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Old 12-01-2005, 05:53 PM   #1
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Angry Remote Start problems!

Why would it take longer to start a car when it's
been sitting for a while? I recently purchased a
remote start system and the sys. only works when I've
just ran the car. It only takes a second for it to turn over

The problem lies mainly when the 4Runner has been
sitting for a while or is really cold. I had made
three trips to Circuit City to make adjustments. I've
even requested for the remote start to crank over for
2 second durations, instead of the ~1.4 second factory
preset. I've been told that this is with the
compromise of the starter's longevity. I mentioned
'only if the car actually starts the engine sooner'.
My battery is about a 1 1/2 years old. It's a Red
Top Optima dry cell one. The car cranks over just as
fast as when it's warm. I'm thinking it's a fuel
pressure issue.
I don't know what to do. I really want this to work
this winter, because it can not be garaged. I might
have to see about returning the system or going to a
dealership first for diagnosis if it's the car and not
a design flaw. I paid 330.00 bucks for this and the damn thing not only doesn't work, I used to work there and I can't get a better deal anymore!
note: I had to use the valet key for a module inside the dash for this to work. I do not suspect that since the car starts when warm just fine, that this has anything to do with the cold start issues.
any input is appreciated.
My 30 day return is up in 5 days!
ew
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Last edited by erik; 12-01-2005 at 05:58 PM. Reason: adding info
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Old 12-01-2005, 09:31 PM   #2
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erik,

let me try to understand your problem:

a) you have the toyota engine immobilizer
b) you have the stock toyota keyless entry system
c) you added an aftermarket remote starter

correct?

if i recall from my own alarm install which has the remote start capability, you have to have an add-on device to bypass the engine immobilizer. do you have that? if you dont know what im talking about, you may want to check your install manual

also, the timing problem is also something that can be adjusted. on my system, you can program it to any length of time. if yours is anything like mine, check the install manual or operations manual to see if this can be programmed on yours.

sorry i cant help you beyond saying "read the manual" but hopefully those tips might help point you in the right direction

bob
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Old 12-01-2005, 11:13 PM   #3
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does the engine take just as long to start with the key when cold?what brand and model of rem.starter do you have? also, ask the installer if they used "tach sensing or alternator sensing " tach sensing is a more accurate way for the rem.starter to tell if the engine is running.it just takes a little longer to hook up.alt sensing monitors the voltage increase.ie 12v up to 14v when running . its alittle harder for the rem.starter to monitor the voltage if the blower motor is cranked or other acc`s are on .i have compustart in my 92 and it will crank until the engine starts. i think 4 sec. max crank.the starter motor will disengage asoon as theres a jump in rpm.(tach sensing). bob`s got it right. get the install manual and read it too. rem. starters aren`t rocket science once you see how they work.
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:09 AM   #4
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It didn't come with a tech manual. Just an operations manual.
a) you have the toyota engine immobilizer. >>>>>>>>I don't know. What is it? What does it do for you?

b) you have the stock toyota keyless entry system. >>>>>>>Yes. still intact.

c) you added an aftermarket remote starter. >>>>>>>Yes. by Circuit City.

does the engine take just as long to start with the key when cold? ~1sec warm. ~2seconds when cold.

It's a Python 1400 XP. From what I recall I was told. The sys is installed with the tach sensing wires. However, That didn't seem to work for cold starts. So the last two times I had them adjust the duration of crank time higher. By adjusting the crank time up, (from the Pythons factory default 1.2seconds) up to 2 seconds, it overriddes the crank sensing feature unfortunately. So as an example, there was one time when testing the new setting and the car was warm that the 2 second crank interval was set to long and the engine started about a second sooner and the starter continued till the end of the 2 second duration.
That would be a bad thing to repeat that cenario, but it had to be tested and I was aware of this, so to prevent it from happening again. The truck sits out in the cold during the night so it needs a longer crank time to start with the key or with the remote, either way. So I don't think it's the remote system's fault. Maybe I'll have to turn off the heater fans, stereo, anything else I can before I attempt restart.
The factory keys I have are the fat ones. So the keys have the transmitter in it. So I don't know if that means that I need a bypass for the engine immobilizer or not? Because I really don't know what that does. I'm using a valet key in a electrical box under the dash for this system to work with the factory keyless and remote sys.
The valet key was said to cause starting problems on some vehiciles, but I think the installers were meaning that concern was for the signal to engauge the start sequence. Not what I'm experiencing. The remote reception of the signal works relatively good.
The truck will start up just fine when the truck has been driven recient. The cranking speed seems the same cold as when the car is warm.
For you guys experiencing cold startups using your keys. How much time does it take for it to fire up? Is my auto cranking over longer than what should be nessassary (when cold) for an otherwise good condition 2000 Ltd. 4Runner????

