Turbo Diesel Engines? - Page 2

blackspyder · 08-24-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 111db

Couple thoughts: You can't "convert" a gas engine to a diesel engine. Well, in theory you could I suppose, with a lot of money.

Actually you can convert 1 (and only one engine to my knowlege) from gas to diesel or from diesel to gas and thats a Chevy 4 bolt main 350. Swap the heads, cam, distrbutor (or injection pump) and intake and it'll use the other fuel (works best going diesel to gas.

Bang for Buck the Detriot 4 cyl diesel found in some Canadain Jeep Libertys is the best diesel for a toyota pickup. Small and powerful the detriot 40 series is a soild motor and should never be underestimated (as under horse powered as it may be its got great fuel economy and awesome amounts of torque).

do-able yes. cost effective no. your gonna dump $10k into putting a non toyota diesel in there (and I wouldnt run a toyota diesel if you've already got a 22re) too much cost not enough gain in fuel eco, or power.

BTW the Chevy V8 turbo diesel was the 6.2 and it was crap not worth fooling with (but I got a whole truck with one in it I'll sell)

DeathCougar · 08-24-2008, 07:46 PM

My boss has an olds 350 diesel punched to a 428 convterted to gas. Cost around $15,000 for everything he has done to it, but MAN what an engine!

FredTJ · 08-24-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

<SNIP>
What are you talking about being legal. There is nothing illegal about swapping a diesel engine, turbo diesel, or a turbo bio-diesel as long as the vehicle passes proper inspection and emissions. There are no Arizona Revised Statute Laws stating that it is illegal to swap engines in any vehicle, please share with us what your mean exactly. Thanks
<SNIP>

Quote:

Look at getting a 70's TOYOTA diesel. either from a Hilux, stout, BJ series LC.
No emissions have to be worried about, and your keeping with a TOYOTA brand name.

It's illegal FEDERALLY, and State laws mean nothing in regards to the Federal (EPA) laws. States can be more restrictive but because a State may be less restrictive than the Federal law doesn't relieve you of any Federal liability:

Quote:

State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.

Basically you can't swap any engine into any vehicle that didn't come with that engine for sale here in the US and you certainly can't swap any older engine in.

The outcome of any engine swap would be legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis.

Y'all would do well to check with the Federal EPA laws and regulations. The fines are pretty stiff and the EPA is cracking down some lately, especially with the imported engines.

Fred

Ryan · 08-25-2008, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredTJ

It's illegal FEDERALLY, and State laws mean nothing in regards to the Federal (EPA) laws. States can be more restrictive but because a State may be less restrictive than the Federal law doesn't relieve you of any Federal liability:

Basically you can't swap any engine into any vehicle that didn't come with that engine for sale here in the US and you certainly can't swap any older engine in.

The outcome of any engine swap would be legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis.

Y'all would do well to check with the Federal EPA laws and regulations. The fines are pretty stiff and the EPA is cracking down some lately, especially with the imported engines.

Fred

Fred,
Let me address a few things for you my friend. First of all I appreciate your input and enthusiasm on the legal issues. The first thing I would kindly like to address is that I am very involved in Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) activist movements since 1994. The second thing to consider is that I did a simple search for you and you will see that there are 166 article related to "engine swaps" into a vehicle, and not one will tell you it is Federally illegal. Third thing to know is that the EPA does not Govern Federal law, or Law Enforce the DOT regulations of vehicles, or the millions of vehicle owners that choose to do engine swaps. The EPA is simply an independent Agency that receives less than half of its funding from government sources to enforce keeping the environment clean. The EPA is great and is helping keep our environment clean and that is our sole job in protecting our precious resources. I can see someone swapping an engine that would create more negative impact on our environment becoming an EPA issue, but that would defeat my purpose in considering a bio-diesel swap. Fourth thing is that I have also spoke with a few representatives from the EPA to address this issue as I am starting a Bio-Diesel company, and not one person has ever heard of regulating the millions of engine swaps since the first day of manufactured vehicles in the USA. The last thing to consider is that this thread is not really about the laws although I greatly appreciate your input, it is about the recommendations of a bio-diesel engine, for not only better emissions but more power as well. Thank you again for you input but I would like you to know that this was all taken into consideration and I would not install a swap that would be more harsh on the environment. I have considered all the laws and I am happy to inform you vie PM of the laws you have probably heard about regarding using parts/engines on any vehicle that is not OEM. It simply has to be inspected to pass simple safety standards, DOT regulations, and of course pass EPA regulations such as a vehicle emissions inspection. I do it all the time in every engine swap I have ever done in any of my chevs and Hondas. Thank you again for your input but I would like to keep this thread on topic. Feel free to PM me and we can chat more about it.

