In between a rock and a muddy place...

WATRD · 08-14-2007, 06:41 AM

As you may have noticed, "mudding" has sort of fallen out of favor in many places.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/willamette/r...v/mudding.html
http://www.fs.fed.us/rtr/rec-ohv.shtml

Yet, in some parts of the country, mudding is pretty common and there are completely legal places to do it.

As you are probably aware YotaTech is partnered with TreadLightly and champions those ideals. So, the question is, how do we balance this dilemma?

When someone posts a thread about mudding, how do we know the particulars? Up here in Washington, mudding on public land is illegal, with very few exceptions for parts of established areas like "Mud Lake" at Tahuya. And, mudding on private land is frowned on. Depending upon the particulars, it can be illegal on private land as well. But, either way, photos of previously green areas being torn up look bad and send a wrong message.

As I mentioned, there are legal places to mud, but they seldom look like a pristine green field. They normally have been used before and are in an established park.

What is to be done with mudding threads? How do we tell the difference between legal and illegal? Between a place where it's allowed and where it's not? Between an established area and resource damage?

Illegal mudding and resource damage don't have a place here. Yet we don't want to rule out threads from those who are responsible and mud in appropriate/legal places.

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WATRD · 08-14-2007, 05:36 PM

So, 39 views up to now and no one has an opinion?

MudHippy · 08-14-2007, 06:25 PM

Hmmmmmmm. I'm with ya here. Just trying to not be hasty with my response.
I guess for starts, I'll say that I FULLY support a citizens right to do what he pleases on his own property. Including the practices of common law.

As for public use areas, I'm just glad it's not enforced where I wheel. I'm equally elated that I haven't been witness to anything I would consider improper. My defintion is different than some, surely.

That's all for now.

MudHippy · 08-14-2007, 06:30 PM

Wait just a bit more. Do I see 1 or 2 trails? Is that is the question?

bballchrism · 08-14-2007, 06:37 PM

well here in fl that pretty much the onlthing we can do and the rule is if your on a marked trail that your allowed to be offroad on you can go through it but cannot play in it like just focuse on that one area
but there are areas owned by people and you can go muddin on that but usauly it costs like 15 bucks

linuxrunner · 08-14-2007, 07:15 PM

First let me say that I can see how mudding could become a problem very fast, a rig with 35” or 40” tires can trash a muddy meadow in only a matter of minutes. This kind of damage can take years to recover from.

I see that the first link is for my area, I had no idea about this new law. Thanks for the heads up although i don't go off designated trails and avoid large areas of mud, i will be sure to avoid trails if they are still muddy from snow melts. There are plenty of other things to do than trash some meadow or clearing, just move on and find somewhere else to wheel.

As for telling which posts are legal and which are not... i have no idea, i guess i would look at the state the original poster is from and if such restrictions exist than judge by the pictures or description of said event. Good luck trying to weed out illegal mudding from legal mudding.

**Lysmachia** · 08-14-2007, 11:50 PM

It is so hard to define mudding. A slippery slope I say (no pun intended) There are lots of pics of me going through a large mud puddle. (Bunce School Road) But that was all it was. More like dirty water really. Had it been actual gloppy mud I would stay out (if possible) as that can get dangerous to the land or your rig quick!

There is a designated trail here in Colorado near Steamboat (Elis Jeep Trail) That crosses several meadow/marsh areas and truly it is pretty hard not to feel as though you are tearing up the land. (We had never been there - can't say we will go back knowing that now). Still is is a designated public ORV trail.

Perhapse when folks post a pic like this is it best if they note the circumstances?

These pics are of Eis Jeep Trail and they are all absolutaly on trail. To go around the mud bogs would be to damage more wetland to either side of them!

