Lonny007

I have a very nice looking and well kept up 1987 Toyota Turbo pickup that was owned by my father and I own it now. I have a miss in it at idle to around 2,500 rpm also the exhaust from the tail pipe you can hear it miss and it is not a nice and crisp sound anymore and my gas mileage is terrible and it does not pass smog. Here is a little history it has 183,000 miles and the head gasket has blown 4 times now (I have not been impressed). I decided to get a new head with everything in it from LC engineering and a new rocker gear assembly (the shops listed below are from Redding CA), prior to the head blown I had a $1,000.00 dollar tune up at Precision Automotive and the truck was running great they replaced a lot of things including the Throttle Position Sensor, PCV valve and cleaned the Throttle Body. After having the head put on the truck by Hutchins Auto Repair the idle was rough and would miss at light cruising speeds 1,600 to 2.300rpm also the truck would like shut off when going at high rpm 4,000 rpm to 4,500rpm. while the truck was idling it would fluctuate like it could not make up its mind where to idle at sometimes it would idle at 1,000 rpm then drop to 700 rpm most of the time it was rough then sometimes very rarely the truck would run great and you could hear the change in the tail pipe and it would be making a nice crisp sound but when slowing down like getting off on a off ramp from the freeway my check engine light would flash on and off then the truck would run terrible again. (1ST CLUE) So basically when it would decide to run great the check engine light would flash when slowing down and when the truck would run terrible no check engine light would come on. Hutchins had no idea what was wrong they did turn the Mass Air Sensor (MAS) dial 7 clicks to richen it up. So next I took it too Lithia Toyota They said the waste gate on the Turbo was bent that’s why the truck would shut off at high rpm and also the valves where not adjusted right and they changed the MAS back to factory. $300.00 later the truck still had the miss and Toyota looked at it again and basically had no idea what was wrong they said that since Hutchins broke the seal on the MAF if I wanted to go any further I would have to buy a new one. (My gut feeling was if you can richen or lean things and still can not make the miss go away the problem is somewhere else also if you richen it up too much it also causes the truck to shut off at high RPM I have found out.) So next I decided to take it too Valley Toyota this mechanic has worked on Toyotas for 20+ years on the way there my truck decided to run really great. I got there and it was still running great so I told the mechanic maybe the problem cleared up but sure enough it did not last long and I was back. He looked at it for awhile and put it on his computer and also tried another MAS and the miss was still there he drilled out the plug on my MAS and fiddled with that too, checked all the sensors and checked for vacuum leaks. He thought it might be an electronic problem suggested I get a new coil so I had him put one on in the end he had his wife drive it for an unbiased opinion (what a jerk) He also said he pulled some hoses from the back of throttle body and it seemed really dirty or oily back there? He charged me another $300.00 plus and told me he had no idea what was wrong, and I should take it back too Hutchins. I stopped by a smog place and they checked it out and said it would not pass and when at idle it would seem the O2 sensor (2ND CLUE) would hang at .09 or something like that. So I went and put a new O2 Sensor and it still ran terrible just for kicks I unplugged it I could not tell any engine difference (what a neat little part, thought to myself best $150.00 I have ever spent, ya right) So I took it to Precision Automotive the best Toyota mechanic in town the same guy that did the tune up and had the truck running excellent before blown head. He looked at it all day checked for vacuum leaks, sensors and basically told me my truck sucks and he had no idea what it could be that it misses bad and that the O2 sensor seems to hang at .09 at idle but he had no idea what that was pointing too, he also said it could be LC engineering head that might be causing these problems? So I took it back too Hutchins and they thought it might be fuel injectors so they replaced one and fiddled with MAS and told me they have no idea what is causing the miss and charged me another $300.00 I am not a mechanic and do not have much experience but I think what is odd is that very rarely the truck would run great and when it did the idle RPM would raise 200 rpm and the sound in tail pipe would be crisp but the check engine light would flash when I would slow down quick. Also it seems the O2 sensor hangs at .09 when idle and it seemed odd by 2 mechanics. If the problem was in the head I would think the truck would not be able to run great sometimes? I am thinking maybe computer or possible short somewhere? Also is it possible a dirty throttle body could cause this I think the mechanics just clean the front opening and that’s why the one mechanic said the back of throttle body where vacuum hoses connect sure seemed oily? I am thinking of tearing down the throttle body and clean the whole damn thing my self, my idle does seem to bounce around a bit. If anyone has any ideas please feel free to respond. If anyone has a good running 1987 Toyota Turbo that runs right but has been wrecked or just runs good and is for sale let me know, if I could start swiping parts I bet I could find the problem. I also did a search on LC Engineering heads and have seen a lot about a lean miss, if it turns out to be there head they are sure causing people a lot of problems claiming there stuff works well with stock engines for replacement. I am also thinking of taking my truck to TCR Automotive and Performance out of Tucson AZ. He sounds like he has enough pride about how good he is to find the problem sure along ways to drive though to get my truck running right you would think any of these jokers charging 50 to 60 dollars and claiming to be Toyota experts would be able to fix the problem, Seems allot of mechanics are like doctors now get you in and out fast like cattle whether they find the problem or not and always with a nice fat bill. I like the idea about charging you for new parts that did not fix the problem. Would be like me and my dad building a deck for someone and it falling down and still wanting to get paid for are job and then wanting to get paid for repairing it? Or like me fixing someone’s older computer with more Ram and Faster Cup and even though that did not fix the problem still charging him and avoiding doing a complete operating system reinstall and complete diagnostics because it will take up too much of my time, and I might learn something new (and after all making money is only what it is all about). Oh and one more other thing I owned a brand new 91 V6 Toyota, boy what a lemon and this 87 Toyota is sure not doing much better. Toyota OH WHAT A FEELING hehe this will be my last one too! Thanks for any responses, I will keep you posted.

