political forum?

[Al's Chop Shop]

why is the political forum locked? i think its great its separate from off-topic so those that don't want to read political stuff don't have too.... but why is it locked? could there ever be a better time to hash out politics then now? Al

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[waskillywabbit]

Roll Tide!

[ocdropzone]

there was a former member on here with a really cool 4runner that tended to stir things up, a lot...things got very heated etc etc...

Personally I like the political discussions but the one member screwed it up for every one else and I can understand why they chose to close it to political ca ca..

[SC4Runner]

Yeah, his 4runner was really, really, really, really big, and cool, but, obviously he was compensating for something else and it showed through in his posts...and political views!!

[burnscore1]

They are talking about 4 mogger who wouldn't stop when the mods asked him too. He took stuff too far. I may have agreed with him alot, but he did take it too far.

While I love political discussions, because I love learning other views (even misinformed dumb views...lol ) , topics seem to get too heated and gets everybody too pissy with everyone.

I do agree that if you are looking in the political thread that you're looking for that type of discussion. However, some folks can't help get into the discussions and get upset. Myself being included.

The Mods here hate when people get mad at each other.

[fustercluck]

My analysis is that ideologically our population suffers from a schism. Part of us still believe in personal freedom and accountability and the rest of us have been, or are being, convinced of the benefits of Robin Hood policies. Those who promise to one person the fruits of another's labor in exchange for a vote, play the part of Robin Hood. Those from whom the fruits are taken become embittered toward those who demand and receive the ill gotten fruits. I think that is understandable.

Anyway, this theme is the single common thread that binds nearly every political issue out there. Those who want, take from those who have (or produce) by virtue of the force of govt.

The other elephant in the room is the abortion issue. The discussion of which usually results in the fulfillment of Godwin's law. At the center of the argument is whether a fetus is human and if so, does it have rights? The conclusion to such questions resides within a moral code which in this society is as divergent as water chrystals.

Ultimately any political discussion is based upon where one man's rights end at the beginning of another's. Freedom and rights are generally defended with passion. Passion unbridled results in chaos. Chaos in a forum such as this is destructive. If the parties involved in a discussion can express themselves dispassionately and logically, then political topics can be informative. It is highly unlikely that all participants can remain dispassionate though and the conversation usually declines into personal assaults and innuendo.

As for my own conduct, I have cemented my beliefs and perspectives in what I understand to be sound principles of freedom tempered by moral accountability. I believe I can discuss nearly any topic with a rational opponent and emerge victorious eventually. Usually I become impatient or lose interest if the sequence of logic must be longer than 5-10 posts.

For now, suffice it to say that I approach politics here with the usual flippancy....




LEAVE OBAMA ALONE!!!!!!

[burnscore1]

Originally Posted by fustercluck

Ultimately any political discussion is based upon where one man's rights end at the beginning of another's. Freedom and rights are generally defended with passion. Passion unbridled results in chaos. Chaos in a forum such as this is destructive. If the parties involved in a discussion can express themselves dispassionately and logically, then political topics can be informative. It is highly unlikely that all participants can remain dispassionate though and the conversation usually declines into personal assaults and innuendo.

I, take blame with this comment. I am rarely able to discuss politics without passion, and then the thread returns to chaos.

I do believe that not having passion in the direction your country is taking is not good for anyone no matter what your political stance.

[Al's Chop Shop]

Originally Posted by fustercluck

Those who promise to one person the fruits of another's labor in exchange for a vote, play the part of Robin Hood.

oh, you mean the dems?

Originally Posted by fustercluck

LEAVE OBAMA ALONE!!!!!!

just for that, i have to post this:




i'll probably get sent to the corner for that one.

Al

[fustercluck]

Originally Posted by burnscore1

I, take blame with this comment. I am rarely able to discuss politics without passion, and then the thread returns to chaos.

I do believe that not having passion in the direction your country is taking is not good for anyone no matter what your political stance.

I think we all have our breaking point. I think again that we are all passionate about the direction of our country's political ideology. Whether we can distill the pure logic from the passion and present vigorously and convincingly our position in the face of opposition remains totally in our discipline.

I have been reluctantly pressed over the edge before. When that happens, I miss opportunities otherwise obvious and am not as likely to be victorious. I neglect the most basic principles of debate and find myself trapped by my own shortsightedness. As a result, I'd rather leave a discussion for a period until I am sufficiently composed to return....assuming I haven't lost interest altogether.


To this day I have yet to lose a discussion about socialism (Robin Hood policies) vs. individual freedom.

[AxleIke]

The reason the forum is closed, and almost all threads get shut down, is because VERY few members here, as in, I can count them on both of my hands, can actually DISCUSS politics, or even DEBATE politics.

Intelligent discussion and debate is discourse where both sides, while disagreeing, are respectful, and have open minds. Therefore, if one side makes a point that is valid, and relevant, the other side acknowledges that point, even if they disagree.

Both sides must have a mutual respect of the other side as an informed person who happens to be of a contrary opinion. Discussion may even change the other person's mind, who knows?

What usually happens in these threads is a bunch of ignorant people on both sides begin a discussion which rapidly deteriorates into an idiotic session of name calling in which both sides infer that the other side has betrayed their country, and are sub-human.

People get banned, enemies are made, and the entire thing results in everyone who participates having a similar feeling to blue balls: frustrated as hell, and no satisfaction in sight.

So whats the point?

[burnscore1]

Originally Posted by fustercluck

I have been reluctantly pressed over the edge before. When that happens, I miss opportunities otherwise obvious and am not as likely to be victorious. I neglect the most basic principles of debate and find myself trapped by my own shortsightedness. As a result, I'd rather leave a discussion for a period until I am sufficiently composed to return....assuming I haven't lost interest altogether.

