Newbie Modification Information

AxleIke · 07-29-2007, 05:25 PM

After seeing a great many threads on here, I've decided to pitch in a thread that will hopefully help some of you newer guys out when you first start modifying your trucks.

Hopefully it will help you keep from making the same mistakes I did.

First of all, this is a post to try to help guys who want to modify their truck?s off-road performance, not so much for street cool looks. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with looking good, but looking good doesn't equal trail capability.

So, you've bought a 4x4 and you?d like to get some more off-road performance out of it. Awesome. Probably, you are thinking about a lift, right? Please forget about it.

Here is a saying that has been around the net for quite a while: What is cool on the internet or on the street is seldom what is cool on the trail.

The order of importance for different modifications on your truck is as follows.

1. Drivetrain
2. Armor
3. Tires
4. Suspension

Yes, suspension is the least important part of a truck. Why? Because they all accomplish the same thing, which is moving your tires over the terrain. They will get you about as far down the trail as stock. Granted, an otherwise stock truck that has been solid axle swapped with good flex will go farther than a stock IFS truck, but not a ton.

Sooooo, what I?m getting at here is hardware. Hardware makes your truck go. If you are looking to spend some money on a truck, your first consideration should be lockers. Perhaps you can only afford one for the rear, that is fine, get it. Gears are usually recommended when installing lockers, but it isn?t mandatory. If you decide to gear lower in the future, it will cost you an extra 200 for installation that you won?t have to pay if you have them done first off. But that is personal choice. It really depends on what size tire you want to run.

Gears are the next important step, as lower gearing means slower going on the trail. This gives you better control, better torque, and saves clutches. It also involves less ?slamming? up stuff by having to give the truck a lot of skinny pedal. This involves usually two important parts of the vehicle. Differential gearing involves replacing your ring and pinion gears in the differential itself, and is usually a balance of your on road performance with bigger tires. Larger tires will slow a truck down considerably. Regearing the diffs will allow you to keep a more stock feel while running a larger tire. The second step is regearing and/or doubling the transfer case. This provides a much greater ability to crawl or go slow on the trail. For example, a stock drive train (stock transfer case with a reduction of 2.28:1, manual transmission with a 3.95:1 first gear ration, and stock diff gears of 4.1:1) has a crawl ratio of 37:1. With doubled cases and gearing, trucks can get down to 225:1. It is a big difference. Again, benefits are control and less damage by being able to keep the speed down.

Next is armor. Usually, it is recommended that this be done fairly quickly after lockers and gears are installed, as increasing the difficulty of the trails you can drive up will increase the likelihood of body damage. Sliders, bumpers, and underbelly skid plates are all highly recommended. Get what fits your budget, but remember, with all things, you get what you pay for.

Tires are the next thing to look to. There are many threads about brands, sizes, etc. You can choose what you like best. Really, it?s about traction here. What type of wheeling do you see the most? Mud, sand, rocks? I recommend getting the largest size you can get with none, or minor rubbing. Minor rubbing usually occurs on the pinch welds in the fender, and can be easily pounded flat to gain the necessary clearance to eliminate rubbing, and does not affect the cosmetic look of the truck. Tires are the only real way to get ground clearance under your differentials. Lift will leave the axles in the same place as they were. Tires will get your diffs over rocks. In addition, it is important to get a tire that is going to take some abuse. Again, I refer you to the search function on that, so you can make your own decision on brand and genre of tire, as I?m as biased as the rest when it comes to tire choice.

Lastly, look to the suspension.

Here is the deal. If you have put in gearing, lockers, armor, and good tires on a truck, you will be able to drive most of the trails in your area, especially if you?ve ponied up for two lockers. If you have IFS, a suspension lift will get you bigger tires if you really start working your fenders with a sawzall and hammer, and a body lift will get you tires without the need for fender modification, but you?ll still have the crappy flex, and the other issues associated with IFS. Believe it or not, but IFS, especially the early (86-95) IFS, works best stock. No lift, no nothing. In fact, early IFS usually starts to puke steering parts with any sort of lift that changes the steering angles.

In invite you to look up TC, who is a member here. He has a 2nd gen 4runner, and simply has two ARB lockers, and a bunch of armor. No lift, and he runs a 33x1050 tire on it. Minor pinch weld modification and he runs these tires with little or no rubbing. With this set up, he is able to tackle the most difficult trails Colorado has to offer. Check out some of his videos. Now, TC is an AMAZING driver, but even a novice would be able to tackle most trails with the same set up.

