route designation meeting Concord, Ca 8/2

Cougarfreak · 07-17-2007, 02:09 PM

Let's make a big impact and have a great showing at this meeting!!!!

8/2 7:00 pm - 9:00 pm Public Meeting Draft EIS Release Concord - Pleasant Hill Recreation Center, 320 Civic Drive, Pleasant Hill, CA 94523.

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Cougarfreak · 07-17-2007, 11:36 PM

Everyone, educate yourselves here:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596279

Cougarfreak · 07-27-2007, 09:28 AM

read the write up on the Placerville meeting here:
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=599901

blown4runner96 · 07-30-2007, 08:42 PM

BTT... this is important if you like your trails. Please read and gain interest. El Dorado is only the beginning. Educate yourself and pass the knowledge on... these are OUR trails.

more info here also:
http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...ad.php?t=74000
http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...ad.php?t=69902
http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...ad.php?t=76250
this is serious, they are trying to shut EVERYTHING down to motorized travel. So even if you don't wheel a truck, but use ATVs, dirt bikes, etc... it will affect you.

Fight to keep access to YOUR public land!

Cougarfreak · 07-30-2007, 10:48 PM

I'm meeting with several others at 5:30 at the 680/80 interchange at the Costco parking lot. We may meet some others from TTORA at the Chipotle in Walnut Creek at 6...

blown4runner96 · 08-01-2007, 06:31 PM

Sweet... Dean and Todd are going to meet us at the house and all five of us are going to carpool in. It's going to be crowded as it. I know Eric and Brian are meeting us there. Todd is going around today and distributing flyers to the local motorsports stores. I heard Folsom had over 300, this meeting should be atleast 300 strong. See ya there

Cougarfreak · 08-02-2007, 12:52 AM

I'm curious about a universal letter. We should gather and come up with one to raise our chances of having the most letters put in by Sept. as possible. The less work the masses need to do the more likely they are of sending something in. I think one thing we all need to know is how do we "be specific" about trails we want on the map? Are they looking for trail name, road # (if there is one designated to every trail), GPS coordinates... Has anyone asked this question yet? I'll ask tonite in Concord and post here if it gets answered. This would be key to having any chance of getting trails put back on the map.

**Lysmachia** · 08-02-2007, 01:25 AM

Woah... what is going on over there in Norcal? Man we have it easy here in c-rado compared to the legal nighmares you guys are facing! Let us know how the meeting goes...

blown4runner96 · 08-03-2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cougarfreak

I'm curious about a universal letter. We should gather and come up with one to raise our chances of having the most letters put in by Sept. as possible. The less work the masses need to do the more likely they are of sending something in. I think one thing we all need to know is how do we "be specific" about trails we want on the map? Are they looking for trail name, road # (if there is one designated to every trail), GPS coordinates... Has anyone asked this question yet? I'll ask tonite in Concord and post here if it gets answered. This would be key to having any chance of getting trails put back on the map.

What a joke... I suppose. As for writing a blanket letter, from what I hear they will only count each of the same letter as one. We've thrown around getting together to do some research and then helping each other write our own unique letter. Dean wants to get GPS coordinates for the trails, and Mike and Todd were talking about making a list of all the trails that currently exist in the area.

I swore, when Dick got up to speak I thought I was going to hear some profanity amongst other things. And in some respects I think what might have prevented that was the no answer from the FS. There were some angry people there, and I think Angry and Todd were the loudest and most vocal through out the whole meeting... Anyhow, I'm not letting this lie without a GOOD fight. You heard the one woman say, this is the beginning all of the forests in CA are undergoing the same reconstructions... argggghhhhh

We just got home, a bunch of us headed out for some grub and beers... after that painful 2.5 hours of "fillerbustering" we needed it... although there were some rather humorous moments throughout! Glad you guys made it out

Cougarfreak · 08-03-2007, 12:34 AM

Don't think you're safe in Colorado!!!!! We are the starting point for a NATIONWIDE SWEEP of similar action and are the furthest along in the process. I guarantee your time is coming. I would start looking for maps/information NOW to educate yourself ASAP. Many of us were blindsided by this and were only informed of the goings on over the last couple of weeks. They have been working on this since '05!!!!!

