In between a rock and a muddy place... - Page 3

idayota · 08-20-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waskillywabbit

If in doubt always err on the side of caution.

seems like wisdom to me.

WATRD · 08-20-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoclimber

Point taken.

Should a set of guidelines be made about the content of picture posted? In other words, if it even appears to be off trail (within a certain amount of reasonability, as there are some trails that aren't as defined), it doesn't belong?

What do you think about the reality of legislating that? Do you think that it's possible? (Not being contentious, just an honest question).

There's the horns of the dilemma. Plainly we don't want to be part of trails being closed down. I think all the wheelers here can agree to that.

But, on the other hand, I don't think we want a police state where you can't post up pictures for fear of having them and you deleted.

We could ask people to state that their photos were taken in a legal area, but they could lie and we then stuck with photos that reflect badly on the sport. We could delete anything that looked questionable, but then there ARE going to be honest mistakes.

That's what makes this sticky. As this thread has demonstrated, we still have folks who think Tread Lightly doesn't apply to them. Nothing shy of deletions and bans is going to work with them. On the other side, we don't want to come down on someone who posts up a photo of them in a perfectly legit area that looks bad... how to tell the difference?

Tacoclimber · 08-20-2007, 10:43 AM

Well, in the vein of "accidental deletions"...
"If you wanna make an omelet, you're gonna break some eggs."

Or is that a little too cavalier?

Of course, that's easy for me to post that, since I only wheel in areas I know to be open to wheeling... If I have any question as to the legality, I STAY OFF!

Rob, I'm thinking that if a genuine, honest wheeler posts up a pic that looks questionable, they are going to provide the details of the pic. If someone posts up a pic that is questionable, and was indeed illegal, and they provide no evidence to the contrary, they have no reason to squawk if it gets deleted, especially if the guidelines are made clearly known.

If someone violates the rules here at YT, and blows off the warning, do they really have a reason to be upset if they get banned or reprimanded?

"The law is for the lawless".

AxleIke · 08-20-2007, 11:34 AM

First of all, I take it my list idea isn't really feasible.

Second, I'm torn here. Deleting threads is one thing, but I take two different paths with banning. On the one hand, I really dislike people who don't tread lightly, and i take enormous personal satisfaction at seeing them gone. On the other hand, by banning them, you are just pissing them off, not really doing anything to correct the behavior.

See, we should be, and ARE concerned with image, but more so, we should be concerned with reality. If the guy isn't posting pictures on the site anymore of illegal wheeling, but is still illegally wheeling, then we've only solved about 5% of the problem.

When i sent photos to the sherrif including plate #'s, there were tangible results. Tickets were issued. Likely this isn't an endall beall solution, but it does have finanical consequences that most asshats will pay attention to.

So I ask whether we should be treating these people with contempt, and pissing them off, or should we respectfully but firmly try to help them change their ways? Its tough for me to envision doing the latter, becasue of the animosity I feel towards these people, but I honestly think it may be the better approach.

Tacoclimber · 08-20-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxleIke

First of all, I take it my list idea isn't really feasible.

Second, I'm torn here. Deleting threads is one thing, but I take two different paths with banning. On the one hand, I really dislike people who don't tread lightly, and i take enormous personal satisfaction at seeing them gone. On the other hand, by banning them, you are just pissing them off, not really doing anything to correct the behavior.

See, we should be, and ARE concerned with image, but more so, we should be concerned with reality. If the guy isn't posting pictures on the site anymore of illegal wheeling, but is still illegally wheeling, then we've only solved about 5% of the problem.

When i sent photos to the sherrif including plate #'s, there were tangible results. Tickets were issued. Likely this isn't an endall beall solution, but it does have finanical consequences that most asshats will pay attention to.

So I ask whether we should be treating these people with contempt, and pissing them off, or should we respectfully but firmly try to help them change their ways? Its tough for me to envision doing the latter, becasue of the animosity I feel towards these people, but I honestly think it may be the better approach.

Ike, you excellently expressed what I was trying to convey in my earlier posts. I think that I was focused more on the image of YT in the off roading world, and how posts that contain illegal activity reflect poorly on YT, specifically.

One of the things that I try to do as a climber is to encourage responsible land use. If I see that other climbers are thrashing an area, I feel it is my responsibility and duty to say something. Sometimes, however, it also means sticking around and cleaning up after the other climbers have left, cleaning trash, cleaning up chalk, etc. I have found that most climbers, when they see you being proactive, will join in. In effect, you win them over, not by yelling and screaming, but by being a good example. How that translates to the internet is a little more difficult.