Does anyone have any info on diesel (clean burning LOL) engines?

toyota-erik · 08-25-2008, 04:57 AM

I just happen to have a brand new 4bt laying around and have thought a lot about swaping it into a driver/trail rig, but havent found anyone that makes an adapter to the Yota drivetrain. Does anyone have any info on this?

saitotiktmdog · 08-25-2008, 06:22 AM

http://www.dieseldoctor.com/messageboard/data/474.html
http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/toyotadiesel/

I think there are some 2.8 liter diesels as well that go in the hilux overseas.

Check the above links. thread out on Diesel Doctor. I think your best bet is to find a toyota diesel engine from overseas. Toyota makes some killer trubo diesels. Problem is they dont import them.

If more power is all you want put a supra engine in it. That has been done before many times. Or get an LCE engine. Of course the LCE engine is a major coin.

Ryan · 08-25-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saitotiktmdog

http://www.dieseldoctor.com/messageboard/data/474.html
http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/toyotadiesel/

I think there are some 2.8 liter diesels as well that go in the hilux overseas.

Check the above links. thread out on Diesel Doctor. I think your best bet is to find a toyota diesel engine from overseas. Toyota makes some killer trubo diesels. Problem is they dont import them.

If more power is all you want put a supra engine in it. That has been done before many times. Or get an LCE engine. Of course the LCE engine is a major coin.

Well more power (torque) is really what I am looking for. Supra engines are great but I would really like to consider all turbo Diesel applications for towing ability, various turbo settings, and of course for burning $0.75 per gallon Bio-Diesel. It is great to hear such a diversity of options and that was really what I was hoping for when I started this thread. There are so many that insist I get Cummins, then there are the V8 guys that tell me to beef up the front end and go with a turbo diesel V8, and then there are all the great Toyota turbo diesels to consider as well. So I this is all a lot to absorb.

FredTJ · 08-25-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Fred,
Let me address a few things for you my friend. First of all I appreciate your input and enthusiasm on the legal issues. The first thing I would kindly like to address is that I am very involved in Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) activist movements since 1994. The second thing to consider is that I did a simple search for you and you will see that there are 166 article related to "engine swaps" into a vehicle, and not one will tell you it is Federally illegal. Third thing to know is that the EPA does not Govern Federal law, or Law Enforce the DOT regulations of vehicles, or the millions of vehicle owners that choose to do engine swaps. The EPA is simply an independent Agency that receives less than half of its funding from government sources to enforce keeping the environment clean. The EPA is great and is helping keep our environment clean and that is our sole job in protecting our precious resources. I can see someone swapping an engine that would create more negative impact on our environment becoming an EPA issue, but that would defeat my purpose in considering a bio-diesel swap. Fourth thing is that I have also spoke with a few representatives from the EPA to address this issue as I am starting a Bio-Diesel company, and not one person has ever heard of regulating the millions of engine swaps since the first day of manufactured vehicles in the USA. The last thing to consider is that this thread is not really about the laws although I greatly appreciate your input, it is about the recommendations of a bio-diesel engine, for not only better emissions but more power as well. Thank you again for you input but I would like you to know that this was all taken into consideration and I would not install a swap that would be more harsh on the environment. I have considered all the laws and I am happy to inform you vie PM of the laws you have probably heard about regarding using parts/engines on any vehicle that is not OEM. It simply has to be inspected to pass simple safety standards, DOT regulations, and of course pass EPA regulations such as a vehicle emissions inspection. I do it all the time in every engine swap I have ever done in any of my chevs and Hondas. Thank you again for your input but I would like to keep this thread on topic. Feel free to PM me and we can chat more about it.

Does anyone have any info on diesel (clean burning LOL) engines?

First off, my friend, a simple search yields a very useful document that condenses the basic EPA rules regarding engine swaps. I cut and pasted it below as it's in PDF format and perhaps some here don't have a PDF viewer available.

Quote:

UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460
ENGINE SWITCHING FACT SHEET
UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460
OFFICE OF AIR AND RADIATION

Pursuant to frequent requests for information received by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regarding the legality and effects of engine switching, this document will summarize federal law and policy pertaining to this matter, and will discuss other related issues.

A. Federal Law

The federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine prior to its sale and delivery to an ultimate purchaser and prohibits any person from knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery, and the causing thereof. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act prohibits any person from manufacturing or selling, or offering to sell, or installing, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or is being installed for such use. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section is $2,500.

EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA (Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.

A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved) by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use, in vehicles of the upcoming model year.

For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engne into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer.

For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to a certified configuration of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of the installed engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in a light-duty vehicle.

The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine.

Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a conversion could be done legally.

Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-built engines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in this country. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally. EPA has recently brought enforcement actions against certain parties who have violated the tampering prohibition by performing illegal engine switches.

It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle matches exactly to anv certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and engine designs of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally not possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation of another engine which was certified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that make and model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into a different certified configuration is likely to be very difficult, and the cost may prove prohibitive.

B. State Laws
Many states also have statutes or regulations prohibiting tampering in general. Most of these laws specifically prohibit tampering by individuals. A few specifically prohibit engine switching, using provisions similar to those stated in EPA's policy. To determine the state law in any given state, the state's Attorney General's office should be contacted. In addition, many states have state or local antitampering inspection programs which require a periodic inspection of vehicles in that area, to determine the integrity of emission control systems. Many programs have established policies for vehicles which have been engine switched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engine switched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does strongly recommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.

You'll find all the information in a nice condensed format here, written to that most of y'all can understand it.
I post this up here and continue here so that maybe the uninformed (and there seems to be a lot of 'em

), won't get "burned" of if they do, they can't claim stupid

Be aware that the Feds do watch these things.
Just in the last 3 months or so (literally) they took out a company here in the US that was selling CNG conversion kits for vehicles that came from Argentina.
This company had a small handful of "distributors" or "dealers" selling these also.
The Feds closed this company, closed the "dealers" and recalled all the units that had been sold here.
The website MyCNGKit.com is now redirected to the Argentina company.
A search on the web will fill in the details for those who are interested.
I've been watching this go down for about a year now, as at least one of the "dealers", on their website, was "thumping their chest" claiming that one doesn't need any stink'n EPA certification to sell these as long as you don't live in California.

This has also happened, at least once that I know of, in the last year, to a company here selling E85 conversion kits from Brazil.

Anyone can do as they wish, of course, but this is suppose to be the forum of "no mis-information" and by claiming that some of these engine swaps are legal because the State that one lives in my not care is simply not true.

I've always been amazed at the number of people who seem to have no clue about these rules/regs, when they are readily available online and are pretty clear.

There is a shop here, that I have first hand knowledge of, and know the owner well, that got busted a few years back for selling cats (Tiger Cat) that he made for street rods (he's an ex drag racer himself).
The EPA paid him a visit and wanted to see his EPA certification for each vehicle type that he was installing the cats on.
Needless to say, he's not making and selling them anymore.

Fred

DeathCougar · 08-25-2008, 08:47 PM

Ah not this again......

BTW, selling used cats for use in motor vehicles is Illegal in ANY state. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Thats why when you all get your cats cut off your trucks, you cannot call us at the wrecking yard and purchase a replacement. It's a screwed up law that allows thieves to steal them and sell them willy nilly for scrap, but no one can fix it and there is really no legal recourse.

FredTJ · 08-25-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathCougar

Ah not this again......

BTW, selling used cats for use in motor vehicles is Illegal in ANY state. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Thats why when you all get your cats cut off your trucks, you cannot call us at the wrecking yard and purchase a replacement. It's a screwed up law that allows thieves to steal them and sell them willy nilly for scrap, but no one can fix it and there is really no legal recourse.

What in the world are you talking about "ah not this again" ???
I said nothing about selling used cats.

Fred

DeathCougar · 08-25-2008, 09:22 PM

Ah this again you arguing about EPA regulations and such. This arguement has been had before, it was proven that swaps are legal, and here we are arguing again.

Do you work for the EPA or something? Why do you care SOOO much about engine swaps?

Ryan · 08-26-2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathCougar

Ah not this again......

BTW, selling used cats for use in motor vehicles is Illegal in ANY state. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Thats why when you all get your cats cut off your trucks, you cannot call us at the wrecking yard and purchase a replacement. It's a screwed up law that allows thieves to steal them and sell them willy nilly for scrap, but no one can fix it and there is really no legal recourse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathCougar

Ah this again you arguing about EPA regulations and such. This arguement has been had before, it was proven that swaps are legal, and here we are arguing again.

Do you work for the EPA or something? Why do you care SOOO much about engine swaps?

I agree, so lets keep it on topic please. Fred, as I mentioned, I appreciate your enthusiasm and your input, however I did already mention to you 8 posts ago to please PM me and we can chat about this. You are throwing the topic and purpose of my thread way off. I do not want to turn this into a political issues that has already been resolved. If you personally have issues with the EPA call them or PM us and we are happy to make things clear for you. In the mean time if you have something positive to offer in regards to the topic of choosing which Turbo Diesel, I am going to swap, then your input on that topic would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Fred

CyMoN · 08-26-2008, 01:27 AM

if you wanted to be real slick try to find a 4 cylinder military multi fuel generator motor and install that into your truck,
some of the duce and a half's are multi fuel.
you can run them on gas, propane, diesel, kerosene and I think veggie oil.

