Alignment Issues? Can't get your rig aligned after a lift? Info... - Page 2

OutdoorLiving · 05-19-2006, 05:47 PM

I've got some SERIOUS negative camber on my left-front tire, while the right-front is almost dead center. Does this indicate that there is a problem, or could it have been 'tuned' like this to correct a problem?

Or, on second inspection, it wasn't as severe as I thought.

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bamachem · 05-20-2006, 04:01 AM

camber? dead center? so the left front tire leans in at the top and the right front is fine?

a decent alignment takes over an hour if the rig is out of spec at all. you MUST get the caster set, then camber, then caster again, then camber again, then toe, then caster, then camber, then toe - at least two full iterations. it's not "easy" with the cams on the front, so most shops just hit the camber and toe - that's a quick and easy job. my local shop that's always done me right tried to tell me the other day that they weren't sure that it had adjustable caster and that i "may have something bent or broken from taking it offroad"...

i quickly set them straight by telling them how i wanted them to first adjust my caster with the front and rear cams, then to move both of them at the same time to correct camber, then go thru the two iterations. they didn't say anything else and just went to work with two techs on it and finished it in about an hour and 15 minutes. i also mentioned that i wanted 150ft-# on the cam lock-down bolts.

mine used to bump out of alignment until i discovered that the passenger rear and driver fronts had to be torqued super-tight. now it lasts for several trips, and if it does get out of spec, it's not by much.

Bobakazi · 05-21-2006, 11:18 AM

Hey Bamachem, (or anyone that knows and has the time) any way you could post up a few pics on exactly where these bolts are that need to be extra tightened? I had an alignment done a few weeks back, and I am going on a serious wheeling trip this weekend. Much appreciated!!!

amorphous · 05-24-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamachem

.... i also mentioned that i wanted 150ft-# on the cam lock-down bolts.

mine used to bump out of alignment until i discovered that the passenger rear and driver fronts had to be torqued super-tight. now it lasts for several trips, and if it does get out of spec, it's not by much.

ah ha! that's gotta be it re :alignment issue after wheeling.: torque spec @ 150 lbs. Hell, check that after I get home!

thanx andy!

-aaron

bamachem · 05-24-2006, 10:53 AM

i don't know what the spec is. the shops put maybe 50 ft-# on them. i put them as tight as i feel safe torquing them to w/ a 18" bar (about ~150 ft-#) and i haven't had any issues w/ them backing off or damage to the threads.

**waskillywabbit** · 05-24-2006, 10:54 AM

Why not check the FSM and find out and get a torque wrench?

Slacker.

bamachem · 05-24-2006, 11:06 AM

why don't you give me the $ to get an FSM and i will...

or better yet, why don't you call a dealer and ask a service writer (like i did) and see what their answer is... "well, we can't tell you that right now over the phone, but if you'll bring it in, we'll take care of that alignment issue for ya"...

***midiwall*** · 05-24-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamachem

why don't you give me the $ to get an FSM and i will...

dood...

http://aarc.epnet.com/application/9316/9316.htm

96ftlbs on the cams.

**waskillywabbit** · 05-24-2006, 11:22 AM

amorphous · 05-24-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamachem

or better yet, why don't you call a dealer and ask a service writer (like i did) and see what their answer is... "well, we can't tell you that right now over the phone, but if you'll bring it in, we'll take care of that alignment issue for ya"...

that's classic!

this thread is seriously cool - i've been "off" from wheeling due to front end issues - namely the steering rack. That should be done next week -as well as having my cams shims fixed and get my junk running straight.

aaron

MTL_4runner · 09-20-2006, 10:15 AM

I was going to start a new thread but this one seems like a good one to add to. Well I went to the Toyota dealer yesterday to get an alignment because I was beginning to see some feathering on my front tires (indicating to me it was likely out of alignment). So I went in and figured Toyota would do a good job since after all this was a dealer. When I dropped off my truck at the beginning of the day I specifically asked for a printout of the alignment machine and told them I wanted 0 camber and between 0-1 deg of positive toe. I went to pick up my truck and well, well, well.....wouldn't you know it "yeah we just adjusted the toe for you; it was at 7 deg, now you're at 2 deg positive". So I asked to see the printout and I get "sorry you need to ask for a printout when you drop it off". Now I am starting to get pissed! Then he starts to go into all the stuff my vehicle needs and I told him to stop right there, I don't even want to hear about it.....I know exactly what my vehicle needs thank you and I'll tell you what I want you to fix.