Like I said not sure I would run this trail again now that I know how many wetlands have to be crossed...

stormin94 · 08-15-2007, 12:01 AM

Back in High School a few real "bad asses" decided to lift their trucks, and get the huge 42" tires, and also leave their diff's open. Any way, long story short, they tore up just about every good wheeling spot in town with those things(and also because they left their trucks in 2WD). They dig trenches that were like 3 feet deep, so no other rigs could make it. Now adays, almost all of the good trails are closed for the other 98% of us that don't abuse stuff like that. I like to go wheeling, and I couldn't anymore, so I moved. I agree with Tread Lightly's cause, though. We need to have designated areas for 4x4-ing, but also we need to make sure that people go 4x4-ing in 4x4.

Joe's Toy · 08-15-2007, 12:22 AM

You have a good point WATRD, I can't imagine to many yota-techers disagreeing with this post. Here in Vegas (where it never rains) haha they have this "don't be a dust hole" campaign going around and even though theres no way to avoid making dust there is a delicate way of doing it. I believe we are stuarts of the Earth and it's up to us to set the bar. How can we get angry at people littering all over our country if we're trashing it in other ways. Lysmachia I don't think anyones pointing fingers, we all have pictures or our truck with some mud on it.

**Lysmachia** · 08-15-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe's Toy

Lysmachia I don't think anyones pointing fingers, we all have pictures or our truck with some mud on it.

Oh I know no one is pointing fingers (Yet) But there are some people out there that like to get pictures or video of things taken out of context - like the pictures I posted - and cry "DOES NOT TREAD LIGHTLY!!"

So that was the point I was trying to make. That we have to be conscious of context. I think the best way to handle this is for anyone who does post a picture like the ones I posted - to make CLEAR what the circumstances were. Kind of like when you have pictures of you doing a killer obstacle and some person watching you do it who is NOT a part of your group is obviously holding a beer....

Unfortunately there too many jump to conclusions thinking you are drinking on the trail.

Some may say - well just don't post the pics. Ok that is one solution - and probably the safest.

But what if all you have in your area is Mud? (But it is all on trail?) Then you'd never get to post pics.

**Lysmachia** · 08-15-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe's Toy

haha they have this "don't be a dust hole" campaign going around and even though theres no way to avoid making dust there is a delicate way of doing it.

LOL So TRUE! When we were in Farmington for the TTORA Takeover some people would roar into camp swamping everyone with dust. It was so rude! We'd creep into camp (5mph) and the dust would STILL billow!

WATRD · 08-19-2007, 05:13 PM

Okay, I am bumping this since we don't seem to have a consensus.

Somehow we need to ensure that the photos that get posted are legal and do not reflect badly upon this sport. How do we do that? Do we outright delete threads that look marginal? Do we ask users to state in their post where they were and that it is legal to be there? I am not sure...

I am not sure what the correct answer is, but I can think of a couple of threads in the recent past where I had my doubts about what was going on. Unfortunately, we don't have to time to chase down the poster of every past event thread and ask them individually...

idayota · 08-19-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

Unfortunately, we don't have to time to chase down the poster of every past event thread and ask them individually...

maybe you dont have the resources to monitor the previous threads, but do you have the resources to monitor future threads? if not, then it seems like a moot point. on the other hand, perhaps a system much like what "Craigslist" uses could be employed. Craigslist utilizes a flagging system that allows casual browsers to "flag" a posting. the posting is not immediately removed. i'm not sure how many flags it requires for a moderator to look at it, but i am sure that as the amount of flags goes up, the priority of a moderator looking at the post goes up as well. just some thoughts...thinking out loud really.

...more thoughts: maybe after the posting has been flagged, a moderator would make a judgment call...either remove the post outright with a warning to the poster, or the moderator could give the poster a chance to explain the circumstances of the photo/posting officially within the post...give 'em like a two day window to edit the post or else it gets removed? again, just some thoughts.

WATRD · 08-19-2007, 05:44 PM

Actually, that's a good call. We have the "Report this post" feature already in action and it works. It's the "!" symbol in the lower left of every post, right below the poster's avatar.