There will always be those who disregard any rules. The question is, do we tolerate that attitude here on YT? Going beyond YT with the dealing of infractions is something that can only be done on a personal, case by case level.

***Corey*** · 08-20-2007, 12:04 PM

Wow, I take off for a few hours of shopping, and a lot of good debate here.
Good ideas, keep them coming.

And for a set of guideline type of rules for pics to post in the Trip Report section, someone could draw those up easily, vote on them, then put into a sticky in that section.

4biker · 08-20-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

What is to be done with mudding threads? How do we tell the difference between legal and illegal? Between a place where it's allowed and where it's not? Between an established area and resource damage?

Illegal mudding and resource damage don't have a place here. Yet we don't want to rule out threads from those who are responsible and mud in appropriate/legal places.

I realize that I'm still a newb on this forum, but I thought I'd chime in. There have been some pretty solid points brought up (and some crybaby-ing as well).
My first thought is that a great policy has been set in place - nothing illegal or it will be removed by admin. That is the best and most effective way of policing the threads.
I think it has been mentioned that most responsible posters will supply information about the circumstances of wheeling pics when they post - it's just common practice. If someone posts something that is questionable, they should clearly be called on it.
I spend a lot of time outdoors, and over the years, I've become more and more outspoken about (and into the ears of) idiots that misuse lands. Stand at any trailhead with restricted use long enough and you'll see someone drive right past the sign - it's inevitable. Mountain bikers live in constant fear of trail closure (same as motorcycle and atv users), rockclimbers lose privileges on private land all the time because of idiots, and 4wheeling is seemingly becoming a taboo in mainstream thought.
I absolutely applaud the mods for giving us a forum (specifically this thread) to weigh in on policy matters. I think we as a 4wheeling community owe it to ourselves to be more careful than not. I think we should all familiarize ourselves with the "!" button, but not overuse it. If a thread raises enough eyebrows, then action can be taken. I think we all have a lot of thoughts on this topic, as it's a great hobby that we don't want jeopardized. Ultimately, I am using a site for free, that the admin/mods are passionate about. If a thread is deleted for questionable material, I will respect that decision, and in most cases, I'll consider it responsibility. If a thread is left up with questionable material, we can all gripe about it and maybe someone will learn something. Just by opening the floor of discussion like this, the mods have given me confidence they will make the better decision. You can't control the world, but you can influence your little corner.
Thanks,
Spencer

***Corey*** · 08-20-2007, 05:54 PM

Good points Spencer.

The sad thing is there are a few members here who think that it is their God given right to tear down signs or gates for that matter as they believe they have a right to all the public land and can do as they please.

This is the mentality that gets our trails shut down.

stormin94 · 08-21-2007, 12:06 AM

I think illegal mudding is stupid, but mudding in legal areas can be fun(I've never gone mudding, but apparently it offers some sort of entertainment otherwise no one would do it) Idiots that just like to root around and destroy the trails should not have any place that they can post just to show how cool they think they are. But if we all started flagging the less obvious pics, I think we will see a sharp decrease in all picture postings on this site. I believe that people will be discouraged to post pics of them(or their rigs) 4x4ing for fear of them being deleted, or flagged as illegal. I think that small changes need to be done soon, then we can see how( or if) they work for our cause. Something needs to be done, but not anything drastic.

WATRD · 08-21-2007, 06:55 AM

Great feedback folks! Please keep the constructive discussion going. This thread is very likely to determine the policy on the forum moving forward.

At this point, the consensus I am seeing; is delete anything that is obvious and try to ask about anything marginal. But, most folks seem to be in favor of the pruning of questionable material as long as the mods are not too heavy handed and try to make an effort to seperate the legal from the illegal. It also sounds like most folks realize that might be a tough task and will cut the mods some slack, again, if the mods try to be more then reasonable.

I am also hearing that folks would be willing to use the report his post feature to assist that determination.

Am I hearing this correctly?

Tacoclimber · 08-21-2007, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

Great feedback folks! Please keep the constructive discussion going. This thread is very likely to determine the policy on the forum moving forward.

At this point, the consensus I am seeing; is delete anything that is obvious and try to ask about anything marginal. But, most folks seem to be in favor of the pruning of questionable material as long as the mods are not too heavy handed and try to make an effort to seperate the legal from the illegal. It also sounds like most folks realize that might be a tough task and will cut the mods some slack, again, if the mods try to be more then reasonable.

I am also hearing that folks would be willing to use the report his post feature to assist that determination.

Am I hearing this correctly?

Sounds like a plan to me...