To make a long story short I honestly think you could align your own truck better in your own garage as long as it is reasonably level ground. Toe can be done fairly easily at home.

First make sure the tires are pointed striaght and the steering wheel is centered as best you can. To check toe you can just use two 4ft aluminum levels (the composite levels have some give to them......hold the levels against each other to make sure they are true) with some spacer blocks to allow the levels to carry the same angle as the wheel (can be square metal tube or even 2x4 as long as it is dimensionally consistent.....make sure this doesn't sit on a bent or damaged part of the wheel's rim either). The standoff piece is just there to allow you to sit the level parallel to the rim without touching the tire (otherwise the tire sticks out farther than the rim and gets in the way). This method is very similar to the one in the toyota truck alignment link: http://www.automedia.com/DIY/Alignment/ccr20021201ay/1 but you don't need to get any white spraypaint on your tires to do it (I's also not sure the toe might not change very slightly from when the wheel is loaded or unloaded as they do in the writeup!?.....in any case the way I did it, it was loaded). Then secure the setup to each wheel in some way (I used ratchet straps around the wheel itself.....only do it tight enough to secure the levels true with the wheel's rim). It is important to make sure the levels are in fact level horizontally, that the levels midpoint (ie 2ft on a 4 ft level) is exactly on line with the center of the tire horizontally and that they also pass directly through the center of the tire vertically.

Now measure the distance between the levels on each wheel, both behind and in front of the wheels. The average of the two numbers will be your 0 degree toe dimension. If the number in front of the wheels is less than the distance in the back, then you have positive toe.....vice versa, negative toe. To find out the degrees, you just use simple trig (the old SOH, CAH, TOA stuff).

We know Tan (angle) = (toe measurement- zero toe measurement) / (distance to center of the wheel.....24" in our case)

So to get the angle you just solve the formula.....you can also find what the distance should be at the correct toe and this is how you can set your own toe at home.

You can also at least measure degrees of camber although it's alot harder to set at home, you'll know if you need to take it to a shop or not for adjustment. Again use the same standoff piece you used with the levels and either an angle guage or you can use a plumb bob and some trig again to figure it out. I just used a big framing square held against a piece of 2x4 cut to fit against the edge of the rim (I mic'd it with calipers and it was very consistent dimensionally). The truck was pretty near dead nuts on zero camber for mine but if your out more than 2 degrees, you'll see it pretty easily.

Here is another good backyard alignment link:
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/BackyardAlignment.html

I know there are a few others on 4x4wire as well:
http://yotatech.com/showpost.php?p=994023&postcount=38

......man those darn dealers make me mad.

j-man · 05-15-2007, 09:09 AM

thx again for this write up and everyone elses posts / info. I wish i would have known about yotatech a few years ago, could have made my life easier. Bump for an informative thread. thx guyes.

Hilux Surf Limited · 08-08-2007, 04:17 PM

Best alignment thread bump.

Spence1016 · 10-10-2007, 04:09 PM

awesome thread. when i was at the stealership getting my oil changed today they tried to tell me i needed to get my front and rear aligned lol

johnw999 · 01-14-2008, 06:46 PM

Toytec website recommends setting the camber to zero and the toe .04 degrees. Anyone have an opinion on that? I'm about to install the tundra/OME lift.

hross14 · 02-22-2008, 12:49 PM

This was a great thread--i was bashing my head thinking why cant the alignment guys get it right--well Today i took it to them and after putting on new tierod ends and replacing the upper A-arm bushings (lowers are a pain to get past the PS rack)--they still couldnt get it aligned--pulls crazy to the right and thy couldnt get the caster to get within spec. I am going to have to take it back.......