If this has all been a jumble of words to you, here are the take home points.

If all you are looking for is to be able to go out and wheel trails with confidence and get up harder obstacles, DO NOT look to your suspension to help you there. Look to the stuff you can?t see.

If you want to look cool driving around town, and aren?t really concerned about getting any farther up the trail than you did before, you just want to look cool while doing it, then look to a lift and monster tires.

Questions are appreciated, post if you have em. Good luck with your builds.

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tc · 07-29-2007, 08:52 PM

Personally, I would do sliders/skids before gears lockers, but AxleIke's thought process is dead on.

Here's what lockers will do for you - no way you make this obstacle with open diffs.

YouTube Video

truckmike26 · 08-07-2007, 06:10 PM

Wow. Creepy I read this post now seeing as I was thinking about this just yesterday. Why? Because I simply crunched all the numbers and lift, SAS or IFS brackets, equates to evaporating my money quickly -- lift itself, in some cases bigger rims, gears and installation parts, driveshafts, brake lines, increased wear on everything and likelyhood of busting something , even more crummy fuel mileage, poorer resale value, can't get into some parking complexes (big city dweller, here) and then more engine mods to get back the power loss from all the extra drag. Fergetit.

For my case, factory 31" tires is already a great size for this size of truck, and keeping them, I get factory reliablity, fit, the parts store has my service parts, speedo, ECM/ABS lights work and don't light up (get to keep my factory 4.88 gears that are paid for!), on and on.

Lockers, aggressive 31" mud tires, proper underbelly/chassis/body reinforcement should go pretty far for the terrain here in S. Ontario. Anyone got a 4 cyl. non ADD front axle and hubs for sale? Bonus if you're in Ontario.

blu82project · 08-16-2007, 07:06 AM

Man, you really got me thing now. After crunching numbers, I was getting depressed. What would you suggest for an 82 solid axle. The 5.29 gears and lockers aside, how do I cram those 33's in there. If I could get by with that, I could do my power steering upgrade too. Do you think 2" shackles and rebuilt hangers would get me there? Are am I thinking too elaborate again. I like simplicity. Thanks for this write up. You got my head cleared of all the "I need this to go far".
Thanks,
Tim

AxleIke · 08-16-2007, 08:17 AM

That idea would work for the rear. However, you should get some advice from someone who knows SA trucks better than I for the front. If you start messing with longer shackles, I believe you will mess with caster angle, which can affect your steering and on road handling.

I suggest a PM to 4Crawler on the board here for starters. He is an amazing resource, and should be able to handle all of your questions.

Secondly, unless you plan on going to 35's or bigger someday, 5.29 may be overkill for 33's. Unless you have an Auto tranny, in which case that would be a good bet.

blu82project · 08-16-2007, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxleIke

That idea would work for the rear. However, you should get some advice from someone who knows SA trucks better than I for the front. If you start messing with longer shackles, I believe you will mess with caster angle, which can affect your steering and on road handling.

I suggest a PM to 4Crawler on the board here for starters. He is an amazing resource, and should be able to handle all of your questions.

Secondly, unless you plan on going to 35's or bigger someday, 5.29 may be overkill for 33's. Unless you have an Auto tranny, in which case that would be a good bet.

Thanks, for the info and help. I would love to go to 35's at some point. However, I think I will go with 4:88's. Due to the much needed powere steering swap, it looks like I will be trailing 31's, then going to 33's due to budget. I drove my 89 with 31's with success. I guess I can tough it out again till I get the 33's. I mainly just want to build a clean/reliable, road/trail worthy rig. It will probably be my sons one day in the future.

Yota Doc · 09-18-2007, 03:47 PM

Dude, that was a good video. I really enjoyed it. Your ride seems very trail worthy.

stormin94 · 09-19-2007, 01:10 AM

Makes sense with the drive train coming first... I just can't stand having open diffs. I would be able to get SOO much further with something as simple as a posi.

Knuckles · 09-19-2007, 01:37 AM

this is a excellent thread

Quote:

The order of importance for different modifications on your truck is as follows.