Additionally. I can go back into Circuit City and have them set it to the next step up wich is 3 seconds. But that's quite a jump from the 2 seconds I have it set to allready. I wonder if there is a different brand that can be adjusted to like 4 seconds but automatically shut the starter down when it does see the voltages or Rpms go up. Apparently this brand cannot.

Update: I just had the truck parked all day and all evening. It's 29 degrees out and made sure that all the assessories are turned off before I attempted this test. Then I used the key to start the car since I knew the remote start wouldn't work when the car is this cold. With the key it took _no more_ than 2 seconds to get it going. Then I let the engine warm up a bit before I shut it down. Then I stepped out of the car with keys in hand and tryied to start it with the remote. I never did start with a few attempts. I tried this process twice and the remote start definately takes more time to start the car than if I were to use the key when its cold.
Why is that?


ew

Last edited by erik; 12-02-2005 at 12:48 AM. Reason: adding info
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Old 12-02-2005, 11:30 AM   #5
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http://www.abtelectronics.com/images...N562P_6-03.pdf
try this. i think its the right to link to their site. download the manual. also, ask how the wireing is connected to the ign. harness. some shops use scotch locks or solderless "t-taps". possible voltage drop if not soldered. ign/fuel sys not getting full power?
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Old 12-02-2005, 11:33 AM   #6
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p.s. it wasn`t the "free install" was it? if so, you know every shortcut was taken right?
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Old 12-04-2005, 10:11 PM   #7
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remote start update

Well. It seems that the module inside the dash that houses one of the factory keys needs the original, main (black colored) key instead of the valet (grey colr) key.
I was told that this might be a concern early on. But only mentioned once before I concidered the install. The option was if it didn't work a certian way, then the other main key would have to be used instead. Keep in mind that I would have switched the keys out sooner if I was given the right impression that THIS type of problem could exsist. Or if the 2nd and 3rd other visits I've made, they would have mentioned it.
I preferred to use the valet key so that if there was some sort of need for the main key for manual (key turning) ignition, that I would have it on my key chain to use.
The reasoning behind why I think this remote start problem lies in the compatibility with the valet key and the Python remote start system is (thanks to 4chucker's info ) in reading the manual, one of the troubleshooting tips is to insert the key into the lock and then use the remote to start the car.
It "turns" out (lol) that it is possibly the chip in the main key that sends a slightly different signal to the vehicle's computer. Telling it that it's OK to start the car "efficiently" in stead of starting it sometimes.
If my theroy is correct, then when I get a chance to make an appointment to have the installers swich out one key for the other, I will know for sure if this solves my problem.
I'll let you guys know. As I'm sure this concern could pop up in the future.
_I just hope that in doing this key swap will not leave myself stranded if the car goes haywire for some reason and I can not start the car with it's own valet key. ??
ew

Last edited by erik; 12-04-2005 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 12-04-2005, 10:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik
It "turns" out (lol) that it is possibly the chip in the main key that sends a slightly different signal to the vehicle's computer. Telling it that it's OK to start the car "efficiently" in stead of starting it sometimes.
That's not true at all. If you have an immobilizer system, then if you try to start your car without the proper chip it won't start, period.

Maybe it's because it's late, but I am having a hard time trying to understand what you are trying to day.

My comments about this whole issue:

A) You can't expect the engine to crank fast when it's cold, all the oil has drained into the pan and there is not as much lubrication available to aid the starting process.