Crap--i am getting so fed up with people not knowing how to do something but saying they do.....BS

darksoldier313 · 01-12-2009, 08:32 PM

this might give u an idea of general specs and that not only do u change angles by tightening them that tight but u r over tightening them however i do agree with u about alot of techs half assing jobs i think the problem is no one takes pride in their work ne more ne way a few specs just for some ref and alot of problems come when u change ride height and u run out of adjustment

Ft. Lbs. (N.m)

Land Cruiser
Front Adjuster Cam Nuts 72 (98)
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55)
Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103)
Sienna
Lower Strut Mounting Bolts 155 (210)
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 55 (75)
Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103)
RAV4
Rear Adjuster Cam Nuts 83 (113)
Lower Strut Mounting Bolts 117 (158)
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (56)
Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103)
Tacoma
2WD
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55)
Upper Control Arm Bolts 96 (130)
Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103)
4WD
Front Suspension Adjuster Cams 96 (130)
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55)
Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103)
Tundra
Front Suspension Adjuster Cams 96 (130)
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55)
Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103)
4Runner
Front Suspension Adjuster Cams 96 (130)
Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55)
Wheel Lug Nuts 81 (110)

9o7yota · 09-08-2009, 01:17 AM

for what its worth.. i lifted my IFS 4 inches and i had a problem getting the alignment straight... i had to cut my Tie rod engs like a half in or more off each end... could be a common prob..i didnt read the solution u posted first but .... yeah...

05-20-2006, 04:01 AM	#27 (permalink)
bamachem Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 0	camber? dead center? so the left front tire leans in at the top and the right front is fine? a decent alignment takes over an hour if the rig is out of spec at all. you MUST get the caster set, then camber, then caster again, then camber again, then toe, then caster, then camber, then toe - at least two full iterations. it's not "easy" with the cams on the front, so most shops just hit the camber and toe - that's a quick and easy job. my local shop that's always done me right tried to tell me the other day that they weren't sure that it had adjustable caster and that i "may have something bent or broken from taking it offroad"... i quickly set them straight by telling them how i wanted them to first adjust my caster with the front and rear cams, then to move both of them at the same time to correct camber, then go thru the two iterations. they didn't say anything else and just went to work with two techs on it and finished it in about an hour and 15 minutes. i also mentioned that i wanted 150ft-# on the cam lock-down bolts. mine used to bump out of alignment until i discovered that the passenger rear and driver fronts had to be torqued super-tight. now it lasts for several trips, and if it does get out of spec, it's not by much. Last edited by bamachem; 05-20-2006 at 04:03 AM.

05-21-2006, 11:18 AM	#28 (permalink)
Bobakazi Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 379	Hey Bamachem, (or anyone that knows and has the time) any way you could post up a few pics on exactly where these bolts are that need to be extra tightened? I had an alignment done a few weeks back, and I am going on a serious wheeling trip this weekend. Much appreciated!!! __________________ '90 Extra cab V6 4x4 PU 5.29 gears. Detroit locker front, Detroit Truetrac rear. 35" BFG mudders. Trailmaster 4" susp, 3" body lifts. Add-a-leaf. K+N intake, 2.5" exhaust with Flowmaster 40 and a cat I got off an Evo VIII.

05-24-2006, 10:54 AM	#31 (permalink)
waskillywabbit Super Moderator-Sponsoring Member Staff Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tuscaloosa, AL Posts: 14,559	Why not check the FSM and find out and get a torque wrench? Slacker. __________________ WabFab Off-Road, LLC MySpace Twitter Facebook 7th Annual South East 4Runner Jamboree, 2010 The toughest part of a Jeep is the chick driving it. WabFab Off-Road 4th Anniversary Sale

05-24-2006, 11:22 AM	#34 (permalink)
waskillywabbit Super Moderator-Sponsoring Member Staff Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tuscaloosa, AL Posts: 14,559	__________________ WabFab Off-Road, LLC MySpace Twitter Facebook 7th Annual South East 4Runner Jamboree, 2010 The toughest part of a Jeep is the chick driving it. WabFab Off-Road 4th Anniversary Sale

