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Old 09-29-2009, 02:57 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Engine Swap. Which is better? Gas or Diesel

So I'm tired of the horribly underpowered 5VZ. A supercharger is far too expensive for the lackluster gains and associated headaches. So an engine swap is in my near future. I've narrowed it down to two options.

Love to get feed back on either route.

1KZ-TE

Click the image to open in full size.

Pros:
  • Lots of torque down low (230 ft/lbs stock)
  • Ability to run WVO or biodiesel with minimial work; significantly lower fuel costs
  • Fuel efficient; mid 20's MPG mixed driving vs. 17-20 MPG mixed driving with 5VZ
  • Strong engine all around
  • Utilizes stock engine mounts
  • Super easy to get power out of

Cons:
  • Lackluster power (115 HP stock)
  • Expensive; dieseltoyz wants $8k for a complete front clip, but comes with custom wire harness
  • Must relocate trans crossmember (maybe that only applies to trucks with the 3RZ originally?)
  • WVO kits and an aux fuel tank are pricey
  • Aftermarket tuning products are expensive since most have to be sourced direct from Australia
  • Limited parts availability

My other option is the 1UZ-FE from a late 95-97 (ideally) Lexus LS/SC

Click the image to open in full size.

Pros:
  • Much cheaper; engines alone run from less than $1000 to complete donor vehicles with <150k miles for under $5000
  • Ability to run E85 with minimal work
  • Awesome power increase, more than most get with a supercharger (OBD-II, non-VVTi engines are 260 HP/270 ft/lbs)
  • Parts are easy to source
  • Ultra strong engine; older 1UZs "thick rod" can hold 400+HP easily
  • Can utilize easy to source tuning products from URD

Cons:
  • OBD-II engines and vehicles can be harder to find an more expensive; impossible to pass emissions with a pre-96 engine
  • Must fabricate engine mounts
  • A340E trans needs to be modified to mate with chain drive transfer case
  • Exhaust/headers must be fabricated
  • Clearance issues without resorting to large body lift (not ideal)
  • Not as fuel efficient as 1KZ but probably better than 5VZ
  • Custom wire harness needed; Phoenix Tuning charges ~$700 for the conversion
  • Lots of small mods need to fit into 4Runner engine bay, notably clearancing around the radiator and an electric fan
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What state are you in? That might have a lot to do with what you can do with your swap.

I was looking at both of these but I want to keep my 5 speed and that's the kicker on mine. I will most likely be putting a aluminium VORTEC 5300 in cause it's cheap backed by a NV3500. Gives me about 300/300 and will do just fine gas mileage wise. I also don't think it'll cost more than 1500 or 2000 max. The engine and wiring should cost about 3-400 and about the same for the tranny. Then it's no goofy combinations. If you want an auto it's even easier cause it's a lot more common behind that motor.

Anyways, bring on the flaming. Haha
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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i think the diesel would be awesome and fun
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:10 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkt1213 View Post
What state are you in? That might have a lot to do with what you can do with your swap.

I was looking at both of these but I want to keep my 5 speed and that's the kicker on mine. I will most likely be putting a aluminium VORTEC 5300 in cause it's cheap backed by a NV3500. Gives me about 300/300 and will do just fine gas mileage wise. I also don't think it'll cost more than 1500 or 2000 max. The engine and wiring should cost about 3-400 and about the same for the tranny. Then it's no goofy combinations. If you want an auto it's even easier cause it's a lot more common behind that motor.

Anyways, bring on the flaming. Haha
That sounds even more complex! And I'd hate to give up the incredible smoothness and perfect reliability of the Lexus V8 to a domestic lump.

You can keep a 5 speed with both Toyota options, just takes a custom bell housing. I've seen them for sale on some Aussie websites. Not cheap, but still reasonable if you need to keep a manual
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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diesel is my 2cents. They're just cool and gas is only eventually going to get more expensive.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
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harley ough
if you have the $, i would go diesel.
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you actually DO either, please post a s&*t ton of pics/info.
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Old 09-30-2009, 07:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The ability to run alternative bio fuels that are almost free and emit lower emissions is definitely a plus. Several people have passed emissions in AZ and CA with the 1KZ too.

Here's a great forum on the diesel swap:

http://www.toyotadiesel.com/forums/

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Old 09-30-2009, 09:19 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Horribly underpowered 5vz? Your crazy. Ever driven a 3vz or 22re? Probably not.