We *could* have users report the threads, but that still leaves having to determine whether the wheeling is legal...

95RunnerSR5 · 08-19-2007, 06:22 PM

I see where everyone is coming from about mudding on illegal area's, wetlands, and other pristine places we need to preserve. Here in mississippi there are few to 0 off road parks and one of them local to me is nothing more than muddy trails through the woods next to a creek. Myself, i hate mud or anything similar that makes a mess so i try to avoid it, which is why i haven't been to these parks and don't plan on going. Everyone in this area builds their rigs to handle mud simply for the reason that there is nothing else to do with a rig around here. I'm not saying its right but i'm also not saying its wrong when done responsibly.

I think most this is a product of influence. In my area there are mudraces,bogs and other mud-competitions but I have never seen anything on rock crawling, trail riding, ect. Which leads me to believe most people don't even consider it.

This goes the same way for places that rock crawl more than anything. They probably don't mud bog, or whatever because the majority of people ride trails and rocks. Sort of like a form of peer pressure. Just like people around the open desert would be more likely to build a LT truck over a double locked crawler. Just my 2 cents

**waskillywabbit** · 08-19-2007, 06:33 PM

If in doubt always err on the side of caution.

MudHippy · 08-19-2007, 07:10 PM

Are we law enforcement here. I mean is it going to be enough to delete some pics of "alleged" illegal offroading. Or should we also ban the posting member and turn them in to their local sherrifs office with any and all evidence that will lead to their conviction?

How are you "proving" one way or another someones "guilt"? Till proven innocent? Is that right? Good greif!!!!!

By the way, the ONLY reason I purchased a 4 wheel drive vehicle was to get stuck in the mud less often.

And, I'll tell you EXACTLY what law enforcement(county sherrif deputy) asked me when he noticed my truck LAYERED in fresh mud. "So...I see you been playin' ". To which I responded, "Yeah, a little bit...these roads are a mess this time of year, but I'm really just out trying to find some grouse(upland game bird)". He chuckled a bit and asked for my hunting lisence for review, then seeing all things in order wished me good luck on my hunt.

I suppose what I'm getting at is IT'S NOT AN ISSUE where I wheel. People don't bitch about it and in MOST cases have NEVER heard of TREADLIGHTLY or what their purposes be.

If somebody doesn't want vehicles on a certain path/trail/road they drop a FAT log in your way and THAT'S THAT! When the log isn't available they dig a MASSIVE trench(not exactly TREADING LIGHTLY, ironically)to thwart your progress. Which is fine by me, though I still contend that I haven't seen any real need for doing either. I see most of these attempts as selfishly limiting access to good hunting or wheeling areas for no REAL gain on ANYONES part(JERKS!). It's just a ploy to further limit public access to places that should be freely accessible. You wanna stop "soil erosion"? Your barking up the wrong tree, try the lumber companies with their MASSIVE clear-cuts and their COMPLETE lack of care for these plots(replanting, erosion barriers, etc.). The miniscule effect of a four wheel drive truck couldn't possibly compare, sorry. BIGGER FISH TO FRY MY FRIEND.

As far as "legal" places to wheel in Oregon, the ONLY place I know is the Oregon Dunes National Recreation Area. Some 400-500 miles from me, and I ain't about to be a SandHippy. F-that, I hate the beach and I HATE sand.

Maybe I'm oblivious....yeah sure whateva! But I'm tellin' ya, NOBODY gives a rat's ___ around here about Tread Lightly. And you won't hear me preachin' that petty nonsense. So IF it has it's place, it's NOT in Clackamas County Oregon, and you can take that to the bank.

THE END

WATRD · 08-19-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MudHippy

Are we law enforcement here. I mean is it going to be enough to delete some pics of "alleged" illegal offroading. Or should we also ban the posting member and turn them in to their local sherrifs office with any and all evidence that will lead to their conviction?

