Update on removing secondary air filter & K&n filter install

merace19 · 06-27-2007, 01:59 AM

My wife has noticed only slightly increased mileage. it went for 16.9 to about 18.9. She drives a lot of interstate miles with a bunch of running around in town. So about 2 miles a gallon and this has stayed the same cause she does not drive any different before or after the install. This has been on 6 full tanks of the same brand of fuel.
So at 20,000 miles a year(yes)
from 16.9 @ 2.98 gallon a cost of $3526
to 18.9 @ 2.98 gallon a cost of $3153
For a yearly savings of $373.
Yes i know it will vary due to me driving it every blue moon(heavy footed) and other factors but if we just got half that savings its still more than the cost of the mod done.

Prius which gets about 45 mpg driving like we would use it would cost

$1324 for a savings of $1829 a year. Problem is I cannt find one of those bastareds that they will sell even at sticker.
Not trying to start any post war just wanting to post some helpfull info on MY personnel experiances with the mod mentioned.

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BlakeTTS · 06-27-2007, 10:03 AM

I did the same with my 4Runner and just drove down from Portland to Los Angeles where I got 23.6mpg. Thought that was pretty good. That is with removing the secondary and with a K&N flat panel.

johnsenpa · 06-27-2007, 10:30 AM

but with the increased oxygen doesn't it burn more oil with the increasd oxy available, thus increasing build up in engine over time

BlakeTTS · 06-27-2007, 12:24 PM

You would assume so. I had checked my oil before I left LA to Portland and again when I left Portland to LA, and with 6000 miles on that oil it was still suprisingly clean. Id say at this point that with the removal of the filter it has not made an impact on the oil's integrity.

William · 06-28-2007, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsenpa

but with the increased oxygen doesn't it burn more oil with the increasd oxy available, thus increasing build up in engine over time

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Why would there be more oxygen?

If the vehicle is truly being driven the same, the airflow is the same, and so is the oxygen content of that air.

The only way there could be more air flow is if the throttle is open far enough to take advantage of the decreased restriction. And that decrease in restriction would probably only be a benefit when the throttle is at or very near wide open.

After all, with the throttle partially open, for instance about halfway, the throttle plate is the most restrictive part of the intake. No modification other than forced induction or a bigger throttle body will cause more airflow at half throttle.

And keep this in mind: With increased airflow comes more fuel. As airflow increases, the fuel injection system senses this and increases the fuel flow to compensate. The fuel mixture should be the same both before and after the modification because of this. There's no more more oxygen available to burn any oil that's there than before.

Assuming that the rings or valve guides don't wear more after the modification for some reason, there would be no more oil introduced into the combustion chambers. So again, there would be no more oil burned than before.

And if anything, you would want unburned oil to burn. Unburned oil in the combustion chambers causes deposits.

cimahar · 07-02-2007, 07:48 PM

please, some more info on this subject gentleman

merace19 · 07-04-2007, 05:14 AM

Dont know what they talking about buring or using oil. Oil in my wifes is fine.
Update on the mileage. Its going up 19.4 mpg. And she drives the same route every day. Course she has her Eye on the Prius now that she is paying for the gas.

BlakeTTS · 07-25-2007, 11:02 AM

Its official. I now have 1500 miles on removing the stock air filter, replacing it with a drop in K&N panel filter, also removed the charcoal secondary filter. Results? 22.3mpg! Not bad for a Runner?! Especially when you consider Im in LA traffic.

merace19 · 08-20-2007, 02:17 PM

still getting about 22mpg with mod.

RTCarlin · 09-10-2007, 06:19 PM

Have you noticed any difference in the idle? I've heard that the secondary filter evens out airflow to the MAF sensor. Works the same as the throttle body screen in other vehicles.

I stare at that filter every time I've opened my intake up and wondered if it really needed to be there....

---Ron

merace19 · 09-11-2007, 01:12 AM

I have not had any issues. It runs just fine. And my wife would be the first on my ass if there was any issues with HER 4runner.

BlakeTTS · 09-12-2007, 07:33 AM

If anything, it might idle a tad bit lower in the RPM's when you take it out. There really is no need for that thing.
Think Ive said it before, but if you were to put on a cold air kit, or a short ram kit, it would be taken out either way. I still cant beleive that Im getting the kind of gas mileage around LA in this truck. Besides, even if it does anything, I personally am just going to sell it in a few years and get another new one.

William · 09-12-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlakeTTS

There really is no need for that thing.

Not to start a post war, but I'm not sure I agree with that.

Toyota engineers aren't dumb. In fact, looking at how well designed the vehicles are that Toyota sells, and how durable and reliable they are, I would say that they're some of the best engineers in the world. If there was no need for it, I honestly don't think they would have seen the need to design it that way.

I'm not trying to say the vehicle will suffer some kind of major problem if you remove it. I really have no way of knowing that. But I would say there is a need for it.

One thing about it, if you have problems as a result of removing it, it might be a few years down the road before you see any negative result. By then it will be too late. If you leave it in, then you have nothing to be concerned about.

merace19 · 09-13-2007, 06:05 AM

Its a emissions item. prevents fuel vapors from excaping after you shut it off.
Pull it out and dont worry about it.

William · 09-13-2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merace19

prevents fuel vapors from excaping after you shut it off.