1. Drivetrain
2. Armor
3. Tires
4. Suspension

im going to put that list on a sticky note and put it in my 4runner

Bskey · 09-21-2007, 07:32 AM

Thanks for this thread! I just picked up my '85 SR5 4Runner and was wondering what the best, most efficient trail mod path is. Here's a good guideline.

I am coming from a nicely built street car that had amazing brakes, so I feel like the braking on the 4Runner sucks! Is this a common mod too?

AxleIke · 09-21-2007, 10:34 AM

No. Brakes are usually not modified. Many do, but it isn't usually the first mod, or even a common mod.

You can't drive it like a sports car. Slow and steady.

BLKNBLU · 09-21-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bskey

Thanks for this thread! I just picked up my '85 SR5 4Runner and was wondering what the best, most efficient trail mod path is. Here's a good guideline.

I am coming from a nicely built street car that had amazing brakes, so I feel like the braking on the 4Runner sucks! Is this a common mod too?

Actually there is a brake mod for the straight axle trucks, although as Ike said, it's probably not the first thing on everyones list. It involves putting on rotors from an FJ ( I think 40 and 60 series are the same part but I wouldn't swear to it) and calipers from an IFS application (86-95) or an FJ 60/62. What you get is vented rotors with larger/beefier calipers that bolt right up. The nice thing with this mod is that you can just wait until your current brakes are finished and swap in different parts. There are write-ups about it around if you want to search it out. There are also rear disc swaps around (search YT member Elvota for a write up) but personally that would be waaaay down the line on my mod list.

Edit: IIRC on the front brake swap you might have to grind or pound a bit on your brake backing plate to get the IFS calipers to fit. It's minimal, but it's not completely bolt on as I wrote above.

mrnick1979 · 09-29-2007, 10:20 AM

hey everyone, i dont see many 2 door 4runners 2nd genration around. i just bought a 1990 to do some work on. i havnt made my mind up, either i am going to fix it up or sell it. my wife says she wants a tahoe or yukon. these must be pretty rare. if i dont fix it how much is this thing worth? the body is in good shape no cancer, it is 4wd v6, with a five speed sr5 package.interior is good shape for its age. it has a blown head gasket. truck has 195000 miles on it but the motor has about 80k. i was going to rebuild the engine completeley so i wasnt worried to much about the miles. so what do you guys think? repair it and make her drive it or sell it ?

hmmwv15 · 10-09-2007, 07:09 PM

great info, will be looking into lockers instead of lift now!

mwilliam13 · 10-10-2007, 09:59 PM

thank you, AxleIke. Very informative.

Bskey · 10-10-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLKNBLU

Actually there is a brake mod for the straight axle trucks, although as Ike said, it's probably not the first thing on everyones list. It involves putting on rotors from an FJ ( I think 40 and 60 series are the same part but I wouldn't swear to it) and calipers from an IFS application (86-95) or an FJ 60/62. What you get is vented rotors with larger/beefier calipers that bolt right up. The nice thing with this mod is that you can just wait until your current brakes are finished and swap in different parts. There are write-ups about it around if you want to search it out. There are also rear disc swaps around (search YT member Elvota for a write up) but personally that would be waaaay down the line on my mod list.

Edit: IIRC on the front brake swap you might have to grind or pound a bit on your brake backing plate to get the IFS calipers to fit. It's minimal, but it's not completely bolt on as I wrote above.

I've already collected a set of v6 calipers, master cylinder and brake booster from a '95 4Runner. I just need to get the rotors and SS brake lines. All the parts I already have were from a cheap donor vehicle. The locker is in the mail too!

-ROKTOY- · 10-21-2007, 07:37 PM

Very good information...

Djlarroc · 10-21-2007, 08:05 PM

Good thread. Thanks for the info! Do you think 33s are the minimum to make it the most capable trail rig? I'm in CO too.

stormin94 · 10-21-2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djlarroc

Good thread. Thanks for the info! Do you think 33s are the minimum to make it the most capable trail rig? I'm in CO too.

No. IMO you don't even need 33's. Just lockers, and stuff.

Djlarroc · 10-21-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormin94

No. IMO you don't even need 33's. Just lockers, and stuff.