How are you "proving" one way or another someones "guilt"? Till proven innocent? Is that right? Good greif!!!!!

By the way, the ONLY reason I purchased a 4 wheel drive vehicle was to get stuck in the mud less often.

And, I'll tell you EXACTLY what law enforcement(county sherrif deputy) asked me when he noticed my truck LAYERED in fresh mud. "So...I see you been playin' ". To which I responded, "Yeah, a little bit...these roads are a mess this time of year, but I'm really just out trying to find some grouse(upland game bird)". He chuckled a bit and asked for my hunting lisence for review, then seeing all things in order wished me good luck on my hunt.

I suppose what I'm getting at is IT'S NOT AN ISSUE where I wheel. People don't bitch about it and in MOST cases have NEVER heard of TREADLIGHTLY or what their purposes be.

If somebody doesn't want vehicles on a certain path/trail/road they drop a FAT log in your way and THAT'S THAT! When the log isn't available they dig a MASSIVE trench(not exactly TREADING LIGHTLY, ironically)to thwart your progress. Which is fine by me, though I still contend that I haven't seen any real need for doing either. I see most of these attempts as selfishly limiting access to good hunting or wheeling areas for no REAL gain on ANYONES part(JERKS!). It's just a ploy to further limit public access to places that should be freely accessible. You wanna stop "soil erosion"? Your barking up the wrong tree, try the lumber companies with their MASSIVE clear-cuts and their COMPLETE lack of care for these plots(replanting, erosion barriers, etc.). The miniscule effect of a four wheel drive truck couldn't possibly compare, sorry. BIGGER FISH TO FRY MY FRIEND.

As far as "legal" places to wheel in Oregon, the ONLY place I know is the Oregon Dunes National Recreation Area. Some 400-500 miles from me, and I ain't about to be a SandHippy. F-that, I hate the beach and I HATE sand.

Maybe I'm oblivious....yeah sure whateva! But I'm tellin' ya, NOBODY gives a rat's ___ around here about Tread Lightly. And you won't hear me preachin' that petty nonsense. So IF it has it's place, it's NOT in Clackamas County Oregon, and you can take that to the bank.

THE END

That is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have read on a 4x4 forum in a while. And, that is really saying something...

I am not even going to address your "points", beyond suggesting that you should consider becoming active in some of the organizations who are fighting to keep our trails open. You might learn something.

Please don't post back in this thread, you have demonstrated what you stand for and it has no place here.

idayota · 08-19-2007, 07:52 PM

x2. tread lightly = keep trails open...responsibly

95RunnerSR5 · 08-19-2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATRD

That is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have read on a 4x4 forum in a while. And, that is really saying something...

I am not even going to address your "points", beyond suggesting that you should consider becoming active in some of the organizations who are fighting to keep our trails open. You might learn something.

Please don't post back in this thread, you have demonstrated what you stand for and it has no place here.

I believe he's simply stating that the people in that area, and mine, for the most part have not heard of tread lightly or any such cause. They're either too ignorant to care or are not informed. I'm not trying to piss anyone off on this touchy subject, just helping to explain why people do these things.

***Corey*** · 08-19-2007, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95RunnerSR5

I believe he's simply stating that the people in that area, and mine, for the most part have not heard of tread lightly or any such cause. They're either too ignorant to care or are not informed. I'm not trying to piss anyone off on this touchy subject, just helping to explain why people do these things.

Then people need to get more educated on this subject, or sooner than you think, all of our trails will be shut down.

It is already happening at an alarming rate.
Ignorance of Tread Lightly! here at YotaTech is no excuse.
The link stares at you from the Navbar at the top of your screen.

YotaTech is a partner with Tread Lightly, so we do take their message seriously here.