The meeting wasn't as bad as I figured it'd be, but it still wasn't Woo Hoo. I heard between 420-470 people in attendance, and a pair of Anti-Access-I-like-my-quiet types voiced their opinion. On the positive side there were many questions/comments mentioned that help our attempt to put routes on the map.

1 in particular dealt with writing in to the FS and tell them to strongly consider Alternate "A" instead of their proposed "D" then close on an as needed shown by scientific proof basis.

If it's resources they want/are lacking, offer assistance. Give the forest service your name and address and let them know you'll volunteer your time to help keep the trails open.

Tell them you want the proposed seasonal closures to be based on an "as needed" basis instead of a hard Nov-April

Their Stand (FS) is "It's a dynamic system and trails will be considered for adding or subtraction to or from the map on an annual basis". So, According to them, "Closed" isn't necessarily forever (remember, positive thinking).

Be specific about where your route is that you want added (FS site has route numbers for most of the trails. Those that don't have route numbers, use GPS coordinates and/or include a hilited spot on a map to indicate SPECIFICALLY which routes you want put back on the map). The better your "Why" is the more power it can punch, but a simple "favorite wheeling spot" is apparently an acceptable reason.

Send your comments before September 4th to:
A) Ramiro Villalvazo, Forest Supervisor
Attn: ENF Travel Management DEIS
Eldorado National Forest
100 Forni Road
Placerville, CA 95667

B) via e-mail in plain text (.txt), rich text (.rtf), or Word (.doc) To:
comments-pacificsouthwest-eldorado@fs.fed.us

In your mail subject line include:
ENF Travel Management DEIS

Eldorado Travel Management Hotline is 530-295-5666

blown4runner96 · 08-03-2007, 11:32 AM

Well according to the one woman who works for the govenor (can't remember her name, seen her on the last FOTR work weekend) a nationwide sweep is in order. My suggestion to all is keep track of the FS activities and stay educated on current situations with trails in your areas... Here is one letter Todd from TTORA posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PappaF2

Looks like BlueRibbon and some "friends" already wrote the forest service a nice letter. :xsmokin1:

.
http://www.sharetrails.org/uploads/P...L_08.02.07.pdf

Cougarfreak · 08-04-2007, 12:10 AM

WITH THE FS UNDER COURT ORDER, WE HAVE UNTIL SEPTEMBER 4TH TO GET IN OUR COMMENTS ON ALL CALIFORNIA FOREST ROUTES WE WANT TO KEEP ON THE MAPS, NOT JUST ELDO!!!!! :eek: We need to get ahold of all Forest maps and look at routes in other forests as well.

You can find the route numbers for Eldorado NF under app.F Alt.D routes and cross reference them to map 12 here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/...eis/index.shtml

A similar form to the one below can be sent to any of the National Forests whose addresses can be found on their respective web sites. All of California's National forests are listed here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forests.html

for Eldorado Forest: PRINT THIS OUT, FILL IT OUT, AND SEND IT IN!!!!

4Crawler · 08-06-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cougarfreak

WITH THE FS UNDER COURT ORDER, WE HAVE UNTIL SEPTEMBER 4TH TO GET IN OUR COMMENTS ON ALL CALIFORNIA FOREST ROUTES WE WANT TO KEEP ON THE MAPS, NOT JUST ELDO!!!!! :eek: We need to get ahold of all Forest maps and look at routes in other forests as well.

You can find the route numbers for Eldorado NF under app.F Alt.D routes and cross reference them to map 12 here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/...eis/index.shtml

A similar form to the one below can be sent to any of the National Forests whose addresses can be found on their respective web sites. All of California's National forests are listed here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forests.html

for Eldorado Forest: PRINT THIS OUT, FILL IT OUT, AND SEND IT IN!!!!