I bet that diesel will have less seat of the pants power than a 5vz.
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Old 09-30-2009, 09:30 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Well just for a reference, supercharging your 5vz and getting the necessary goodies to make it run well will run you about $3000-$3500 depending on how much you get the charger for. That will give you about 300-320hp at the crank, more than the stock 1UZ.

So the diesel swap costs about twice as much, and the 1uz swap will probably cost about the same if not more when everything is said and done. Although the supercharger's price tag up front can be hard to swallow, it's actually pretty hard to beat on a hp/$ basis.

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Old 09-30-2009, 10:28 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam F View Post
Horribly underpowered 5vz? Your crazy. Ever driven a 3vz or 22re? Probably not.

I bet that diesel will have less seat of the pants power than a 5vz.
When you add a heavy ass bumper covered in Line-X, sliders, bigger tires, skids, etc. and try towing in the mountains then you'll see that an anemic 180HP V6 trying to move a 5000lb vehicle with or without a trailer isn't fun.

I agree, the diesel probably wouldn't blow my mind with the power increase, but cheap fuel potential is tempting.

Quote:
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Well just for a reference, supercharging your 5vz and getting the necessary goodies to make it run well will run you about $3000-$3500 depending on how much you get the charger for. That will give you about 300-320hp at the crank, more than the stock 1UZ.

So the diesel swap costs about twice as much, and the 1uz swap will probably cost about the same if not more when everything is said and done. Although the supercharger's price tag up front can be hard to swallow, it's actually pretty hard to beat on a hp/$ basis.

The old school 5VZ kit is inefficient, requires far more tuning than I would want to mess with on a vehicle that I want to be reliable hundreds of miles from civilization and I certainly wouldn't put one one a 5VZ with 220K and not worry about longevity. Factor in another few thousand for a decent rebuild/upgrade of the bottom end and your instantly at new engine swap prices.

I also don't trust the 5VZ under higher boost levels. It comes from the era of Toyota engines with lighter weight bottom ends with spindly rods that cannot take the added stress. Well documented with rod failures on boosted 5VZs, later 1-2-and 3UZs, 1MZs, etc.

I've also never seen a 4Runner or Tacoma with that sort of power output from the supercharger. Maybe ~280HP at the crank, but the underrated OBD-II 1UZ certainly makes that much, too, and is far more reliable to boot.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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The old school 5VZ kit is inefficient, requires far more tuning than I would want to mess with on a vehicle that I want to be reliable hundreds of miles from civilization and I certainly wouldn't put one one a 5VZ with 220K and not worry about longevity.
I suppose that makes sense, but I'm hundreds of miles from civilization in mine all the time and don't have any problems. It's probably true that a 1UZ swap could be generally more reliable (but it is certainly is a lot more work too).

Quote:
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Factor in another few thousand for a decent rebuild/upgrade of the bottom end and your instantly at new engine swap prices.
I can see how you might want to rebuild the engine if you're worried about 200k miles of normal wear and tear, but the bottom end doesn't have to be upgraded to handle 300hp...

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I also don't trust the 5VZ under higher boost levels. It comes from the era of Toyota engines with lighter weight bottom ends with spindly rods that cannot take the added stress. Well documented with rod failures on boosted 5VZs, later 1-2-and 3UZs, 1MZs, etc.
Well you only need to put in about 9 psi to get the power levels I'm talking about, which isn't "high boost" by any means. I haven't seen any "well documented cases" of 5vz connecting rod failures due to pushing a relatively modest 9psi of boost. I can see it happening with a custom twin-turbo setup that accidentally leans out, but not with a TRD supercharger and proper fuel delivery.

Quote:
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I've also never seen a 4Runner or Tacoma with that sort of power output from the supercharger. Maybe ~280HP at the crank, but the underrated OBD-II 1UZ certainly makes that much, too, and is far more reliable to boot.
Well, have you actually seen any with a URD kit, or just the TRD supercharger? Just the TRD supercharger with no other modifications will up output to about 270 hp. However, it's pretty easy to get over 300 crank horsepower (about 250-260 wheel horsepower) with a TRD supercharger, URD 7th injector kit, and a 2.2" (9 psi) pulley. Yes it takes tuning, but a TRD supercharger really requires tuning anyway because the 5vz advances the timing too far for a forced induction application and can cause excessive spark knock.

In addition, the 5vz fuel system is undersized for the supercharger, causing lean conditions and possible detonation after a full-throttle run (which can cause the rod failures you are describing). You also get better power and lower EGT's if you run an AFR of about 12.0:1 in boost, rather than 14.7:1 which is what the stock ECU will aim for.

