Finally venturing into my 3.4 swap (dial up warning) - Page 9

breknraj · 05-06-2008, 12:01 PM

This may be a little optomistic, but with the melting that I have seen so far, I'm hoping that I will be able to get the truck to my working platform by the end of the month. Toward that end, these are the things that I am planning to do to get Worf back up and running to full capacity.

I'll have to do the things necessary to move the engine forward a few inches, so that I will be able to remove and repair the crossover. This picure is a crude illustration of what I have in mind for the repair. The crack is at the bottom of the junction between the pipes coming from each bank. I plan to re-weld the pipes, then grind the areas in red smooth so that I can add some diamond fishplates to the front, back, and bottom of the butt joint area.

I would appreciate any thoughts or ideas about this plan.

After I repair the crossover, I will replace the firewall insulation, speedo cable and the e-brake cable. All of these got fried from the exhaust leak. After I reposition the engine, I plan to fab a solid mount for the down tube to the bell housing, remove the forward cat, and replace it with a flex coupling. I plan to install the URD O2 sensor bypass. I figured that since I keep getting the rear O2 sensor code, anyway, dropping down to one cat and the bypass isn't that big a deal.

Anyway, this is what I have in mind, so feel free to fire away with whatever your thoughts are about it.

**Elvota** · 05-06-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breknraj

I plan to install the URD O2 sensor bypass. I figured that since I keep getting the rear O2 sensor code, anyway, dropping down to one cat and the bypass isn't that big a deal.

I ended up with just one cat and the rear O2 bypass. To me, that's a good way to go since the rear O2 is only really monitoring the cat's performance.

That's an ORS crossover, correct? Maybe ORS would send you a revised version and you could return this one... or send this one back for repair?

I guess that would give you to much downtime.

breknraj · 05-06-2008, 03:44 PM

The down time isn't a huge issue (since I've basically been without it for the last few months), but I do want to get it back on the road reasonably expediantly once I dive into the project.

As far as I know, ORS would be happy to work with me on a repair, but I don't know about the fishplate idea. I might have to talk to Mike about it, and see what his opinion is. I know that it will give the crossover better structural integrity at that joint, and I don't think that double layers of steel should be an issue with temps and such. I just want to do whatever I can to avoid having to chase anything to do with the crossover for a long time to come.

Five1Nine8Eight · 05-08-2008, 03:23 AM

Same thing happened to my crossover, exact same places too! I pulled my whole engine and repaired them. It cracked last weekend so I think I'll just go to headers and a custom crossover.

If I keep the crossover, my idea was to install some flex after the collector and before the first cat. Like you said but I'm gonna keep my 1st cat. The hard mount to the trans is a good one.

My crossover has header wrap on it and that helped to keep exhaust leak damage to a minimum.

Post up pics of the Trans mount.

mt_goat · 05-08-2008, 04:30 AM

Raj, do you have a pic of the failure point. I'm thinking the main stess on it might be from the twisting of the engine on the mounts as it torques up. If that's correct, the brace from the bell housing might be the best idea. I guess you didn't have a flex coupling after the crossover before? If not, that should help a lot too. Even with headers you want flex couplings. Not sure about the extra fish plates

It's an interesting idea. My gut feeling is the it will just push the weak link over to another spot. But that's just a guess, we need some FEA models run LOL.

I think I'm going to go ahead and install a brace from the bell housing on mine. I really don't want this to happen 1000 miles from home.

Here you go on the FEA models, just hire these guys

http://www.sti-tech.com/sti/fea.php?...FQ-DIgoduGs5Uw

breknraj · 05-08-2008, 03:54 PM

Dale, I'm sure that the lack of a flex coupling and extra support on the down pipe were the major components leading to the failure. I will definitely address those issues, but as far as the fish plates are concerned, that is based on my previous knowledge and experience in welding. I can't make the slightest claim of being a great welder, but I do know that an unsupported butt weld is the weakest one out there. The fish plates should strengthen the joint, and in conjunction with the other modifications, I'm confident that it should allevieate further stuctural issues with the crossover.

The only thing that I'm not sure about is whether the double layers of steel at the fish plate might create hot spots or such that could lead to other problems, down the road. I'm just planning to use some plain steel exhaust tubing to make the plates, so I don't think that that relatively thin extra steel should be a thermal problem, but I'm not absolutely sure about that, either.

Anyway, this is the direction I plan to go, unless someone chimes in with any logical reason not to. I just wish that I didn't have to go through the other gyrations just to get to the stupid thing!

Red_Chili · 05-12-2008, 01:09 PM

Interesting. My crossover was the initial design of the ORS crossover, and when it failed, Mike put in the flex coupling. It has been flawless since. I did lose an exhaust gasket at the downtube, but if I had kept up on tightening the bolts... oh well, simple repair.