I too get tunnel vision and miss opportunities (sp) to make a more valid point.

Originally Posted by fustercluck

To this day I have yet to lose a discussion about socialism (Robin Hood policies) vs. individual freedom.

I have seen you discuss it, and would not go against you if I disagreed.

[Lysmachia]

Another reason we leave politics out... This is a 4x4 forum guys! LOL If you wanna discuss politics go find a political forum

[burnscore1]

I understand what you are saying Lys.

My rubuttle is that I have enjoyed and learned from the political discussions on this board.

It is y'alls call, and I don't don't have anything negative to say about your decision. I just think that there is a choice made when you go to / weigh in on the political forum and it shouldn't be looked at like it's a taboo subject.

Like I said, I respect your decision though.

[Al's Chop Shop]

being passionate about your country and its politics is a good thing, IMO. but i agree when it turns into personal attacks it can degrade a discussion very fast. i have been apart of many discussion on other boards, and while some times threads get heated, most turn ok. i'm one of the people that enjoys voicing my opinion and i also enjoy hearing others. i don't mind agreeing to disagree, so i enjoy discussing it. and sometimes my view can be changed... that's why i like it.

Al

[Corey]

One of the main reasons why my partner shut down that section was the fights that broke out.

That involves posts getting reported, and mods/admins having to get involved.
They became to uncivil, and was a lot of extra work for staff.

[alliekay]

Originally Posted by Lysmachia

Another reason we leave politics out... This is a 4x4 forum guys! LOL If you wanna discuss politics go find a political forum

4X4 = politics. Like it or not, wheeling (modifying rigs, fuel, land closures, etc.) is all extremely political. Limiting (or from what I have seen, censoring) political discussions is just very slow suicide for our pastimes.

The Bush bashing threads all go over great. Even the war threads. But negative Obama threads gets the axe. What gives?

[Lysmachia]

Originally Posted by alliekay

4X4 = politics. Like it or not, wheeling (modifying rigs, fuel, land closures, etc.) is all extremely political.

Yes... this is True! And thus the reason we have a Land Use section that does get political about these issues from time to time!

[Elvota]

Originally Posted by alliekay

The Bush bashing threads all go over great. Even the war threads. But negative Obama threads gets the axe. What gives?

Where are all these anti-Bush threads?

[fustercluck]

OYeah. Politics as practiced in this era affects EVERY aspect of everyone's life. To neglect or ignore it Bis to surrender bits of your life and liberty like grains of sand in the hour glass. One day, maybe during Aour childrens' life span or their childrens', the little grains of sand will run out and liberty will be gone; Mtoo late for a bloodless recovery.

AThe other day I demonstrated to one of the Jr. Fusters how other people, who for what ever reason, Scan't or won't provide for themselves, are preventing him from having the quality of life we could Uotherwise provide. He was understandably furious and righteously indignant....he's 13 and has learned Cthe corrosive effect of Robin Hood (robbin' hood) policies on the population. Others not only are never Kso convinced, can't recognize it when they see it or are on the take and hence politically conflicted.

SThe fact is that relative to political discussion here, we are victims of our own behavior. Sensoring a thread for poor behavior is understandable. Sensoring for political correctness is nothing more than gun control of the first amendment. I have to admit, I can't think of any George Bush bashing threads. There have been sniping snarky comments slipped in here and there, but I'm guilty of the same irreverence.

[alliekay]

Originally Posted by Elvota

Where are all these anti-Bush threads?

I, for one, use the search function.
Just search for "Bush" and "Elvota."
Pretty clear where you stand.

[alliekay]

Originally Posted by fustercluck

I have to admit, I can't think of any George Bush bashing threads. There have been sniping snarky comments slipped in here and there, but I'm guilty of the same irreverence.

It is just mixed in. Shows up a lot if you search for political buzz words (which I have done.)
What I have found is that Obama is NOT bashed here, which I don't get-- being a 4x4 site, you would think it would go hand in hand. I am just trying to figure out why? I also found a site called "Pirate4x4.com." Have you heard of that? A LOT of anti-Obama stuff there.

[burnscore1]

Here, just to make you happy Allie.

Obama is a silky tounged slickster that will only raise our taxes and further divide the parties.

Let me just pour a little a gas right about here.

LOL

[DeathCougar]

Originally Posted by alliekay

I, for one, use the search function.
Just search for "Bush" and "Elvota."
Pretty clear where you stand.

This post is part and parcel why political threads are banned. You use the exact same tactics and political banter 4Mogger (see: House of the Banned) used. Saying "its clear where you stand" means obsolutly nothing, other than you are trying to start yet another net fight.

Both "sides" are barred from political threads. And if you really want to get technical, YOUR thread has gone untouched, so there really isn't this favortism you speak of. This board has already decided to stay off and away from politics, but every now and again someone has to come here and push the issue.

Its in everyones best interest to leave politics, and this thread, alone.

[DeathCougar]

Originally Posted by alliekay

It is just mixed in. Shows up a lot if you search for political buzz words (which I have done.)
What I have found is that Obama is NOT bashed here, which I don't get-- being a 4x4 site, you would think it would go hand in hand. I am just trying to figure out why? I also found a site called "Pirate4x4.com." Have you heard of that? A LOT of anti-Obama stuff there.

Pirate? what is that? Nope, never heard of it.

[alliekay]

Originally Posted by DeathCougar

Pirate? what is that? Nope, never heard of it.

Just another site, like this one. Only not really.