You should keep in mind that a 1UZ is a rare modification for a reason (I've only seen a handful of attempted 1UZ swaps, and only two with confirmed writeups of them running properly, both in 2nd gens). How many supercharged 3.4's are out there, tens of thousands?

Overall, it sounds to me like you're going to want to go the 1UZ route, which is fine. Make sure to get a donor car with a working tranny if you can, and cannibalize its electrical harness to adapt it into your 4Runner.
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
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That sounds even more complex! And I'd hate to give up the incredible smoothness and perfect reliability of the Lexus V8 to a domestic lump.

You can keep a 5 speed with both Toyota options, just takes a custom bell housing. I've seen them for sale on some Aussie websites. Not cheap, but still reasonable if you need to keep a manual
It's not going to be any more complicated swapping in a 1uz and keeping a manual plus I can do the whole swap for less than a bell housing from austraila. Those are about $1500 a piece. As for reliablitly, it's an LS series motor and has no trouble starting out at 300hp.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
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The more I look into the 1KZ the better it sounds.

With a chip alone you can get nearly 300 ft/lbs of torque. Add a simple manual boost controller or a Greddy Profec and get ~13 psi on the stock turbo. A bigger "CT20b" or CT26 bolts right in and can net even more power for not a lot of money. A better down pipe and 3" exhaust will kick even more ass. Even using the 5VZ airbox with a True Flow filter would net gains over the JDM intake.

With tuning and some mods, this could easily out perform a supercharged 5VZ in the torque department, with far more control over the power output. I'm sure 170 BHP and 300+ ft/lbs is easily within reach.

Only bad thing is it costs a nut and a sack. However, the sustainability factor of diesel really sells me. It is the fuel of the future. You can run B20 no problem, diesel itself is getting cheaper and is a more powerful fuel, and again, WVO is always a viable option. The 20 deep line of fat asses I see everyday in the drive thru of a new lame ass Jack In The Box down the street assures me that grease will always be readily available in America.

I figure a 1KZ setup to make awesome of power would come in around $10K, but with less headaches than a $6K 1UZ swap that would leave me with a real nice, engine-less LS400 to try and get rid of.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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i own both the 1kzte and the 2lte surfs,

the 1kz is a good motor and has heaps of usable torque, load of power from 1200rpm to about 3400rpm, power drops off after that in 2wd it will spin the rear wheels with 31 10.5 r15 on tarmac no problems will eat 3vz and 22r for breakfast, 5vz are slower than 1kz

i WOULD NOT turn up the boost on these motors more than 2psi over stock unless you have reset the pump and injectors to suit or you will get cylinder bore wear and it causes a knock in the motor that sounds like a big end has gone, (seen it many times)

a good inter-cooler and fuel increase will give you 145hp no problems and good torque gains (stock), the bottom end is virtual indestructible, large, wide bearings, with hardened crank, good strong rods

early short valve models had problems with the head cracking, this design flaw was fixed back in 1994-95, with the new long valve head,

use a Manuel trans radiator because of automatic trans cooler blocks off most of the lower radiator outlet to the engine,

make sure that you replace the viscous coupling silicon fluid in the fan hub, the main reason for overheating issues when towing or laboring the motor. due to worn silicon.

this is all mixed running around
early 90's 1kz done about 12-15L per 100k, (18usmpg - 15usmpg) (23-18 imperial mpg) ( newer than 1999 1kz were returning 10L per 100k or (usmpg 23.5)(28mpg imperial) in hiluxs, 11L per 100km (usmpg 21)(25mpg imperial) in the prado (landcruiser)

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
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i own both the 1kzte and the 2lte surfs,

the 1kz is a good motor and has heaps of usable torque, load of power from 1200rpm to about 3400rpm, power drops off after that in 2wd it will spin the rear wheels with 31 10.5 r15 on tarmac no problems will eat 3vz and 22r for breakfast, 5vz are slower than 1kz

i WOULD NOT turn up the boost on these motors more than 2psi over stock unless you have reset the pump and injectors to suit or you will get cylinder bore wear and it causes a knock in the motor that sounds like a big end has gone, (seen it many times)

a good inter-cooler and fuel increase will give you 145hp no problems and good torque gains (stock), the bottom end is virtual indestructible, large, wide bearings, with hardened crank, good strong rods

early short valve models had problems with the head cracking, this design flaw was fixed back in 1994-95, with the new long valve head,

use a Manuel trans radiator because of automatic trans cooler blocks off most of the lower radiator outlet to the engine,

make sure that you replace the viscous coupling silicon fluid in the fan hub, the main reason for overheating issues when towing or laboring the motor. due to worn silicon.