09-20-2006, 10:15 AM	#36 (permalink)
MTL_4runner Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 8,807	I was going to start a new thread but this one seems like a good one to add to. Well I went to the Toyota dealer yesterday to get an alignment because I was beginning to see some feathering on my front tires (indicating to me it was likely out of alignment). So I went in and figured Toyota would do a good job since after all this was a dealer. When I dropped off my truck at the beginning of the day I specifically asked for a printout of the alignment machine and told them I wanted 0 camber and between 0-1 deg of positive toe. I went to pick up my truck and well, well, well.....wouldn't you know it "yeah we just adjusted the toe for you; it was at 7 deg, now you're at 2 deg positive". So I asked to see the printout and I get "sorry you need to ask for a printout when you drop it off". Now I am starting to get pissed! Then he starts to go into all the stuff my vehicle needs and I told him to stop right there, I don't even want to hear about it.....I know exactly what my vehicle needs thank you and I'll tell you what I want you to fix. To make a long story short I honestly think you could align your own truck better in your own garage as long as it is reasonably level ground. Toe can be done fairly easily at home. First make sure the tires are pointed striaght and the steering wheel is centered as best you can. To check toe you can just use two 4ft aluminum levels (the composite levels have some give to them......hold the levels against each other to make sure they are true) with some spacer blocks to allow the levels to carry the same angle as the wheel (can be square metal tube or even 2x4 as long as it is dimensionally consistent.....make sure this doesn't sit on a bent or damaged part of the wheel's rim either). The standoff piece is just there to allow you to sit the level parallel to the rim without touching the tire (otherwise the tire sticks out farther than the rim and gets in the way). This method is very similar to the one in the toyota truck alignment link: http://www.automedia.com/DIY/Alignment/ccr20021201ay/1 but you don't need to get any white spraypaint on your tires to do it (I's also not sure the toe might not change very slightly from when the wheel is loaded or unloaded as they do in the writeup!?.....in any case the way I did it, it was loaded). Then secure the setup to each wheel in some way (I used ratchet straps around the wheel itself.....only do it tight enough to secure the levels true with the wheel's rim). It is important to make sure the levels are in fact level horizontally, that the levels midpoint (ie 2ft on a 4 ft level) is exactly on line with the center of the tire horizontally and that they also pass directly through the center of the tire vertically. Now measure the distance between the levels on each wheel, both behind and in front of the wheels. The average of the two numbers will be your 0 degree toe dimension. If the number in front of the wheels is less than the distance in the back, then you have positive toe.....vice versa, negative toe. To find out the degrees, you just use simple trig (the old SOH, CAH, TOA stuff). We know Tan (angle) = (toe measurement- zero toe measurement) / (distance to center of the wheel.....24" in our case) So to get the angle you just solve the formula.....you can also find what the distance should be at the correct toe and this is how you can set your own toe at home. You can also at least measure degrees of camber although it's alot harder to set at home, you'll know if you need to take it to a shop or not for adjustment. Again use the same standoff piece you used with the levels and either an angle guage or you can use a plumb bob and some trig again to figure it out. I just used a big framing square held against a piece of 2x4 cut to fit against the edge of the rim (I mic'd it with calipers and it was very consistent dimensionally). The truck was pretty near dead nuts on zero camber for mine but if your out more than 2 degrees, you'll see it pretty easily. Here is another good backyard alignment link: http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/BackyardAlignment.html I know there are a few others on 4x4wire as well: http://yotatech.com/showpost.php?p=994023&postcount=38 ......man those darn dealers make me mad. __________________ - Jamie 1996 4Runner SR5 4X4 Auto Deckplate Mod, Hayden Tranny Cooler, Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift Best OBD II scan tool I have used!. .....and I am AMERICAN! Last edited by MTL_4runner; 09-21-2006 at 05:51 AM.

05-24-2006, 10:53 AM	#30 (permalink)
bamachem Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 0	i don't know what the spec is. the shops put maybe 50 ft-# on them. i put them as tight as i feel safe torquing them to w/ a 18" bar (about ~150 ft-#) and i haven't had any issues w/ them backing off or damage to the threads.

05-24-2006, 11:06 AM	#32 (permalink)
bamachem Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 0	why don't you give me the $ to get an FSM and i will... or better yet, why don't you call a dealer and ask a service writer (like i did) and see what their answer is... "well, we can't tell you that right now over the phone, but if you'll bring it in, we'll take care of that alignment issue for ya"...