The majority of this thread has been a good example of the definition of the word "forum".

IMHO, topics like this is the stuff that matters, rather than the endless debates of "SFA vs. IFS", BFG vs. Nitto, Steel vs. Alloy that so often soak this forum. Less drama, more direction.

Let's keep it up.

***Corey*** · 08-21-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoclimber

Sounds like a plan to me...

The majority of this thread has been a good example of the definition of the word "forum".

IMHO, topics like this is the stuff that matters, rather than the endless debates of "SFA vs. IFS", BFG vs. Nitto, Steel vs. Alloy that so often soak this forum. Less drama, more direction.

Let's keep it up.

Ahhh, you forgot one.
White letters out or in

Yes, lots of good debation here.

Tacoclimber · 08-21-2007, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey

Ahhh, you forgot one.
White letters out or in

In, of course.

04 Rocko Taco · 08-21-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

Great feedback folks! Please keep the constructive discussion going. This thread is very likely to determine the policy on the forum moving forward.

At this point, the consensus I am seeing; is delete anything that is obvious and try to ask about anything marginal. But, most folks seem to be in favor of the pruning of questionable material as long as the mods are not too heavy handed and try to make an effort to seperate the legal from the illegal. It also sounds like most folks realize that might be a tough task and will cut the mods some slack, again, if the mods try to be more then reasonable.

I am also hearing that folks would be willing to use the report his post feature to assist that determination.

Am I hearing this correctly?

Despite any personal differences between myself and some staff members, I think this is a good start to a good policy. I've been keeping my hands out of this thread, just reading and thinking, I think we've got it good, right here... I think again that this is a place to start, but we have to watch ourselves, and see how it goes. I do worry about a Big Brother mentality, but It hink the mods here are capable of being, if not always actively fair. I think a couple of points to watch would be..

a) do mods get slack as time goes on, and more pics start to slip through?
b) do members feel we are trending towards a police state and giving up one liberty at a time, in the name of good, until we have none left?

But I do think this is a good policy and should be instated soon before we get deeper into any holes, the further you dig, the harder it is to get out, right?

4biker · 08-21-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormin94

...But if we all started flagging the less obvious pics, I think we will see a sharp decrease in all picture postings on this site. I believe that people will be discouraged to post pics of them(or their rigs) 4x4ing for fear of them being deleted, or flagged as illegal. I think that small changes need to be done soon, then we can see how( or if) they work for our cause. Something needs to be done, but not anything drastic.

I definitely see that point as valid, but in how many instances have you seen pics that are even questionable? Honestly, more than 99% of the content is going to be legit and not have a problem. It's the less than 1% that we're talking about anyway, so it wouldn't discourage me to post pics with a description regardless of worrying if it were going to be deleted by the mods. I consider myself a legit poster, so I wouldn't even worry that a valid, nonillicit thread would be deleted.

Also, I agree with Rocko Toco with his points, but at some point, there is either a policy with some concerns, or no policy whatsoever.

I do not agree with Tacoclimber, however - white OUT.

04 Rocko Taco · 08-21-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacoclimber

In, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4biker

I do not agree with Tacoclimber, however - white OUT.

I actually have to agree with CJ on this one... White IN! (If you have black wheels) Otherwise...Fair game, either way.

08-20-2007, 10:43 AM	#53 (permalink)
Tacoclimber Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Between a rock and a hard place, AZ Posts: 3,491	Well, in the vein of "accidental deletions"... "If you wanna make an omelet, you're gonna break some eggs." Or is that a little too cavalier? Of course, that's easy for me to post that, since I only wheel in areas I know to be open to wheeling... If I have any question as to the legality, I STAY OFF! Rob, I'm thinking that if a genuine, honest wheeler posts up a pic that looks questionable, they are going to provide the details of the pic. If someone posts up a pic that is questionable, and was indeed illegal, and they provide no evidence to the contrary, they have no reason to squawk if it gets deleted, especially if the guidelines are made clearly known. If someone violates the rules here at YT, and blows off the warning, do they really have a reason to be upset if they get banned or reprimanded? "The law is for the lawless". __________________ CJ ...<>< 03 DC TRD Tacoma 4wd with a bunch of junk. Just wheel the stupid thing!!! But do it responsibly, ok?