Some thoughts: I have a flex coupling about a foot behind the crossover, in front of the cat. I also have a FRORF crossmember that absolutely limits engine twisting on the mounts.

Either that has eliminated the problem or I just haven't run into it yet. Ask Mike though, he will at the very least be extremely interested in any issues out there. He stands behind his products with the best of them, and redesigns quickly if warranted.

mt_goat · 05-12-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Chili

I also have a FRORF crossmember that absolutely limits engine twisting on the mounts.

Yeah Bill that should help a lot, I don't have the FRORF crossmenber but I have chained my motor mounts down to help limit movement.

ORS · 05-12-2008, 03:02 PM

We have 3.4L Performance mounts that helps with that twisting while still providing a decent daily driver (not too much engine vibrations transmitted).

mt_goat · 05-12-2008, 03:23 PM

Holy motor mounts batman! Yeah that should do it too Mike.

breknraj · 05-12-2008, 09:43 PM

Day---yum, Mike! Those are some seriously beefy motor mounts!

I'll have to do without, for now, though - I have a wedding to pay for, soon!

breknraj · 06-26-2008, 07:10 PM

The weather and the job finally aligned to get a little work done!

I have stripped the front of the engine, and discovered that my original 3.0 fan (the ducted style) has a crack on the inner hub plastic. Since I do not want to see it fly apart and cause the associated mayhem that I have read about from time to time, I'm wondering what some of you have done to use the 3.4 fan. I did a test fit, and I can see that I would have to trim the shroud to be able to run it. How does that affect the cooling, if at all?

I'm sure that I could get a new ducted fan from Toyota (and I know that that fits), but I'm also sure that it would be seriously expensive.

I am also thinking that I may revise my exhaust idea. My current set up is crossover pipe, down tube to turn, O2 sensor 1, cat 1 (under factory heat sheild), pipe, cat 2 (under second heat sheild), O2 sensor 2, then the rest of the pipe and muffler. My new thought is that I will still add a support from the bell housing to the exhaust, but I'm thinking about putting the flex coupling in between the cats. I would like to do this, so that I can retain both cats (and keep them under the heat shields). It would still suspend some more weight than just piping before the flex coupling, but I think that the bell housing support can handle most of that (in addition to my planned upgrade of the crossover weld joint).

Anyone with thoughts about these issues, please chime in!

**Elvota** · 06-26-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breknraj

I'm wondering what some of you have done to use the 3.4 fan. I did a test fit, and I can see that I would have to trim the shroud to be able to run it. How does that affect the cooling, if at all?

I still have the 3.0 fan, but will upgrade to a 3.4 style once I find one.

Regardless, I do not run any shroud now and have no cooling problems. This is also with a winch and TJM bumper up front, as well as the 100 plus degree days of the Scottsdale, AZ area.

So, my guess is Colorado would be no issue even without the shroud.

breknraj · 06-27-2008, 06:15 AM

Thanks, Elvota! That is very good to hear.

mt_goat · 06-27-2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvota

I still have the 3.0 fan, but will upgrade to a 3.4 style once I find one.

Regardless, I do not run any shroud now and have no cooling problems. This is also with a winch and TJM bumper up front, as well as the 100 plus degree days of the Scottsdale, AZ area.

So, my guess is Colorado would be no issue even without the shroud.

What are your temps running with that setup?

**Elvota** · 06-27-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mt_goat

What are your temps running with that setup?

I only have the OEM gauge, which I realize is not that precise. But...

...the gauge always sits under half and stays rock solid. Whether climbing big hills at free way speed or crawling the rocks. I have a radiator from Performance here in Phoenix. Bought it for the 3.0 and have kept it after the swap. Perhaps that's the key?

I know you had a lot of overheating issues Mt Goat with the same bumper setup, so I was waiting for similar after my swap. I have been happy with the results so far.

mt_goat · 06-27-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvota

...the gauge always sits under half and stays rock solid. Whether climbing big hills at free way speed or crawling the rocks.

That's what mine does too. If I was to just go by my OEM gauge I've never had a cooling problem either.

Do you have the OBDII plug? You could get accurate temp measurement there.