B) If the remote starting system has a crank sensor, then it should work. If it doesn't go to CC and tell them that it doesn't work as advertised and that they better fix it for free or refund the money and pull the product without any electrical damage. Then, go buy a Commando system

C) I doubt Valet/Main keys do anything. As someone said earlier, Toyotas with the Immobilizer feature need an extra thingy for remote start to work, and if it's not there, the engine won't even turn over. If the remote start causes the start to engage, then it's not that either.

D) As I said in B, have them fix it. There is no need to adjust your seconds and ruin your own starter because someone elses advertised features don't work. Be smart, play it safe.
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Old 12-04-2005, 11:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik
Well. It seems that the module inside the dash that houses one of the factory keys needs the original, main (black colored) key instead of the valet (grey colr) key.
I was told that this might be a concern early on. But only mentioned once before I concidered the install. The option was if it didn't work a certian way, then the other main key would have to be used instead. Keep in mind that I would have switched the keys out sooner if I was given the right impression that THIS type of problem could exsist. Or if the 2nd and 3rd other visits I've made, they would have mentioned it.
I preferred to use the valet key so that if there was some sort of need for the main key for manual (key turning) ignition, that I would have it on my key chain to use.
The reasoning behind why I think this remote start problem lies in the compatibility with the valet key and the Python remote start system is (thanks to 4chucker's info ) in reading the manual, one of the troubleshooting tips is to insert the key into the lock and then use the remote to start the car.
It "turns" out (lol) that it is possibly the chip in the main key that sends a slightly different signal to the vehicle's computer. Telling it that it's OK to start the car "efficiently" in stead of starting it sometimes.
If my theroy is correct, then when I get a chance to make an appointment to have the installers swich out one key for the other, I will know for sure if this solves my problem.
I'll let you guys know. As I'm sure this concern could pop up in the future.
_I just hope that in doing this key swap will not leave myself stranded if the car goes haywire for some reason and I can not start the car with it's own valet key. ??
ew

you know, the first time i read your original post, i was thinking "why doesnt this guy just rip out the old stuff and have just one system?" but since you already chose your path, i didnt want to suggest it

now if it is a compatibility/conflict issue, would you consider ripping out the old keyless entry system and disabling/removing the engine immobilzer (if possible)? if it were me, that's what i would do because in the event that somethign goes wrong, you are only troubleshooting one system vs three.

bob
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Old 12-04-2005, 11:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko3xl3
C) I doubt Valet/Main keys do anything. As someone said earlier, Toyotas with the Immobilizer feature need an extra thingy for remote start to work, and if it's not there, the engine won't even turn over. If the remote start causes the start to engage, then it's not that either.
I've been reading this thread and shaking my head a bit... I have a theory and I'm hoping I'm wrong...

What's the possibility that Python has some sort of ignition hack for these systems that requires an original coded key (like your spare) in order to work? I figure that they'd pass it off as a security feature so that you could disable the remote start by just pulling your spare key out of this module.

Personally... ugh. Sounds like a real hack tying up a key like that. It also sounds like the CC install is just as hacky. Actually... I wonder if this key thing is actually a CC hack and has nothing to do with Python.


And like Bob says... just rip out the original and replace it with the Python - or save yourself $200, return the Python and install a Commando FM-870, with a REAL solution for the keyed ignitions.

And by all means... Get a copy of the install and config manual for the system! OMG! You paid for EVERYTHING that came with the system - you should have it in your hands. I would be PISSED if I spent money like this and had to keep going back to the jacks at CC to get options changed.
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:02 AM   #11
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erik,

My '98 takes longer to remote start after it's been sitting too. I also feel like it's a fuel pressure issue. Generally, when it doesn't start on the first try it does on the second. It's like the first attempt builds up fuel pressure to the point where it starts right up on the second try.

It's the same for me whether I use the key or the remote start. It cranks just as quickly after sitting, but takes longer to fire up. Like yours it's about 2 seconds after sitting overnight and 1 second if it's been run recently.

It's been a while since I installed it, but I think I increased the crank time a little but didn't want to go too far. I didn't want the starter cranking after it had already fired up.

Mine is the same Commando FM-870 that midiwall has. I don't have the crank sensor hooked up so I don't know if that would make a difference or not. I also don't have the chipped keys so the bypass module wasn't necessary.