I think they also can run on a gas&oil and oil&kerosene mixtures they would smoke a lot but they would run.

Belize Off Road Team · 08-26-2008, 06:45 AM

This is why i recommend getting an old TOYOTA diesel. because it has to be 25 years or older right, so by buying a 1970's toyota diesel engine you are meeting the USA fed. regulations.

saitotiktmdog · 08-26-2008, 07:38 AM

I recommend the toyota engines for sure. Not overkill and its still toyota.

08-25-2008, 04:57 AM	#30 (permalink)
toyota-erik Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: M/V Midland & Biwabik MN Posts: 165	I just happen to have a brand new 4bt laying around and have thought a lot about swaping it into a driver/trail rig, but havent found anyone that makes an adapter to the Yota drivetrain. Does anyone have any info on this? __________________ 81 Toyota P/U, 22R with GotPropane kit, wheelbase stretched 5", bobbed box, narrowed tube frame from cab back, full exo, tube doors, Warn 9000i, 36" IROKs,TR bead locks, 4 link front, 3 link rear, Fox 2.0 16" all around. Rear axle is shaved, trussed, V6 3rd, CroMo axles, 4.88, full spool, and disc brakes. Front axle is trussed, HP 3rd, 4.88, 30spline Longfields, and a lunchbox locker. Full hydro Howe desert series race pump(reworked by PSC), CroMo steering arms, 4.7:1 t-case

08-25-2008, 06:22 AM	#31 (permalink)
saitotiktmdog Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 450	http://www.dieseldoctor.com/messageboard/data/474.html http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/toyotadiesel/ I think there are some 2.8 liter diesels as well that go in the hilux overseas. Check the above links. thread out on Diesel Doctor. I think your best bet is to find a toyota diesel engine from overseas. Toyota makes some killer trubo diesels. Problem is they dont import them. If more power is all you want put a supra engine in it. That has been done before many times. Or get an LCE engine. Of course the LCE engine is a major coin. __________________ 1994 toyota 4x4. 22re turbo (sds em4, intercooler, steedspeed manifold, garrett t3) 4 inch procomp stage two lift. ARB bull bar and warn winch, Quick lock rear, tru trac front 31x10.50 firestone destination MT, 5.29 gears Planned mods. , T-case gears, ditch ifs Beware the groove Last edited by saitotiktmdog : 08-25-2008 at 06:23 AM.

08-26-2008, 01:27 AM	#38 (permalink)
CyMoN Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: INDIANA Posts: 2,041	if you wanted to be real slick try to find a 4 cylinder military multi fuel generator motor and install that into your truck, some of the duce and a half's are multi fuel. you can run them on gas, propane, diesel, kerosene and I think veggie oil. I think they also can run on a gas&oil and oil&kerosene mixtures they would smoke a lot but they would run. __________________ my rigs 89 4runner 1989 4runner v6 5 speed everything factory +4susplift running bfg 31s and a aux gas tank and more aux lights than needed 86 pickup 1986 stock pickup 22r 31.10 BFG ATs flatbed a sad day for the 4runner "One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life."

08-26-2008, 06:45 AM	#39 (permalink)
Belize Off Road Team Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Corozal Town, Belize Posts: 2,391	This is why i recommend getting an old TOYOTA diesel. because it has to be 25 years or older right, so by buying a 1970's toyota diesel engine you are meeting the USA fed. regulations. __________________ -Phyl 1991 Hilux Surf SSR-G Petrol 3.0L V6 193,000kms l 3.4L V6 264,000kms to be rebuilt then installed! l Rancho RS5000 l 31"x10.50"xR15 Pro Comp Xterrain l K&N Drop in filter l PP 1" Lift Coil Springs l TRD shift knob l Lv. 3 First Aid Kit l White Gauges & Temp Controls l LED conversion l 80/100W Hella H4 l Hella Black Magic l 1st Gen Roll Bar Mod l FT/RR Diff. Breathers l Smittybilt XRC8 Winch l TOYOTA TOUR 2008 トヨタ\|NEVER QUIT

08-26-2008, 07:38 AM	#40 (permalink)
saitotiktmdog Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 450	I recommend the toyota engines for sure. Not overkill and its still toyota. __________________ 1994 toyota 4x4. 22re turbo (sds em4, intercooler, steedspeed manifold, garrett t3) 4 inch procomp stage two lift. ARB bull bar and warn winch, Quick lock rear, tru trac front 31x10.50 firestone destination MT, 5.29 gears Planned mods. , T-case gears, ditch ifs Beware the groove