05-06-2008, 12:01 PM	#201 (permalink)
breknraj Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Summit County, Colorado Posts: 862	This may be a little optomistic, but with the melting that I have seen so far, I'm hoping that I will be able to get the truck to my working platform by the end of the month. Toward that end, these are the things that I am planning to do to get Worf back up and running to full capacity. I'll have to do the things necessary to move the engine forward a few inches, so that I will be able to remove and repair the crossover. This picure is a crude illustration of what I have in mind for the repair. The crack is at the bottom of the junction between the pipes coming from each bank. I plan to re-weld the pipes, then grind the areas in red smooth so that I can add some diamond fishplates to the front, back, and bottom of the butt joint area. I would appreciate any thoughts or ideas about this plan. After I repair the crossover, I will replace the firewall insulation, speedo cable and the e-brake cable. All of these got fried from the exhaust leak. After I reposition the engine, I plan to fab a solid mount for the down tube to the bell housing, remove the forward cat, and replace it with a flex coupling. I plan to install the URD O2 sensor bypass. I figured that since I keep getting the rear O2 sensor code, anyway, dropping down to one cat and the bypass isn't that big a deal. Anyway, this is what I have in mind, so feel free to fire away with whatever your thoughts are about it. __________________ Raj : 1960 Homo Sapien. 192cm, Blonde, Blue. Soon to lose spare tire. Worf : 1990 SR5 Xtracab 4x4 5 speed, Inca Red Metallic. 3.4 converted, with Taco 5 spoke alloys, 275/65R16 BFG AT K/Os. Soon to add rear e-locker. Last edited by breknraj : 05-06-2008 at 12:07 PM.

05-06-2008, 03:44 PM	#203 (permalink)
breknraj Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Summit County, Colorado Posts: 862	The down time isn't a huge issue (since I've basically been without it for the last few months), but I do want to get it back on the road reasonably expediantly once I dive into the project. As far as I know, ORS would be happy to work with me on a repair, but I don't know about the fishplate idea. I might have to talk to Mike about it, and see what his opinion is. I know that it will give the crossover better structural integrity at that joint, and I don't think that double layers of steel should be an issue with temps and such. I just want to do whatever I can to avoid having to chase anything to do with the crossover for a long time to come. __________________ Raj : 1960 Homo Sapien. 192cm, Blonde, Blue. Soon to lose spare tire. Worf : 1990 SR5 Xtracab 4x4 5 speed, Inca Red Metallic. 3.4 converted, with Taco 5 spoke alloys, 275/65R16 BFG AT K/Os. Soon to add rear e-locker.

05-08-2008, 03:23 AM	#204 (permalink)
Five1Nine8Eight Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 110	Same thing happened to my crossover, exact same places too! I pulled my whole engine and repaired them. It cracked last weekend so I think I'll just go to headers and a custom crossover. If I keep the crossover, my idea was to install some flex after the collector and before the first cat. Like you said but I'm gonna keep my 1st cat. The hard mount to the trans is a good one. My crossover has header wrap on it and that helped to keep exhaust leak damage to a minimum. Post up pics of the Trans mount. __________________ '94 Pickup std. 2WD formerly 22RE powered. 13.5" up front 17.5" rear. 3.4L \| R150 \| 4.10 E-Locker

05-08-2008, 04:30 AM	#205 (permalink)
mt_goat Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State Posts: 7,427	Raj, do you have a pic of the failure point. I'm thinking the main stess on it might be from the twisting of the engine on the mounts as it torques up. If that's correct, the brace from the bell housing might be the best idea. I guess you didn't have a flex coupling after the crossover before? If not, that should help a lot too. Even with headers you want flex couplings. Not sure about the extra fish plates It's an interesting idea. My gut feeling is the it will just push the weak link over to another spot. But that's just a guess, we need some FEA models run LOL. I think I'm going to go ahead and install a brace from the bell housing on mine. I really don't want this to happen 1000 miles from home. Here you go on the FEA models, just hire these guys http://www.sti-tech.com/sti/fea.php?...FQ-DIgoduGs5Uw __________________ Dale "America is in a hole and it's getting deeper every day. We import 70% of our oil at a cost of $700 billion a year - four times the annual cost of the Iraq war." T. Boone Pickens Check out the plan: http://www.pickensplan.com/index.php and http://www.cngnow.com/EN-US/Pages/default.aspx Last edited by mt_goat : 05-08-2008 at 08:00 AM.

05-08-2008, 03:54 PM	#206 (permalink)
breknraj Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Summit County, Colorado Posts: 862	Dale, I'm sure that the lack of a flex coupling and extra support on the down pipe were the major components leading to the failure. I will definitely address those issues, but as far as the fish plates are concerned, that is based on my previous knowledge and experience in welding. I can't make the slightest claim of being a great welder, but I do know that an unsupported butt weld is the weakest one out there. The fish plates should strengthen the joint, and in conjunction with the other modifications, I'm confident that it should allevieate further stuctural issues with the crossover. The only thing that I'm not sure about is whether the double layers of steel at the fish plate might create hot spots or such that could lead to other problems, down the road. I'm just planning to use some plain steel exhaust tubing to make the plates, so I don't think that that relatively thin extra steel should be a thermal problem, but I'm not absolutely sure about that, either. Anyway, this is the direction I plan to go, unless someone chimes in with any logical reason not to. I just wish that I didn't have to go through the other gyrations just to get to the stupid thing! __________________ Raj : 1960 Homo Sapien. 192cm, Blonde, Blue. Soon to lose spare tire. Worf : 1990 SR5 Xtracab 4x4 5 speed, Inca Red Metallic. 3.4 converted, with Taco 5 spoke alloys, 275/65R16 BFG AT K/Os. Soon to add rear e-locker.