08-20-2007, 11:34 AM	#54 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,535	First of all, I take it my list idea isn't really feasible. Second, I'm torn here. Deleting threads is one thing, but I take two different paths with banning. On the one hand, I really dislike people who don't tread lightly, and i take enormous personal satisfaction at seeing them gone. On the other hand, by banning them, you are just pissing them off, not really doing anything to correct the behavior. See, we should be, and ARE concerned with image, but more so, we should be concerned with reality. If the guy isn't posting pictures on the site anymore of illegal wheeling, but is still illegally wheeling, then we've only solved about 5% of the problem. When i sent photos to the sherrif including plate #'s, there were tangible results. Tickets were issued. Likely this isn't an endall beall solution, but it does have finanical consequences that most asshats will pay attention to. So I ask whether we should be treating these people with contempt, and pissing them off, or should we respectfully but firmly try to help them change their ways? Its tough for me to envision doing the latter, becasue of the animosity I feel towards these people, but I honestly think it may be the better approach. __________________ IFS SAS My mods aren't bling enough for the signature line. -All Terrains are for when you know how to drive.

08-20-2007, 12:04 PM	#56 (permalink)
*Corey* Co-Founder/Administrator Staff Join Date: May 2002 Location: Auburn, Washington Posts: 23,755	Wow, I take off for a few hours of shopping, and a lot of good debate here. Good ideas, keep them coming. And for a set of guideline type of rules for pics to post in the Trip Report section, someone could draw those up easily, vote on them, then put into a sticky in that section. __________________ Corey 2007 FJ Cruiser ARB bumper, Warn XD9000, OME lift, roof top tent, so much more, see my website & buildup thread PNW FJ Cruisers ☺ Detailing 101 ☺ Join Topsites ☺ Muffler Comparisons ☺ Maggiolinas In The Wild FJ Cruiser Buildup ☺ New Roof Top Tent ☺ Video Of My Penthouse ☺ Rehinge Your ARB/Engel Fridge

08-20-2007, 05:54 PM	#58 (permalink)
*Corey* Co-Founder/Administrator Staff Join Date: May 2002 Location: Auburn, Washington Posts: 23,755	Good points Spencer. The sad thing is there are a few members here who think that it is their God given right to tear down signs or gates for that matter as they believe they have a right to all the public land and can do as they please. This is the mentality that gets our trails shut down. __________________ Corey 2007 FJ Cruiser ARB bumper, Warn XD9000, OME lift, roof top tent, so much more, see my website & buildup thread PNW FJ Cruisers ☺ Detailing 101 ☺ Join Topsites ☺ Muffler Comparisons ☺ Maggiolinas In The Wild FJ Cruiser Buildup ☺ New Roof Top Tent ☺ Video Of My Penthouse ☺ Rehinge Your ARB/Engel Fridge

08-21-2007, 12:06 AM	#59 (permalink)
stormin94 Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lake County, CA/Sacramento Posts: 3,276	I think illegal mudding is stupid, but mudding in legal areas can be fun(I've never gone mudding, but apparently it offers some sort of entertainment otherwise no one would do it) Idiots that just like to root around and destroy the trails should not have any place that they can post just to show how cool they think they are. But if we all started flagging the less obvious pics, I think we will see a sharp decrease in all picture postings on this site. I believe that people will be discouraged to post pics of them(or their rigs) 4x4ing for fear of them being deleted, or flagged as illegal. I think that small changes need to be done soon, then we can see how( or if) they work for our cause. Something needs to be done, but not anything drastic. __________________ 1994 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4X4 208,000 miles and counting 3.0 V6, 5 speed 14/19 MPG city/hwy(before 33's) Current Mods Headers, 2.5" Flowmaster custom exhaust, K&N FIPK KC Daylighter 100 Watt lights Ranchos x4, 2" Lift Downey coils 33-12.50 M/T's, 1" t-bar lift, 1" body lift Tow pkg w/ lighthookups Silverstar Headlights, Pioneer Deck w/XM Brushguard 250Watt JLAudio 8" W3 Sub Future Mods 12V Aux outlet-400/800peak inverter roof basket/lights Air locker 4.88 gears H.O. Alternator

08-21-2007, 06:55 AM	#60 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,125	Great feedback folks! Please keep the constructive discussion going. This thread is very likely to determine the policy on the forum moving forward. At this point, the consensus I am seeing; is delete anything that is obvious and try to ask about anything marginal. But, most folks seem to be in favor of the pruning of questionable material as long as the mods are not too heavy handed and try to make an effort to seperate the legal from the illegal. It also sounds like most folks realize that might be a tough task and will cut the mods some slack, again, if the mods try to be more then reasonable. I am also hearing that folks would be willing to use the report his post feature to assist that determination. Am I hearing this correctly? __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA Prez Tread Lightly certified Tread Trainer I don't work here anymore... In fact, I seldom visit anymore. You can find me via the links in my signature.