No solution. Just letting you know you're not alone...
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:17 AM   #12
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by the way, mark, kevin and i have the commando 870. it is currently being discounted $20 by the company for yotatech members only. see our vendor section if you are interested.

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Old 12-05-2005, 01:26 PM   #13
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the "thingy" in your key is a transponder. there is a small coil around your ign sw. when you turn the key on, the imoblizer sys. powers up the coil ,which in turn makes the chip in your key transmit a freq. the coil also reads that freq and reports back to the imob. sys. freq correct( key programed to vehicle), vehicle starts. thats it go/nogo. most r/s`s power up the ign for 1-3 sec. first to pressurize the fuel system etc i dont think thats the problem.check the programing on your r/s. dont modify or remove factory components to make an aftermarket r/s work
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:33 PM   #14
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erik, just recapping the install manual, did you note pg 41-42 "troubleshooting"? check it out. yeah saw you already did that. i would try reprograming the tach.this will tell you if the tach sense is working.also trying the r/s with the key in the ign. and having the key in the box under the dash will cause grief as the imob. sys will see the value of both keys. remove one or the other for the test. i think the problem lies in the programming.
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Last edited by 4chucker; 12-05-2005 at 10:06 PM. Reason: adding info
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:09 PM   #15
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It's works now...

Thanks all of you!
I would have likey purchased the Commando FM-870 system if I hadn't allready commited to this and is now working fine. Thanks to 4Chucker and sending the link below, I scanned to the troubleshooting tips and found it to be a difference in the chip in the keys. So now after Circuit City switching the key out for using the main (black) key in the dash, it now works fine. They even reset it to RPM sensing so that the starter doesn't overrun and burn out.

In defense of Circuit City, they did a clean job. And I took it back to them because I don't know how to take the key out or where it is, to be truthfull. I will look into that later. However, I don't know if I can reprogram things like they can, since they used a special tool to do so.

I just started the car, this morning, after it's been sitting all night in the 12degree temps. And in one attempt it fired right up in less than a second!!

I'm aware there can be a number of things that can cause an auto to not start. It seems it can be grouped into two core things.

Something 1-electrical or 2-air/fuel related.
I thought it was electrical and that was my weak point in this realm.

1A: If it's electrical it could be the ECU or vehicle's computer system. It will prevent startup if it sees a error of sorts. Which indirectly is a cause from something else that prevents the car from starting. Sutch as..

B: It could be the keyless system or security sys. or both. ((this was my concern but the resolution was not the incompatibility between the factory keyless entry and the after market, remote start sys. It was the main key's propiatary signal that was needed for the new system.))

C: Or it could be ignition related. The coil pack or distributor needs repacement or tuning. If the car usually runs rough, then it could be tuning that needs to be adressed. Like a new battery. For instance- a battery needs CCA to be able to handel the draw it sees during high current demands such as startups and heavily used stereos, etc. Or it could be bad wires, plugs or having them regapped. Older vehicles use starter solinoids after the ing. coil and they can go bad, too. Etc..

Or
2A: fuel delivery issue via a clogged line, filter, bad or slowy dieing pump, clogged injector/s or bad pressure regulator. Water in the fuel from condensation (so keep your tank above half full in the winter) or if it's just bad gas and you ate too much. ... wait... I didn't say that. ...

B: even a clogged intake system or filter might have excessive air restriction. (for you heavy off roaders)

I know a lil about the mechanics of an auto now. But I'm still learning. But the electrical stuff is always a nighmare for me.

My final question is. Now that it works fine this way, I am stuck with useing the gray valet key for my manual operation needs. (since the main key is nestled inside the dash).
Is there a concern with the security for being able to start and operate the truck any time, in any way, with this key?
The only drawback now. I can not lock and unlock the glove box with my valet key. But I don't see that I will need this feature realy. That is the only other difference that I'm aware of in the keys (apart from the aformentioned). And because of this startup concern, I wonder if I will ever have startup problems with the valet key used now?
Maybe I can have a dummy key made for just that lock later, if I decide to use it. I know the originals cost almost $100.oo for a new key with it's chip.
ew
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just look at reply #5 for the functional link for the install manual.