05-12-2008, 01:09 PM	#207 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	Interesting. My crossover was the initial design of the ORS crossover, and when it failed, Mike put in the flex coupling. It has been flawless since. I did lose an exhaust gasket at the downtube, but if I had kept up on tightening the bolts... oh well, simple repair. Some thoughts: I have a flex coupling about a foot behind the crossover, in front of the cat. I also have a FRORF crossmember that absolutely limits engine twisting on the mounts. Either that has eliminated the problem or I just haven't run into it yet. Ask Mike though, he will at the very least be extremely interested in any issues out there. He stands behind his products with the best of them, and redesigns quickly if warranted. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page

05-12-2008, 03:02 PM	#209 (permalink)
ORS Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arvada, CO Posts: 194	We have 3.4L Performance mounts that helps with that twisting while still providing a decent daily driver (not too much engine vibrations transmitted). __________________ Off Road Solutions Arvada, CO 303-278-6267 www.offroadsolutions.com Offering offroad products, engine conversions & custom fab work for your Toyota (& much more...)

05-12-2008, 03:23 PM	#210 (permalink)
mt_goat Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State Posts: 7,427	Holy motor mounts batman! Yeah that should do it too Mike. __________________ Dale "America is in a hole and it's getting deeper every day. We import 70% of our oil at a cost of $700 billion a year - four times the annual cost of the Iraq war." T. Boone Pickens Check out the plan: http://www.pickensplan.com/index.php and http://www.cngnow.com/EN-US/Pages/default.aspx

05-12-2008, 09:43 PM	#211 (permalink)
breknraj Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Summit County, Colorado Posts: 862	Day---yum, Mike! Those are some seriously beefy motor mounts! I'll have to do without, for now, though - I have a wedding to pay for, soon! __________________ Raj : 1960 Homo Sapien. 192cm, Blonde, Blue. Soon to lose spare tire. Worf : 1990 SR5 Xtracab 4x4 5 speed, Inca Red Metallic. 3.4 converted, with Taco 5 spoke alloys, 275/65R16 BFG AT K/Os. Soon to add rear e-locker.

06-26-2008, 07:10 PM	#212 (permalink)
breknraj Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Summit County, Colorado Posts: 862	The weather and the job finally aligned to get a little work done! I have stripped the front of the engine, and discovered that my original 3.0 fan (the ducted style) has a crack on the inner hub plastic. Since I do not want to see it fly apart and cause the associated mayhem that I have read about from time to time, I'm wondering what some of you have done to use the 3.4 fan. I did a test fit, and I can see that I would have to trim the shroud to be able to run it. How does that affect the cooling, if at all? I'm sure that I could get a new ducted fan from Toyota (and I know that that fits), but I'm also sure that it would be seriously expensive. I am also thinking that I may revise my exhaust idea. My current set up is crossover pipe, down tube to turn, O2 sensor 1, cat 1 (under factory heat sheild), pipe, cat 2 (under second heat sheild), O2 sensor 2, then the rest of the pipe and muffler. My new thought is that I will still add a support from the bell housing to the exhaust, but I'm thinking about putting the flex coupling in between the cats. I would like to do this, so that I can retain both cats (and keep them under the heat shields). It would still suspend some more weight than just piping before the flex coupling, but I think that the bell housing support can handle most of that (in addition to my planned upgrade of the crossover weld joint). Anyone with thoughts about these issues, please chime in! __________________ Raj : 1960 Homo Sapien. 192cm, Blonde, Blue. Soon to lose spare tire. Worf : 1990 SR5 Xtracab 4x4 5 speed, Inca Red Metallic. 3.4 converted, with Taco 5 spoke alloys, 275/65R16 BFG AT K/Os. Soon to add rear e-locker.

06-27-2008, 06:15 AM	#214 (permalink)
breknraj Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Summit County, Colorado Posts: 862	Thanks, Elvota! That is very good to hear. __________________ Raj : 1960 Homo Sapien. 192cm, Blonde, Blue. Soon to lose spare tire. Worf : 1990 SR5 Xtracab 4x4 5 speed, Inca Red Metallic. 3.4 converted, with Taco 5 spoke alloys, 275/65R16 BFG AT K/Os. Soon to add rear e-locker.

06-27-2008, 01:47 PM	#218 (permalink)
Elvota Super Moderator Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Phx, AZ Posts: 3,442