rimpainter.com

That is the longest post I have ever seen.

You will get much more responses if you make it short and simple.

What are your questions?

Salue

My turborunner used to have a miss at idle up until the turbo kicked in. After I got my injectors balanced and blue printed, it solved the problem...It turns out that one of my injectors was stuck closed. I'm not sure if you've had your injectors looked at but you might want to try there. Sign up to this mailing list: 22ret group

That is exclusively for the 22ret enthusiast. I am on that mailing list and it is very active. You can also try contacting Tim over at DOA He's also on that list. Have you checke out Jeff Moskovitz's site yet? He's got a pretty nice setup on his 22ret pickup.

Keep us posted on what the culprit is.

Salue

AgRunner06

Wow, what a long post. I did actually read all of it.

Try this website about your TPS.

http://4crawler.cruiserpages.com/4x4...PS/index.shtml

The symptoms of a problem are down at the bottom of the page.
I have found these symptoms match up with my TPS and it is brand new. It sounds like they might match up to some of your problems. The TPS could just not be adjusted right.

I don't think this is your only problem though. It sounds like it is electrical if you truck runs better with the check engine light on.

Have you tried getting the code from the check engine light? I might be wrong, but I think the code will stay in the system even it the light goes off. The next time the light comes on go to AutoZone and have them pull the code for you.

That really sucks. I know the feeling. Ever since I had my headgasket job done I've had a miss. Hopefully a different dealership can figure out what my problems are.

Good Luck!

Churnd

How the hell did he write all that without timing out?

rimpainter.com

100WPM

Victor

Cut and paste more than likely.

You need to get back to basics. Do a compression check. Check that all vacuum lines are connected and so are all sensors. Change your spark plug wires and distributor cap. Pull the plugs and inspect them - any have heavy carbon on them?

Something as simpe as a bad gasket causing a leak in the intake could cause a lot of your symptoms. The fact that disconnecting your O2 sensor doesn't do anything - even trip the check engine light - leads me to believe there is a problem in the wiring to the computer. I personally would have stopped with the MAF replacements after the first one.

Lonny007

Hehe yes copy and paste, hehe. Sorry for long post, it helped release some frustration though.

Thanks for website 93_Runner06 my TPS was brand new and has been checked by 2 mechanics and they said it was fine but you never know, I will keep this in mind though. Funny how many people develop a miss after the head gasket replaced, wonder what the culprit is?

Victor compression check was done all twice all in 140 range I believe. All vacuum lines have been checked 3 times by different mechanics. Oh and back awhile I did put new spark plugs in and no change. I will pull the plugs and see how the look compared to the old ones though, it’s been a while. I never did buy a new MAS, but a mechanic swapped one for testing purpose he said it still missed and put mine back in.

So if I pull the O2 sensor it should trip the engine light each time I start the vehicle, or just 1 time only and then store a code?

Thanks for your help.

Victor

Yup - code will be stored. That is until the power to the computer is cut off for a certain amount of time. I have to think that perhaps you have at least 1 bad injector. When they clog up they dribble fuel and don't spray it properly.

Lonny007

Victor I had a mechanic look and test all 4 injectors he said 1 was a little iffy and thought that might be the problem replaced it and still has the miss. I pulled the plugs and they do not look as black as I thought they would since my truck leaves a nice black mark on the concrete if I idle and reve my truck in one spot.

Oh I forgot LC egineering recommended I get a tunning module which goes to the temp switch before the ECU lets you set the rich and lean by another way. I bought and tried this the idle does jump up 200 rpm and seems to help, but I was told I was running to rich trying to mask a problem with fuel. Maybe I went wrong buying this head Late 22R/RE Street/EFI Pro Cylinder Head
http://www.lcengineering.com/Cylinderhead2.htm which has to much airflow and a perfect air to fuel flow cannot be achieved, it is odd though that the truck has decided to run great only a few times and not for very long 15 mins or so.