this is all mixed running around
early 90's 1kz done about 12-15L per 100k, (18usmpg - 15usmpg) (23-18 imperial mpg) ( newer than 1999 1kz were returning 10L per 100k or (usmpg 23.5)(28mpg imperial) in hiluxs, 11L per 100km (usmpg 21)(25mpg imperial) in the prado (landcruiser)
Wow, good stuff. Lots of info I need, thanks.

I think I'm going to scrap the mechanical fan altogether no matter what swap I go with. There's some Derale and BeCool fans that I think would work fine, or the Taurus fan in a pinch.

Would you happen to know if any aftermarket tuning box (Steinbauer, Dtronic, etc.) are user programmable for fuel maps? I'm having a hard time getting good info on these things.
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Old 10-08-2009, 12:36 PM   #17 (permalink)
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When you add a heavy ass bumper covered in Line-X, sliders, bigger tires, skids, etc. and try towing in the mountains then you'll see that an anemic 180HP V6 trying to move a 5000lb vehicle with or without a trailer isn't fun.

I agree, the diesel probably wouldn't blow my mind with the power increase, but cheap fuel potential is tempting.



The old school 5VZ kit is inefficient, requires far more tuning than I would want to mess with on a vehicle that I want to be reliable hundreds of miles from civilization and I certainly wouldn't put one one a 5VZ with 220K and not worry about longevity. Factor in another few thousand for a decent rebuild/upgrade of the bottom end and your instantly at new engine swap prices.

I also don't trust the 5VZ under higher boost levels. It comes from the era of Toyota engines with lighter weight bottom ends with spindly rods that cannot take the added stress. Well documented with rod failures on boosted 5VZs, later 1-2-and 3UZs, 1MZs, etc.

I've also never seen a 4Runner or Tacoma with that sort of power output from the supercharger. Maybe ~280HP at the crank, but the underrated OBD-II 1UZ certainly makes that much, too, and is far more reliable to boot.
Engine swaps are really fun on paper,shop talk, and BBS-BS, but you better figure by the time you're all done multiply your total "projected" cost by about 2.5.

Where do you get almost free diesel fuel??

TJMWO,

gNARLS.

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Old 10-08-2009, 06:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I swapped my 3vz to a 1kz-te. It has good power, I have a 3" intake/exhaust, intercooler, boost control, and turned up 'fuel screw'. I'm running 255/85/16 (34"?) tires and 3.73 gears and get 27mpg on the highway and 22-23 around town. It is not an easy swap as the diesel's were rhd and the wiring harness needs to be lengthened/modified. Manual transmissions are not easy to get because of the bell housing issue (other than that you could use R series transmissions). Grease for bio diesel is pretty hard to get, all restaurants are under contract and you really only want grease from chinese places. The engine mounts are not the same and will have to be fabricated, the oil filters have to be special ordered and cheapest is $10 per. Aftermarket tuning boxes are a rip off for these motors as diesels don't have an air/fuel ratio to worry about (other than too much fuel will burn your motor up, a pyrometer is a must!) and the ECU is pretty primitive and can be 'fooled' by changing a few resistance values. Stock these motors do well from 1800rpm and up, I don't think it pulls well from 1200rpm. (I'm trying to change that by changing a resistor). I also put in a 4 core V8 swap radiator and did a mod to make my temp gauge actually work (factory temp gauges don't move even after the water has heated up 20-30*c!) to keep an even keel on the temps. When I moved I pulled a tandem axle 6x12 u-haul trailer (combined wt of truck and trailer was just under 9500lbs) and managed 17mpg and 60mph. The swap was pricey, but worth it. However I had a 3vz that had just blown another head gasket....I don't think I would have swapped this in place of a working 5vz, of which I have driven a few of. So there is a couple of years of experience with a 1kz in summary for you, good luck
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:12 PM   #19 (permalink)
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i have a 2lte and might not be as good as91 diesel bigger but i love it to bits!!

i dont have a pyro but i never drive it hard.. when i get a 2.5 exhaust im putting one in though!! i have driven it for a few years and its just amazing! it doesnt win races as its a DIESEL and its a TOYOTA but you can feel the power and the turbo helps it go once you get over the lag...


im not going back to a gas toyota im always gonna look for diesel now.. might even pop ,my 2lte in my suzuki samurai and replace it with a 1kz-te when i find a bucket of cash
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Old 10-08-2009, 09:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Engine swaps are really fun on paper,shop talk, and BBS-BS, but you better figure by the time you're all done multiply your total "projected" cost by about 2.5.