Been looking for a sample letter that would have all the requisite information that the FS is looking for in order to say "I want to keep all roads open". Anyone run across that sort of information?

blown4runner96 · 08-07-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Crawler

Been looking for a sample letter that would have all the requisite information that the FS is looking for in order to say "I want to keep all roads open". Anyone run across that sort of information?

At the meeting the FS said that any like letters (group letters of the same context) would be considered one letter, regardless of the amount. Here is a letter BRC had their lawyers send:
http://www.sharetrails.org/uploads/P...L_08.02.07.pdf
And here is a thread from BRC about the bay area meeting on Pirate:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=603161
A few of us are getting together for a letter writing "party". In which opinions and facts can be shared for each to write their own specific and unique letter. I believe a group is going to hold one in Sac and one in the bay area... apparently they are looking for specifics that entail trail numbers, etc. Not that in my true feelings these letter make half a difference. The FS is going through the legal motions in order to perpetuate their DEIS. Word has it the FS already has a good size order for gates placed. Sad, but true... they ultimately have no intent to consider our opinions

The letter is the most important step at this time because it allows each letter writer to have further involvement in the legal processes that will occur after the decision and plan is final. At this point, recourse in ways such as law suits will ensue. There is plenty of good info on all of this on Pirate's Land Use section, here:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18

4Crawler · 08-07-2007, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blown4runner96

At the meeting the FS said that any like letters (group letters of the same context) would be considered one letter, regardless of the amount. Here is a letter BRC had their lawyers send:
http://www.sharetrails.org/uploads/P...L_08.02.07.pdf

Do you have the full URL for that letter, the link is not valid.

I think this may be it:
http://www.sharetrails.org/uploads/P...L_08.02.07.pdf

Our club talked to some of the CORVA folks a few weeks ago and they said that letters were valuable. Basically they give a sense of the user sentiments on the issue that if ignored by the FS can be grounds for follow-up legal action.

I guess I am looking at what form the FS wants to see the routes listed. I mean do you write "I want to keep 7N01, 7N02, 7N03.... open" (whatever the list of route names are), or is more information needed? Seems that the output of one of these letter writing parties could be published for the folks unable to make it in person. Maybe a template with the boilerplate needed to make sure the letter references all the appropriate things, then perhaps a section where each writer can add their own inputs, or select from some developed in the meeting and some direction on how to keep the letter "unique" so that it won't just get thrown into a pile with all the others like it.

The easier it is for someone to write a letter and send it in, the more likely that that will happen and the more letters that will be sent.

blown4runner96 · 08-07-2007, 09:47 PM

Try this one...
http://www.sharetrails.org/uploads/P...L_08.02.07.pdf

Yes they want specifics. I think the example you made with route numbers plus reason is specific enough. Now I sat through over 2.5 hrs of valid questions followed by a vague excuse for answers, and I say answers very liberally. The FS and its reps weren't really answering any questions, more like filling space with meaningless words. One of our friends is also getting a list of politicians to write to. The more letters they recieve the more likely they are to address the issue at hand. As for right now, the letters are important... as you stated, they are our ticket to participation in later legalities that will follow. I try to keep up to date on this thread. If any more new info comes into my hands, I will be sure to pass it on. Otherwise there is already plenty of info spread about on different forums. TTORA's Land Use section also has some good threads for info...
http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...splay.php?f=27

and the thread I started in their off topic folder:
http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum...ad.php?t=76544

4Crawler · 08-07-2007, 10:13 PM

But still some sort of sample letter would be a big help. There are 62 pages of routes (approx. 46 routes listed per page - maybe 2800 in all!) listed on the ElDo FS site, some roads, some trails. For each and every person to have to browse through that list and cut and paste out all the roads for motorized vehicle use and craft even that into a readable letter is going to take a long time. I know someone must have done that, one of the organizations or whatever. It would be 100s of times easier to grab something like that and then put on a few personal notes and send that in.