WATRD · 08-19-2007, 08:40 PM

I understand that there are those who have not yet "gotten the word". But, to be aware of the principles of responsible stewardship of the land and to ignore them or diminish the current threat to our trails is irresponsible in the worst possible way.

idayota · 08-19-2007, 08:54 PM

so a little on the side, what is the best way to inform yotatech members about treadlightly? what can be done to raise awareness in our online community besides a link on the nav bar? more awareness might make more sense and do more than censorship.

idayota · 08-19-2007, 09:01 PM

hey corey or watrd, you might know: back when i was in high school we regularly made runs up the naches for trail rebuilding efforts under the pnw4wda...a lot of our time was spent building low bridges and catwalks over mud holes and creeks...how much do those cost and how receptive is the forest service to projects like that?

i know several times we helped keep trails open that otherwise would have been closed because they had meadowland/marsh approaches. personally, i would like to see more groups adopt projects like these. maybe the more these projects are highlighted, the more people on the forum will get the hint about treading lightly and keeping access open?

again, a little off topic, but in the ballpark, right?

Ric · 08-19-2007, 09:19 PM

thats going to be very hard to do...

since most people do post up the trail/area name when posting pics, IF someone else knows that trail/area, and that the area is ILLEGAL, or OFF TRAIL couldnt they just let ya know ?
I know that me and a few others have been on lots of trails here. some trails numerous times. so we can pretty much tell just be looking at a pic, (of a trail we know) if that posted pic is "illegal" or "off trail"

should we start doing that ?

But heres another issue, what if said pic, is of someone thats a highly respected member ? or even a staff member ? then what ?

I know that dont really help out, but thats all i got now.
I really want to help create and keep a positive image of the off road community..

08-14-2007, 05:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	So, 39 views up to now and no one has an opinion? __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

08-14-2007, 06:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 2,014	Hmmmmmmm. I'm with ya here. Just trying to not be hasty with my response. I guess for starts, I'll say that I FULLY support a citizens right to do what he pleases on his own property. Including the practices of common law. As for public use areas, I'm just glad it's not enforced where I wheel. I'm equally elated that I haven't been witness to anything I would consider improper. My defintion is different than some, surely. That's all for now. __________________ Sonoran Steel Early IFS Truss Your IFS is SPINELESS without it SonoranSteel.com I'm Cuckoo For YOTA Trucks!

08-14-2007, 06:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 2,014	Wait just a bit more. Do I see 1 or 2 trails? Is that is the question? __________________ Sonoran Steel Early IFS Truss Your IFS is SPINELESS without it SonoranSteel.com I'm Cuckoo For YOTA Trucks!

08-14-2007, 06:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
bballchrism Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: florida tallahasee Posts: 613	well here in fl that pretty much the onlthing we can do and the rule is if your on a marked trail that your allowed to be offroad on you can go through it but cannot play in it like just focuse on that one area but there are areas owned by people and you can go muddin on that but usauly it costs like 15 bucks __________________ 1985 4runner just painted Toyota red, marlin crawler bumper, bull bar, bikini top and 4 inch procomp lift, 33x12.5 bfg mt and black steelies Last edited by bballchrism; 08-14-2007 at 06:41 PM.

08-15-2007, 12:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
stormin94 Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lake County, CA/Sacramento Posts: 3,520	Back in High School a few real "bad asses" decided to lift their trucks, and get the huge 42" tires, and also leave their diff's open. Any way, long story short, they tore up just about every good wheeling spot in town with those things(and also because they left their trucks in 2WD). They dig trenches that were like 3 feet deep, so no other rigs could make it. Now adays, almost all of the good trails are closed for the other 98% of us that don't abuse stuff like that. I like to go wheeling, and I couldn't anymore, so I moved. I agree with Tread Lightly's cause, though. We need to have designated areas for 4x4-ing, but also we need to make sure that people go 4x4-ing in 4x4. __________________ 1994 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4X4 213,000 miles and counting 3.0 V6, 5 speed 10/15 MPG city/hwy(with 33's) Current Mods Headers, 2.5" Flowmaster custom exhaust, K&N FIPK KC Daylighter 100 Watt lights Ranchos x4, 2" Lift Downey coils 33-12.50 M/T's, 1" t-bar lift, 1" body lift Tow pkg w/ lighthookups Silverstar Headlights, Pioneer Deck w/XM Brushguard 250Watt JLAudio 8" W3 Sub Future Mods 12V Aux outlet-400/800peak inverter roof basket/lights Air locker 4.88 gears H.O. Alternator