I agree, but I have been reading thread after thread after thread where people go back and forth saying the 1/2"-1" of ground clearance under your diffs can make you or break you. I'm ready to buy tires now and I'm trying to decide. I'd hate to get 31's/32's and wish I had 33's.

gametom · 10-21-2007, 08:53 PM

where's a good place to get lockers for a 2nd gen runner

AxleIke · 10-22-2007, 11:20 AM

33's are not required for anything. They are the largest tire you can fit without lifting the truck or serious fender modification. 33's will not make a truck capable. As said, that is what lockers and gears do.

33's give you ground clearnace. Make or break? Negatory. Lockers will make or break a trail. 33's vs 32's will not.

I like Performance Offroad Center. http://www.performanceoffroadcenter.com/

I also recomend TRDParts4U. They are a vendor here, and it is always good to support vendors. You will have to contact them through here to get the deals. PORC is not affilated with YT.

tc · 10-22-2007, 12:32 PM

33's make or break? Maybe not.

Really kicking yourself for not doing them when you had to buy tires anyways ... DEFINITELY

Djlarroc · 10-22-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

33's make or break? Maybe not.

Really kicking yourself for not doing them when you had to buy tires anyways ... DEFINITELY

Ok. That's still the boat I'm in though

tc · 10-22-2007, 03:46 PM

1 other thing to consider is that 33's are often a "qualifier" or "requirement" for certain trail runs with some groups.

I know, it's silly, but it is what it is...

08-07-2007, 06:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
truckmike26 Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 149	Wow. Creepy I read this post now seeing as I was thinking about this just yesterday. Why? Because I simply crunched all the numbers and lift, SAS or IFS brackets, equates to evaporating my money quickly -- lift itself, in some cases bigger rims, gears and installation parts, driveshafts, brake lines, increased wear on everything and likelyhood of busting something , even more crummy fuel mileage, poorer resale value, can't get into some parking complexes (big city dweller, here) and then more engine mods to get back the power loss from all the extra drag. Fergetit. For my case, factory 31" tires is already a great size for this size of truck, and keeping them, I get factory reliablity, fit, the parts store has my service parts, speedo, ECM/ABS lights work and don't light up (get to keep my factory 4.88 gears that are paid for!), on and on. Lockers, aggressive 31" mud tires, proper underbelly/chassis/body reinforcement should go pretty far for the terrain here in S. Ontario. Anyone got a 4 cyl. non ADD front axle and hubs for sale? Bonus if you're in Ontario. __________________ '94 Xtra-Cab V6, auto, Borla cat-back, home-made intake w/K&N cone '09 4Runner SR5, license plate protectors

08-16-2007, 08:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	That idea would work for the rear. However, you should get some advice from someone who knows SA trucks better than I for the front. If you start messing with longer shackles, I believe you will mess with caster angle, which can affect your steering and on road handling. I suggest a PM to 4Crawler on the board here for starters. He is an amazing resource, and should be able to handle all of your questions. Secondly, unless you plan on going to 35's or bigger someday, 5.29 may be overkill for 33's. Unless you have an Auto tranny, in which case that would be a good bet. __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy

09-18-2007, 03:47 PM	#7 (permalink)
Yota Doc Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Farmerville,La. Posts: 33	Dude, that was a good video. I really enjoyed it. Your ride seems very trail worthy. __________________ 00' Taco \| ARB Bull Bar \| Warn XD9000 \| KC's \| Fabtech adjustable coil overs \| Rear diff Mod \| 16" Classic II Rims \| Total Chaos Spindel Gussets U chicken or whut?

09-19-2007, 01:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
stormin94 Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lake County, CA/Sacramento Posts: 3,535	Makes sense with the drive train coming first... I just can't stand having open diffs. I would be able to get SOO much further with something as simple as a posi. __________________ 1994 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4X4 213,000 miles and counting 3.0 V6, 5 speed 10/15 MPG city/hwy(with 33's) Current Mods Headers, 2.5" Flowmaster custom exhaust, K&N FIPK KC Daylighter 100 Watt lights Ranchos x4, 2" Lift Downey coils 33-12.50 M/T's, 1" t-bar lift, 1" body lift Tow pkg w/ lighthookups Silverstar Headlights, Pioneer Deck w/XM Brushguard 250Watt JLAudio 8" W3 Sub Future Mods 12V Aux outlet-400/800peak inverter roof basket/lights Air locker 4.88 gears H.O. Alternator

09-21-2007, 07:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bskey Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 156	Thanks for this thread! I just picked up my '85 SR5 4Runner and was wondering what the best, most efficient trail mod path is. Here's a good guideline. I am coming from a nicely built street car that had amazing brakes, so I feel like the braking on the 4Runner sucks! Is this a common mod too? __________________ Just a Yota sponge right now, soakin' up info......