07-17-2007, 11:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
Cougarfreak Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Woodland, CA Posts: 193	Everyone, educate yourselves here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596279 __________________ I don't care if you laugh at me or with me, just laugh!!! '97 4Runner, cstm Cougarfreak Exo n traction bar, Hi steer, SAS'ed w/ '81 Waggy D44 (superjoints, Chromos, and Chevy outters, n 4.56's) rear Ford D60 (35sp chromos, detroit n 4.56's), 35" BFG Muds, YJ rear springs military wrapped w/ waggy main in front, Chevy 63" springs rear, King air bumps, King 2.5" res. shocks, Marlin 2.28 dual, twin stick. Photo Gallery http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/inde...owPage=4Runner

07-27-2007, 09:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cougarfreak Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Woodland, CA Posts: 193	read the write up on the Placerville meeting here: http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=599901 __________________ I don't care if you laugh at me or with me, just laugh!!! '97 4Runner, cstm Cougarfreak Exo n traction bar, Hi steer, SAS'ed w/ '81 Waggy D44 (superjoints, Chromos, and Chevy outters, n 4.56's) rear Ford D60 (35sp chromos, detroit n 4.56's), 35" BFG Muds, YJ rear springs military wrapped w/ waggy main in front, Chevy 63" springs rear, King air bumps, King 2.5" res. shocks, Marlin 2.28 dual, twin stick. Photo Gallery http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/inde...owPage=4Runner

07-30-2007, 10:48 PM	#5 (permalink)
Cougarfreak Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Woodland, CA Posts: 193	I'm meeting with several others at 5:30 at the 680/80 interchange at the Costco parking lot. We may meet some others from TTORA at the Chipotle in Walnut Creek at 6... __________________ I don't care if you laugh at me or with me, just laugh!!! '97 4Runner, cstm Cougarfreak Exo n traction bar, Hi steer, SAS'ed w/ '81 Waggy D44 (superjoints, Chromos, and Chevy outters, n 4.56's) rear Ford D60 (35sp chromos, detroit n 4.56's), 35" BFG Muds, YJ rear springs military wrapped w/ waggy main in front, Chevy 63" springs rear, King air bumps, King 2.5" res. shocks, Marlin 2.28 dual, twin stick. Photo Gallery http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/inde...owPage=4Runner

08-02-2007, 12:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
Cougarfreak Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Woodland, CA Posts: 193	I'm curious about a universal letter. We should gather and come up with one to raise our chances of having the most letters put in by Sept. as possible. The less work the masses need to do the more likely they are of sending something in. I think one thing we all need to know is how do we "be specific" about trails we want on the map? Are they looking for trail name, road # (if there is one designated to every trail), GPS coordinates... Has anyone asked this question yet? I'll ask tonite in Concord and post here if it gets answered. This would be key to having any chance of getting trails put back on the map. __________________ I don't care if you laugh at me or with me, just laugh!!! '97 4Runner, cstm Cougarfreak Exo n traction bar, Hi steer, SAS'ed w/ '81 Waggy D44 (superjoints, Chromos, and Chevy outters, n 4.56's) rear Ford D60 (35sp chromos, detroit n 4.56's), 35" BFG Muds, YJ rear springs military wrapped w/ waggy main in front, Chevy 63" springs rear, King air bumps, King 2.5" res. shocks, Marlin 2.28 dual, twin stick. Photo Gallery http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/inde...owPage=4Runner