Last edited by erik; 12-06-2005 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:16 PM   #16
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great to hear you figured it out!

so basically, you have to have that master key near the ignition (not actually in it) to make this work? but since you cannot lock the glove box w/ using the master key, how do you even lock it? Or are you saying that master key is in your glove box unlocked?

if having the master key near or around your ignition, can you find a spare master key on ebay, have it programmed, and then hide it behind a panel? or if that spare is not cut to your vehicle's ignition, then dont have it cut to fit so it wont work anyways.

bob
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik
My final question is. Now that it works fine this way, I am stuck with useing the gray valet key for my manual operation needs. (since the main key is nestled inside the dash).
I'm still wondering if this whole thing about using some sort of module that has to have your key inserted normal? It sounds like a real hack to me. Is it a Python thing?

There are plenty of modules available that bypass the immobilizer that do NOT require you to cough up a key.


btw.. the link to the PDF is no good. The URL got mashed when you pasted it into the message.
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Last edited by midiwall; 12-06-2005 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:30 PM   #18
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The main key is in the Immobilizer box. This box is a more permanent unit that allows the remote operation to work. The glove box is currently unlocked and all it has is useless stuff in it.
Just look at reply #5 for the functional link for the install manual.

I was told that some vehicles do not need this immobilizer and a physical key permanently in the dash for this to work. One reason is if it's an auto that doesn't have a key that is chipped to begin with. The other is that some domestics need BOTH keys to ONLY be present to program the system. Thereby allowing the sys. to be able to default to one key's signal, or the other, if the system is not seeing the original signal for some reason.
I'm not sure if it's a brand name difference in systems that makes one require it and the other not. I was just told that any basic remote start system operates basically the same and needs it for this type of configuration. This is all I could afford and didn't see the need to purchase a more complicated system that had a security function since the car already has something of the sort already integrated. And for that matter, I don't need to go more secure since I don't have an after market system in the car or anything a thief would really want in the truck.
Another reason why I didn't want a more elaborate system. If a professional thief wants your auto, it really doesn't matter what security sys. you have. If you are not near your car to protect it, then you are relying on the simple trust of where it's parked that it is not going to be tampered with.
I used to work for Circuit City and there was always employees that had their sys. stolen from their car while they were working. Unfortunately where and when you park it has a lot to do with your odds. As well as what you have visible and audible for the passerby to notice.
They say that the highest likelyhood for theft of your car is when It's parked at your house or work place. The reasoning is that the theif knows when and where you will be for him to know they can safely excape.
Same holds true for your house. The highest likelyhood for a theif to break into your house, is when you are at work. Because they know when you are leaving and arriving as well.
So for the holidays, please secure your house's belongings too. Like good locks and a fire safe for your highest valuables!

ew

Last edited by erik; 12-06-2005 at 01:55 PM. Reason: gramar
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Old 12-06-2005, 02:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik
The main key is in the Immobilizer box....

I was told that some vehicles do not need this immobilizer and a physical key permanently in the dash for this to work.
Right, I understand this. But know that there are immobilizer bypass units on the market that don't require you to cough up a key. For example:

http://www.commandoalarms.com/itm100040.htm
http://www.commandoalarms.com/itm100041.htm

My point is that with the way your system is now, you're either out a key or you're looking at buying a thrid key JUST to use with the alarm adding to the "cost" of the system.

Having the key as part of the immobilizer bypass doesn't buy you any additional protection, unless it's available for you to easily insert/remove the key. Even then, it defeats the purpose of the remote start since the remote won't work if the key's not in it.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:17 PM   #20
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mark i know this thread is pretty much over but, i dont think you understand this. the two units you found from commando work as follows: the first one is ( as it states) a GM only unit, the second one is for transponder type imob. it also requires you to put a valid key inside that little box. no matter what brand of r/s you have, if you need to bypass the transponder, you need this box and sacrifice a key. the only vehicles you dont need to sacrifice a key for is some new american vehicles where you can get a different box that interfaces with the data bus in the vehicle. just curious bob, if you read this, what did you have to do on your r/s? did you lose a key?
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:17 PM
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