08-16-2007, 07:06 AM	#4 (permalink)
blu82project Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 7	Man, you really got me thing now. After crunching numbers, I was getting depressed. What would you suggest for an 82 solid axle. The 5.29 gears and lockers aside, how do I cram those 33's in there. If I could get by with that, I could do my power steering upgrade too. Do you think 2" shackles and rebuilt hangers would get me there? Are am I thinking too elaborate again. I like simplicity. Thanks for this write up. You got my head cleared of all the "I need this to go far". Thanks, Tim

09-21-2007, 10:34 AM	#11 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	No. Brakes are usually not modified. Many do, but it isn't usually the first mod, or even a common mod. You can't drive it like a sports car. Slow and steady. __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy

09-29-2007, 10:20 AM	#13 (permalink)
mrnick1979 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: South Carolina Posts: 146	hey everyone, i dont see many 2 door 4runners 2nd genration around. i just bought a 1990 to do some work on. i havnt made my mind up, either i am going to fix it up or sell it. my wife says she wants a tahoe or yukon. these must be pretty rare. if i dont fix it how much is this thing worth? the body is in good shape no cancer, it is 4wd v6, with a five speed sr5 package.interior is good shape for its age. it has a blown head gasket. truck has 195000 miles on it but the motor has about 80k. i was going to rebuild the engine completeley so i wasnt worried to much about the miles. so what do you guys think? repair it and make her drive it or sell it ?

10-09-2007, 07:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
hmmwv15 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Good 'ole Georgia Posts: 1,805	great info, will be looking into lockers instead of lift now! __________________ I haven't failed, I've just found several different ways NOT to fix this truck. :D Sean

10-10-2007, 09:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
mwilliam13 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48	Information for noobs like me. thank you, AxleIke. Very informative. __________________ Bill M. Pueblo, CO '86 4runner 2" RB BL rear Aussie 150lb/in rear helper coils --(thanks Zuk!)

10-21-2007, 07:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
-ROKTOY- Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Big Island, Va Posts: 37	Very good information... __________________ Kenny 1994 Toyota 4x4 2.4L - 5spd - 1.5" BJ Spacers - 3" Shackles - Rancho's Front/Rear - 33" BFG A/Ts - 4.88's - Aussie Locked F/R - Brush Guard - Rock Sliders - Optima RedTop - Pacesetter Header - Pacesetter TFX Kat-Back - K&N FIPK - Venom Fuel Injectors - M Y S P A C E

10-21-2007, 08:05 PM	#18 (permalink)
Djlarroc Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,322	Good thread. Thanks for the info! Do you think 33s are the minimum to make it the most capable trail rig? I'm in CO too.

10-21-2007, 08:53 PM	#21 (permalink)
gametom Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Manhattan IL Posts: 478	where's a good place to get lockers for a 2nd gen runner __________________ 91 4runner 22re mostly stock 2006 taco rims pioneer head with ipod controller cerwin vega speakers and 2 12" subs 2007 Kawasaki Ninja 1968 Bronco rusting away until i get the garage cleaned "I've never met a Walmart employee who was trained to do anything but look confused." Squidii On DSLR

10-22-2007, 11:20 AM	#22 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	33's are not required for anything. They are the largest tire you can fit without lifting the truck or serious fender modification. 33's will not make a truck capable. As said, that is what lockers and gears do. 33's give you ground clearnace. Make or break? Negatory. Lockers will make or break a trail. 33's vs 32's will not. I like Performance Offroad Center. http://www.performanceoffroadcenter.com/ I also recomend TRDParts4U. They are a vendor here, and it is always good to support vendors. You will have to contact them through here to get the deals. PORC is not affilated with YT. __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy Last edited by AxleIke; 10-22-2007 at 11:22 AM.

10-22-2007, 12:32 PM	#23 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	33's make or break? Maybe not. Really kicking yourself for not doing them when you had to buy tires anyways ... DEFINITELY __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

10-22-2007, 03:46 PM	#25 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	1 other thing to consider is that 33's are often a "qualifier" or "requirement" for certain trail runs with some groups. I know, it's silly, but it is what it is... __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

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