Where do you get almost free diesel fuel??

TJMWO,

gNARLS.
Waste Vegetable Oil is practically free once you rig up an extra tank, manifold and heating set up. The only thing that doesn't make it free is the diesel needed for startup and shutdown and filters.

My last engine swap was a B16 into a Civic VX. Came in under $2300 with engine, LSD trans, Exedy clutch, Honda timing belt kit and even a new O2 sensor. It's all about how frugal and resourceful you are at finding parts!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 91diesel View Post
I swapped my 3vz to a 1kz-te. It has good power, I have a 3" intake/exhaust, intercooler, boost control, and turned up 'fuel screw'. I'm running 255/85/16 (34"?) tires and 3.73 gears and get 27mpg on the highway and 22-23 around town. It is not an easy swap as the diesel's were rhd and the wiring harness needs to be lengthened/modified. Manual transmissions are not easy to get because of the bell housing issue (other than that you could use R series transmissions).
How much power do you think you're putting down? How much boost? I have a hell of time finding out the numbers modified 1KZs put down. Your setup sounds similar to what I would like, except with a larger turbo.

I would probably get the harness made for me. After the 3 days I spent doing a brand new harness for my HID headlights, fogs and roof lights and the associated relays, I'm done with wiring!

I've heard manuals are tough to source, but I would just stick with an auto anyway. Not optimal, but easy and A340s can hold way more power than the R150 with some Raybestos clutch packs should I need to rebuild it down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91diesel View Post
Grease for bio diesel is pretty hard to get, all restaurants are under contract and you really only want grease from chinese places.
In Phoenix, there's hundreds of nasty independent Mexican food joints that I'm sure would love to get rid of their oil. And if you speak their language (i.e. Bud Light) then it's easy to get them to help you out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91diesel View Post
The engine mounts are not the same and will have to be fabricated, the oil filters have to be special ordered and cheapest is $10 per.
In 3rd gen 4Runners and Tacomas, the 5VZ engine mounts are the exact same as the 1KZ. Only difference is the trans crossmember, which is easy to relocate. Just grind it off, mount the engine, attach the trans, bolt on the crossmember and then simply reweld it where the new assemble places it.

I would use an Amsoil filter anyway, number Ea015. They last 17,500 miles on gas engines, longer on diesels, especially when the 1KZ uses 7 qts of oil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91diesel View Post
Aftermarket tuning boxes are a rip off for these motors as diesels don't have an air/fuel ratio to worry about (other than too much fuel will burn your motor up, a pyrometer is a must!) and the ECU is pretty primitive and can be 'fooled' by changing a few resistance values.
I noticed how extortionate the prices were for something so simple. Hell, I paid $200 for a Hondata S200 years ago and it's a far more versatile tuning device than an $800 Dtronic.

Can't believe these engines have been around for 15+ years but no one has really made inroads into a simple, cheap tuning box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91diesel View Post
Stock these motors do well from 1800rpm and up, I don't think it pulls well from 1200rpm. (I'm trying to change that by changing a resistor). I also put in a 4 core V8 swap radiator and did a mod to make my temp gauge actually work (factory temp gauges don't move even after the water has heated up 20-30*c!) to keep an even keel on the temps. When I moved I pulled a tandem axle 6x12 u-haul trailer (combined wt of truck and trailer was just under 9500lbs) and managed 17mpg and 60mph. The swap was pricey, but worth it. However I had a 3vz that had just blown another head gasket....I don't think I would have swapped this in place of a working 5vz, of which I have driven a few of. So there is a couple of years of experience with a 1kz in summary for you, good luck
I've towed the same trailer with my 5VZ and it was hell. Managed good gas mileage, but that was only because I could barely top out at 55 on the highway. Inclines were damn near impossible.

I certainly appreciated your review, though. I love to hear feedback on what others think of this swap. How much was yours all said and done?
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Old 10-08-2009, 09:36 PM
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1kzte, 3vz, 5vz, aluminium, automatic, chinese, diesel, engine, kit, ls400, motor, potential, rebuild, swap, swapped, swaps, toyota

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