrunner

Just as I suspected, another set of injectors made no difference. After not hearing back from my service advisor for 3 hours (he said it would be 1 hour) I called him. He told me that it was a no go. They swapped the injectors, but it made no difference at all, which makes complete sense because they had already tested the injectors on the truck and they tested just fine. Once again, swapping good parts with good parts, doesn't do anything except raise the labor costs and parts costs.

Anyway, they'll get back to me next week sometime with more bull˟˟˟˟˟...excuse me, I mean updates.

Ironmike4x4

Lemon Laws? Just get a new one. Most people on here would've been fed up w/ it already and demanded a new vehicle.

MTL_4runner

I feel really bad for you since they are obviously just playing parts replacement without actually getting to the root cause. Gadget is dead nuts on for what should be done and there is no excuse for them not to follow the FSM (factory service manual) for your vehicle and get this fixed pronto. You can ask the dealer to see the FSM for your vehicle (or buy one on eBay) so you can see the "tree" for yourself and possibly have a go at it. I have had dealers play parts replacement with me a few times and it is infuriating to say the least especially when I used to be a mechanic. At the very least I would educate myself on what procedure they should be following so you can argue your case effectively when the claim they can't find anything.

pdxrunner

Wait until you guys hear this!!! Today, they called and told me that they are going to pull the heads. They now think it is the knock sensor not functioning properly. They got permission from Toyota to pull the heads to take a look at that.

It's almost comical at this point.

And for the record, I am demanding a new vehicle whether they repair it or not. The arbitration process has begun and should take between 4-6 weeks for it to be resolved.

pdxrunner

I tried looking up the factory service manual for the 2002 4runner, but neither Haynes or Chilton have that published yet. I think the 2002 4runner is the same (generally) as the 2000 4runner, which they do have. I wonder if that would be sufficient enough.

In other words, would the 2000 4runner FSM give me enough information about my 2002?

The 3rd generation 4runner ran from 1996 - 2002, didn't it?

pdxrunner

They claim that the new injectors may have fixed the problem and they asked me to come and pick up my truck to see what I thought of the way it ran now. Essentially asking me to be their quality assurance specialist. I told them that unless they could tell me what was wrong with the old injectors and why new ones fixed the problem, I was hesitant to take my truck back from them.

They agreed and said that they would be back in touch with me. This was Monday 10/10 when I spoke with them and I haven't heard back yet.

It sounds as if they are going to go through with pulling the heads to see if there is a problem with the knock sensor. I don't quite understand, though, because a knock sensor would retard the timing if it were running too lean. That isn't the case with my truck, it is running too rich...which points to a problem with air. Maybe the O2 sensor is not reporting to the ECU that it is running too rich. Maybe the ECU has some corrupt data in the tables that it thinks the engine should be getting too much fuel.

I've mentioned Gadget's suggestion that maybe there is a wire harness that is shorting out causing an injector to remain open too long or something in that vein, but they don't think that is the problem.

I guess they keep thinking that another good part will fix an existing good part and the problem will go away.

MTL_4runner

The 3rd gens ran from 96-02 but they made a large change in 99 so from then on they should be similar. There are some small changes year to year but the systems should be very similar 99-02.

History of 3rd gen 4runners:
http://www.top4runners.com/ja/runhist3.html

MTL_4runner

They need to follow the FSM.....the tree is very well layed out and gives you the proper procedure for troubleshooting that problem. If the dealer wants to play parts replacement, fine......but not on your dime. I'd be pushing arbitration bigtime!

pdxrunner

Well, I picked my truck up from the service department tonight. They asked me to pick it and and drive it for a while and let them know how it's running. They were unable to reproduce the problem after making a number of changes. Here is what is said on the service report:

===============================================

Accelerates sluggish from stops. See Previous. Goodwill warranty based on vehicle history. Just out in time and miles. Case established w/tech assist #***********. FTS and dspm involved. FTS initial contact 9/26. DSPM involved 10/4. 9/28 FTS advised to flow test injectors - no abnormality. 9/29 advised to run vehicle on separate fuel supply, seems to run okay. sputters w/pressure too high or low. Fuel pressure test, 50 PSI. Inspected MAF sensor, throttle position sensor, engine temp sensor, knock sensor for normal operation. Also checked wire harness continuity for all sensors listed above sub super charger w/stock intage. Problem is worstened. Re-placed fuel pressure regulator because of slightly high fuel pressure. No diagnostic codes have been stored this visit. Inspected air fuel sensor and circuit -- normal. 10/7 - FTS advised replace fiel. Done w/no effect. Performed injector cleaning service w/toyota EFI cleaner. Substantial improvement noted after toyota cleaner used. FTS advised and agreed on injector replacement. Done 10/10. Running much better not completely fixed however. Sub ecm. compression test, all cyls even @ approx 180 PSI.
10/12 - FTS advises remove fuel tank and check for low flow cause. Also suggested to run supercharger w/no belt to eliminate any potential rattle that may set off knock sensor response. Also suggested to connect knock sensor separate from engine to see if timing continues to retard when problem occurs-compared to another vehicle. Reacts similarly. Removed fuel tank and checked for restriction or abnormality nothing remarkable noted. Reinstalled fuel tank and pump. Following remove and install fuel tankproblem has become very difficult to recreate. Suggest customer to drive vehicle and advise.

Parts:

6 spark plug
6 fuel injector set
1 regulator assy. f
2 pressurived EFI 1

Flow tested injectors
14 Gallons of gasoline

================================================== =============

Wow! This is the most impressive description I've ever seen on a service report. Pretty impressive. Anyway, driving it home, certainly drove a lot better, but it drove better the last time as well. I'll drive it a lot more than usual over the next few weeks to see if I can recreate the problematic behavior.

I'm still beginning the process of arbitration as I'm not very confident that this problem has been resolved as they aren't sure what the problem was to begin with.

I'm getting my paperwork together to submit my documentation to arbitration. I'll send that off in the next few days.

Thanks for playing along at home, guys.

Patrick

pdxrunner

After driving my truck for the past 4 days, I've certainly noticed on a number of occasions, this bogging once again. I'll be taking it back into the shop early next week.

The process of arbitration will be starting next week sometime. I spoke with the regional representative who reviews the arbitratoin cases today and he said that he'll most likely receive the paperwork sometime next week from the National Center for Dispute Resolution and at that point, the process will begin in earnest.

Speaking with him, it sounds very positive that something will be done for me as a result of this ordeal.

Stay tuned for further updates....