05-15-2007, 09:09 AM	#37 (permalink)
j-man Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Santa Monica, Ca Posts: 207	thx again for this write up and everyone elses posts / info. I wish i would have known about yotatech a few years ago, could have made my life easier. Bump for an informative thread. thx guyes. __________________ 2000 4Runner v6 sr5 4x4 5spd: Turbo'ed 99 4Runner v6 Sr5 4x4 5spd: Saw's / OME combo TrueTrac rear 98 4Runner V6 Sr5 4x4 5spd E-locker: Saws / OME combo... EEZI AWN Roof Tent 1.4m 97 4Runner V6 Sr5 4x4 Auto: Saws / OME combo TrueTrac rear 2003 Landcruiser 285 BFG At's and outback roofrack My Baja Trailer Build: http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=179520 http://community.webshots.com/user/bajaroadtrain

08-08-2007, 04:17 PM	#38 (permalink)
Hilux Surf Limited Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kanagawa, Japan Posts: 50	Best alignment thread bump.

10-10-2007, 04:09 PM	#39 (permalink)
Spence1016 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ft.Lauderdale, FL Posts: 351	awesome thread. when i was at the stealership getting my oil changed today they tried to tell me i needed to get my front and rear aligned lol

01-14-2008, 06:46 PM	#40 (permalink)
johnw999 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 112	Toytec website recommends setting the camber to zero and the toe .04 degrees. Anyone have an opinion on that? I'm about to install the tundra/OME lift.

02-22-2008, 12:49 PM	#41 (permalink)
hross14 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 1,170	This was a great thread--i was bashing my head thinking why cant the alignment guys get it right--well Today i took it to them and after putting on new tierod ends and replacing the upper A-arm bushings (lowers are a pain to get past the PS rack)--they still couldnt get it aligned--pulls crazy to the right and thy couldnt get the caster to get within spec. I am going to have to take it back....... Crap--i am getting so fed up with people not knowing how to do something but saying they do.....BS __________________ Yes, I said "country." America really is a nation, but you couldn't convince those who lead the Democratic and Republican Parties of that. Both parties now see America as nothing more than an economy, a marketplace, and not a sovereign nation. They don't see you and me as citizens of this great nation; they see us as units of labor, consumers and taxpayers. Yes, I am here to collect my 238$ worth of stock from AIG. "What do you mean a free market economy doesnt apply to the rich?"

01-12-2009, 08:32 PM	#42 (permalink)
darksoldier313 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: quincy illinoise Posts: 164	this might give u an idea of general specs and that not only do u change angles by tightening them that tight but u r over tightening them however i do agree with u about alot of techs half assing jobs i think the problem is no one takes pride in their work ne more ne way a few specs just for some ref and alot of problems come when u change ride height and u run out of adjustment Ft. Lbs. (N.m) Land Cruiser Front Adjuster Cam Nuts 72 (98) Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55) Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103) Sienna Lower Strut Mounting Bolts 155 (210) Tie Rod Lock Nuts 55 (75) Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103) RAV4 Rear Adjuster Cam Nuts 83 (113) Lower Strut Mounting Bolts 117 (158) Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (56) Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103) Tacoma 2WD Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55) Upper Control Arm Bolts 96 (130) Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103) 4WD Front Suspension Adjuster Cams 96 (130) Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55) Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103) Tundra Front Suspension Adjuster Cams 96 (130) Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55) Wheel Lug Nuts 76 (103) 4Runner Front Suspension Adjuster Cams 96 (130) Tie Rod Lock Nuts 41 (55) Wheel Lug Nuts 81 (110) Last edited by darksoldier313; 01-12-2009 at 08:34 PM.

09-08-2009, 01:17 AM	#43 (permalink)
9o7yota Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 106	for what its worth.. i lifted my IFS 4 inches and i had a problem getting the alignment straight... i had to cut my Tie rod engs like a half in or more off each end... could be a common prob..i didnt read the solution u posted first but .... yeah... __________________ 1990 Std Cab-- 22re -- 4x4 -- 5spd Manual -- IFS -- 4-inch Trailmaster Suspension Lift -- 33x10x15 Buckshot Mudders(weak) -- Black/Real Fire paint -- Custom Dual-pipe Exhaust(no mufflers) -- 15% Tint -- Rockford Fosgate 10" Sub -- Custom 6inch Pio' Door Speakers -- Fosgate 4inch Dash Speakers -- Bomz Black/Gray Racing Seats -- Chrome Single Bar Roll Bar -- 2 LightForce Off-Road Lights(not currently attached) -- "Smoke" Tail Lights Status: Engine rebuild Mob it till it breaks...AK

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