08-03-2007, 12:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
Cougarfreak Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Woodland, CA Posts: 193	Don't think you're safe in Colorado!!!!! We are the starting point for a NATIONWIDE SWEEP of similar action and are the furthest along in the process. I guarantee your time is coming. I would start looking for maps/information NOW to educate yourself ASAP. Many of us were blindsided by this and were only informed of the goings on over the last couple of weeks. They have been working on this since '05!!!!! The meeting wasn't as bad as I figured it'd be, but it still wasn't Woo Hoo. I heard between 420-470 people in attendance, and a pair of Anti-Access-I-like-my-quiet types voiced their opinion. On the positive side there were many questions/comments mentioned that help our attempt to put routes on the map. 1 in particular dealt with writing in to the FS and tell them to strongly consider Alternate "A" instead of their proposed "D" then close on an as needed shown by scientific proof basis. If it's resources they want/are lacking, offer assistance. Give the forest service your name and address and let them know you'll volunteer your time to help keep the trails open. Tell them you want the proposed seasonal closures to be based on an "as needed" basis instead of a hard Nov-April Their Stand (FS) is "It's a dynamic system and trails will be considered for adding or subtraction to or from the map on an annual basis". So, According to them, "Closed" isn't necessarily forever (remember, positive thinking). Be specific about where your route is that you want added (FS site has route numbers for most of the trails. Those that don't have route numbers, use GPS coordinates and/or include a hilited spot on a map to indicate SPECIFICALLY which routes you want put back on the map). The better your "Why" is the more power it can punch, but a simple "favorite wheeling spot" is apparently an acceptable reason. Send your comments before September 4th to: A) Ramiro Villalvazo, Forest Supervisor Attn: ENF Travel Management DEIS Eldorado National Forest 100 Forni Road Placerville, CA 95667 B) via e-mail in plain text (.txt), rich text (.rtf), or Word (.doc) To: comments-pacificsouthwest-eldorado@fs.fed.us In your mail subject line include: ENF Travel Management DEIS Eldorado Travel Management Hotline is 530-295-5666 __________________ I don't care if you laugh at me or with me, just laugh!!! '97 4Runner, cstm Cougarfreak Exo n traction bar, Hi steer, SAS'ed w/ '81 Waggy D44 (superjoints, Chromos, and Chevy outters, n 4.56's) rear Ford D60 (35sp chromos, detroit n 4.56's), 35" BFG Muds, YJ rear springs military wrapped w/ waggy main in front, Chevy 63" springs rear, King air bumps, King 2.5" res. shocks, Marlin 2.28 dual, twin stick. Photo Gallery http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/inde...owPage=4Runner

08-04-2007, 12:10 AM	#12 (permalink)
Cougarfreak Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Woodland, CA Posts: 193	WITH THE FS UNDER COURT ORDER, WE HAVE UNTIL SEPTEMBER 4TH TO GET IN OUR COMMENTS ON ALL CALIFORNIA FOREST ROUTES WE WANT TO KEEP ON THE MAPS, NOT JUST ELDO!!!!! :eek: We need to get ahold of all Forest maps and look at routes in other forests as well. You can find the route numbers for Eldorado NF under app.F Alt.D routes and cross reference them to map 12 here: http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/...eis/index.shtml A similar form to the one below can be sent to any of the National Forests whose addresses can be found on their respective web sites. All of California's National forests are listed here: http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forests.html for Eldorado Forest: PRINT THIS OUT, FILL IT OUT, AND SEND IT IN!!!! __________________ I don't care if you laugh at me or with me, just laugh!!! '97 4Runner, cstm Cougarfreak Exo n traction bar, Hi steer, SAS'ed w/ '81 Waggy D44 (superjoints, Chromos, and Chevy outters, n 4.56's) rear Ford D60 (35sp chromos, detroit n 4.56's), 35" BFG Muds, YJ rear springs military wrapped w/ waggy main in front, Chevy 63" springs rear, King air bumps, King 2.5" res. shocks, Marlin 2.28 dual, twin stick. Photo Gallery http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/inde...owPage=4Runner Last edited by Cougarfreak; 08-04-2007 at 12:11 AM.

08-07-2007, 10:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
4Crawler Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Posts: 7,836	But still some sort of sample letter would be a big help. There are 62 pages of routes (approx. 46 routes listed per page - maybe 2800 in all!) listed on the ElDo FS site, some roads, some trails. For each and every person to have to browse through that list and cut and paste out all the roads for motorized vehicle use and craft even that into a readable letter is going to take a long time. I know someone must have done that, one of the organizations or whatever. It would be 100s of times easier to grab something like that and then put on a few personal notes and send that in. __________________ 1985 Toyota 4Runner SR-5, 22REC engine, dual t-cases, 4.88 gears, dual ARBs, 33x10.50 BFGs or 35x12.50 MTRs r.c.brown@ieee.org TruckEditor@tlca.org Project: 4Crawler 4Crawler OffRoad Gettin'Off 4WD Club

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