08-15-2007, 12:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
Joe's Toy Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 510	You have a good point WATRD, I can't imagine to many yota-techers disagreeing with this post. Here in Vegas (where it never rains) haha they have this "don't be a dust hole" campaign going around and even though theres no way to avoid making dust there is a delicate way of doing it. I believe we are stuarts of the Earth and it's up to us to set the bar. How can we get angry at people littering all over our country if we're trashing it in other ways. Lysmachia I don't think anyones pointing fingers, we all have pictures or our truck with some mud on it. __________________ "And they called him a Hebrew Slave" 2003 Tacoma Prerunner, Double cab, 3.4 5VZ-FE, auto. 2wd, rear e-locker My Profile (06/09/07)-Deckplate-(07/14/07)-ISR-(08/27/07)-WARN 4300K HID lights-(11/22/07)-True-Cool Tranny Cooler-(12/25/07) -Tru Flow air filter-(12/25/07) -Husky Floor Liners-(02/14/08)-ScanGaugeII-(04/30/08)-Glassworks Unlimited hood-(12/22/08)-Dynomax Muffler-

08-19-2007, 05:13 PM	#12 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	Okay, I am bumping this since we don't seem to have a consensus. Somehow we need to ensure that the photos that get posted are legal and do not reflect badly upon this sport. How do we do that? Do we outright delete threads that look marginal? Do we ask users to state in their post where they were and that it is legal to be there? I am not sure... I am not sure what the correct answer is, but I can think of a couple of threads in the recent past where I had my doubts about what was going on. Unfortunately, we don't have to time to chase down the poster of every past event thread and ask them individually... __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search Last edited by WATRD; 08-19-2007 at 05:15 PM.

08-19-2007, 05:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	Actually, that's a good call. We have the "Report this post" feature already in action and it works. It's the "!" symbol in the lower left of every post, right below the poster's avatar. We could have users report the threads, but that still leaves having to determine whether the wheeling is legal... __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

08-19-2007, 06:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
waskillywabbit Super Moderator-Sponsoring Member Staff Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tuscaloosa, AL Posts: 14,546	If in doubt always err on the side of caution. __________________ WabFab Off-Road, LLC MySpace Twitter Facebook 7th Annual South East 4Runner Jamboree, 2010 The toughest part of a Jeep is the chick driving it. WabFab Off-Road 4th Anniversary Sale