I wonder if my ECU is faulty. I have unplugged the O2 sensor and see if computer will kick up a code. Thanks again for your help.

Todd E

The EFI/carb head is different from the Turbo head, unless LCE sent you a head specifically for the turbo, I think your running too small of a compression chamber.
Head over to this discussion board and ask for t.t.boy (that stands for Turbo Truck boy, BTW). He rebuilds Turbo trucks as a hobby and knows them very well inside and out.
Todd

greg kar

Well Lonny, it sounds like your truck has a toothache.

I'm not clear on the history.... Did your present problem start BEFORE the new head, or AFTER? (I'm trying to rule in and rule out cause and effect).

I smell intermittant electrical problems, probably in your injector wiring harness. Just a guess.... Sounds similar to a problem I hadon a non-turbo truck I owned.

Your repeated head gasket failures may be due to a corrosion problem common to Toyota 22R heads, and not related to your current problem. I hope you kept the old head....

Your rich condition, if it continues after resetting the MAF to stock, may be due to a bad O2, a bad circuit, or a bad ECU (rare).

The good news is that the system is fixable. The bad news is that unless you fix it yourself, you're going to be on a wild goose chase until you luck out and find the "right" mechanic.

It sounds to me like you're close to having spent more than the truck is worth, so I hope you close in on the problem soon....

If you decide to surrender and sell the truck, let me know. I have a friend who's 15yo kid looking for a project.

You said you're in Redding, Ca? I'm 200 miles south.

Good luck Lonny!

Lonny007

Thanks Greg Kar! I will keep your friend in mind. Why should I have keep the old head and cam? I believe the head was grounded down too much?

Update: Besides my truck running rich by using the MAS Mass Air Flow sensor dial I believe the mechanic told me 2 clicks, and it still misses and sputters from the tail pipe. When its cold it misses and hesitates bad also when I accelerate fast and get the rpms up there a bit it like shuts down real quick and the check engine light comes on. Today I unplugged my new O2 sensor I could not notice a difference so I drove it today, went thru a 1/2 tank of gas was wondering if it would set a code. No check engine light ever came on and when I checked for codes it blinks 14 times real quick then starts over. I believe that means no code is stored correct? Now I would think the computer would report a O2 error code but it has not, you may be on to something with a bad circuit or ECU?

Before my head problem and with the 1,000 dollar tune up I had a different problem and was due to the wires that go from the coil and across the engine aparrently got hot and exposed the copper wiring and when ever I got the engine wet the truck would not run this was fixed and problem went away, mechanic that fixed it was curious at first if I damaged the ECU or the ignitor but at the time he said everything seemed fine, which it did run great until head gasket went. One thing odd was when it would decide to run great after head job which was only about 5 times the check engine light would come on when I was decelerating quickly, then the truck would start to run terrible again. Funny now the check engine light never comes on except when accelerating hard and it does the shut down thing, I heard that if truck gets too much fuel this safty feature happens?

Thanks again!

AgRunner06

Wrong, it is an actual code for a problem.

Go Here

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see your code.

It says: insufficient turbo pressure, faulty turbo, or ECU.

My guess is the problem is the ECU since you aren't getting a code when you disconnect your O2 sensor. I'm sure there is some way to check the turbo, but I don't know what it is.


I hope this helps.

Lonny007

I see when I read the manual it said it reports code by using 2 digits a 1 flash for 1 then pause and flash 4 times which would equall 14 then pause even longer to report next error if there is 1, It got me off gaurd flashing 14 times to equal 14, hehe. I did not know 14 meant maybe bad ECU too. My Turbo could be setting the code too and then I would have 2 problems, I would really hope it was the ECU then all my problems would go away, unplugging the O2 sensor and having ECU not set a code leads me to believe it might be ECU. Anyone have a good ECU for a Turbo laying around so I could test it out? Thanks 93_Runner06


Jeff Moskovitz wrote this:

Also, code 14 is the overboost code, which is almost always a sign that you have hit fuel cut. You will hit fuel cut on the 22RTE when you have too little tension on the AFM spring -- it really has nothing to do with too much fuel, but rather too much AFM signal in too short a time period, coupled with a rapid shift in throttle plate angle as measured by the TPS. Still, it is almost impossible to see fuel cut on a turbo motor with stock boost. Are you running more than stock boost??

greg kar

Lonny, pay attention to Jeff Mosk's reply. He's the acknowledged Turbo Toy expert. Also, there's a guy named TTBoy (for turbo toy boy)... he knowshis stuff too.

I'm *not* an expert on toy turbos... so Ican only guess.

I do know it's fixable. If you throw enough money at it, it will eventually get done.

I don't know if it's worth fixing.

But one thing, I doubt if a turbo problem could make it run too rich....