08-19-2007, 07:10 PM	#17 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 2,014	Are we law enforcement here. I mean is it going to be enough to delete some pics of "alleged" illegal offroading. Or should we also ban the posting member and turn them in to their local sherrifs office with any and all evidence that will lead to their conviction? How are you "proving" one way or another someones "guilt"? Till proven innocent? Is that right? Good greif!!!!! By the way, the ONLY reason I purchased a 4 wheel drive vehicle was to get stuck in the mud less often. And, I'll tell you EXACTLY what law enforcement(county sherrif deputy) asked me when he noticed my truck LAYERED in fresh mud. "So...I see you been playin' ". To which I responded, "Yeah, a little bit...these roads are a mess this time of year, but I'm really just out trying to find some grouse(upland game bird)". He chuckled a bit and asked for my hunting lisence for review, then seeing all things in order wished me good luck on my hunt. I suppose what I'm getting at is IT'S NOT AN ISSUE where I wheel. People don't bitch about it and in MOST cases have NEVER heard of TREADLIGHTLY or what their purposes be. If somebody doesn't want vehicles on a certain path/trail/road they drop a FAT log in your way and THAT'S THAT! When the log isn't available they dig a MASSIVE trench(not exactly TREADING LIGHTLY, ironically)to thwart your progress. Which is fine by me, though I still contend that I haven't seen any real need for doing either. I see most of these attempts as selfishly limiting access to good hunting or wheeling areas for no REAL gain on ANYONES part(JERKS!). It's just a ploy to further limit public access to places that should be freely accessible. You wanna stop "soil erosion"? Your barking up the wrong tree, try the lumber companies with their MASSIVE clear-cuts and their COMPLETE lack of care for these plots(replanting, erosion barriers, etc.). The miniscule effect of a four wheel drive truck couldn't possibly compare, sorry. BIGGER FISH TO FRY MY FRIEND. As far as "legal" places to wheel in Oregon, the ONLY place I know is the Oregon Dunes National Recreation Area. Some 400-500 miles from me, and I ain't about to be a SandHippy. F-that, I hate the beach and I HATE sand. Maybe I'm oblivious....yeah sure whateva! But I'm tellin' ya, NOBODY gives a rat's ___ around here about Tread Lightly. And you won't hear me preachin' that petty nonsense. So IF it has it's place, it's NOT in Clackamas County Oregon, and you can take that to the bank. THE END __________________ Sonoran Steel Early IFS Truss Your IFS is SPINELESS without it SonoranSteel.com I'm Cuckoo For YOTA Trucks!

08-19-2007, 07:52 PM	#19 (permalink)
idayota Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 575	x2. tread lightly = keep trails open...responsibly __________________ *Wherever, Whenever, However...Tread Lightly!***

08-19-2007, 08:40 PM	#22 (permalink)
WATRD Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duvall, WA Posts: 5,109	I understand that there are those who have not yet "gotten the word". But, to be aware of the principles of responsible stewardship of the land and to ignore them or diminish the current threat to our trails is irresponsible in the worst possible way. __________________ -Rob Slightly Modified 2001 Tacoma - WATRD.COM WATTORA is becoming NWToys! Tread Lightly! certified Tread Trainer Search 100+ Toyota tech sites, including this one: Toyota Tech Search

08-19-2007, 08:54 PM	#23 (permalink)
idayota Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 575	so a little on the side, what is the best way to inform yotatech members about treadlightly? what can be done to raise awareness in our online community besides a link on the nav bar? more awareness might make more sense and do more than censorship. __________________ *Wherever, Whenever, However...Tread Lightly!*** Last edited by idayota; 08-19-2007 at 08:59 PM.

08-19-2007, 09:01 PM	#24 (permalink)
idayota Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 575	hey corey or watrd, you might know: back when i was in high school we regularly made runs up the naches for trail rebuilding efforts under the pnw4wda...a lot of our time was spent building low bridges and catwalks over mud holes and creeks...how much do those cost and how receptive is the forest service to projects like that? i know several times we helped keep trails open that otherwise would have been closed because they had meadowland/marsh approaches. personally, i would like to see more groups adopt projects like these. maybe the more these projects are highlighted, the more people on the forum will get the hint about treading lightly and keeping access open? again, a little off topic, but in the ballpark, right? __________________ *Wherever, Whenever, However...Tread Lightly!***

08-19-2007, 09:19 PM	#25 (permalink)
Ric Banned - User requested Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: earth Posts: 4,494	thats going to be very hard to do... since most people do post up the trail/area name when posting pics, IF someone else knows that trail/area, and that the area is ILLEGAL, or OFF TRAIL couldnt they just let ya know ? I know that me and a few others have been on lots of trails here. some trails numerous times. so we can pretty much tell just be looking at a pic, (of a trail we know) if that posted pic is "illegal" or "off trail" should we start doing that ? But heres another issue, what if said pic, is of someone thats a highly respected member ? or even a staff member ? then what ? I know that dont really help out, but thats all i got now. I really want to help create and keep a positive image of the off road community..

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