I can't agree with that, because it makes no sense. If air can move in one direction through it, then fuel vapor can certainly move in the other direction through it. It's not a check valve, is it? Nope.

Besides, fuel is injected just before the intake valve. The vapors would have to travel pretty far for them to exit the air intake. And for the vapors to do that, something (such as air) would have to displace the vapor. When the engine is turned off, air (and fuel) flow stops flowing into the engine, and has no reason to back up, which is what would have to happen to push vapor out of the intake.

I don't even think fuel vapor escapes through the inlet of the filter housing of carburated engines, where the fuel enters the intake much closer to the filter housing inlet compared to a fuel injected engine. If it did happen, fuel would be smelled on a regular basis around carburated engines. But fuel isn't smelled around carburated engines, unless there's a leak. So why would a fuel injected engine need something to keep fuel vapors in the intake?

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think it's for emissions. There may be other uses for filters. However, they are usually used for trapping dirt.

merace19 · 09-13-2007, 03:46 PM

removed to maintain a sense of info sharing not head bashing

William · 09-13-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merace19

William you have done nothing but start crap. You need to do a search on stuff that you have no clue about. In addition, to clarify here is the description of this 2nd "charcoal" filter:
"A charcoal filter, which adsorbs the HC that accumulates in the intake system when the engine is stopped,
is used in the air cleaner case in order to reduce evaporative emissions. This filter is maintenance-free."

Regardless of what you think of me or my intentions, I never intended to "start crap". I even said "Not to start a post war", which should have told you that I didn't want to "start crap".

In fact, I never found such information when I did a search. And I never at all specifically said that the secondary filter wasn't used for emissions purposes. As a matter of fact, I said "I might be wrong about this, but I don't think it's for emissions."

And somehow I must have missed the fact that this is a "charcoal" filter. Had I known this, I might would have came to a different conclusion as to why it's needed.

Are you satisfied now?

Now that I finally understand why it's there, I also understand why it's maintenance free: When the engine starts, the hydrocarbons are purged by the flow of air into the engine, just like a carbon (charcoal) canister purge valve purges fuel vapors (hydrocarbons) by opening under certain conditions, allowing engine vacuum to suck the fuel vapors out of the carbon canister.

Apparently I do "have a clue" when I know all the facts. Maybe I'm not so stupid after all, like you seem to think.

And you seem to want to "start crap" when you respond to me the way that you do.

merace19 · 09-13-2007, 05:52 PM

removed to maintain a sense of info sharing not head bashing

William · 09-13-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merace19

So basically ignore anything you say cause you just spouting off at the mouth without researching or hell even looking a few post down.

Like I posted before, I did research, but like I obviously posted before, I didn't find anything about that. It should be obvious that somehow the search engine I used missed that, but that isn't my fault. If you read back, I said "In fact, I never found such information when I did a search". So that is obvious, but somehow you missed that. You missed that because you intend to make me look bad.

And like I also said, I must have somehow missed the post about a charcoal secondary air filter. A simple mistake, something that you seem to think you aren't capable of.

So it's not an issue where I did no researching (like you stated), and I simply made a mistake when I missed the word "charcoal" in a previous post. I'm sorry that I'm not perfect like you are.

William · 09-13-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merace19

"you just spouting off at the mouth" "You add nothing a take away from the post".

And it's obvious from the above quotes (which make no sense) that you are no more perfect that I am, so you have no reason to belittle me.

Are you finished now?

William · 09-13-2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merace19

Its a emissions item. prevents fuel vapors from excaping after you shut it off.

You at least partially agree with me, because in the post above the one I quoted here I said "I would say there is a need for it". And you stated the reason why it's needed.

Maybe I'm not so stupid after all.

Finished yet?

merace19 · 09-13-2007, 06:48 PM

removed to maintain a sense of info sharing not head bashing

William · 09-13-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Why would there be more oxygen?

If the vehicle is truly being driven the same, the airflow is the same, and so is the oxygen content of that air.

The only way there could be more air flow is if the throttle is open far enough to take advantage of the decreased restriction. And that decrease in restriction would probably only be a benefit when the throttle is at or very near wide open.

After all, with the throttle partially open, for instance about halfway, the throttle plate is the most restrictive part of the intake. No modification other than forced induction or a bigger throttle body will cause more airflow at half throttle.

And keep this in mind: With increased airflow comes more fuel. As airflow increases, the fuel injection system senses this and increases the fuel flow to compensate. The fuel mixture should be the same both before and after the modification because of this. There's no more more oxygen available to burn any oil that's there than before.

Assuming that the rings or valve guides don't wear more after the modification for some reason, there would be no more oil introduced into the combustion chambers. So again, there would be no more oil burned than before.

And if anything, you would want unburned oil to burn. Unburned oil in the combustion chambers causes deposits.

Useless crap?

Like this, which you seemed to agree with 2 posts later? Obviously I'm not very retarded or stupid because you at least partially agree with me. I obviously added this to the conversation (you later implied that I have nothing to add), and yet you agreed with me.

If I'm a retard and am stupid, and you agree with me, what does that say about you?

I don't know what your problem is, but you certainly aren't going to keep me from coming to this site.

William · 09-13-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merace19

Name at the top of this post is (Update on removing secondary air filter & K&n filter install)

Which says nothing about charcoal...

And your point is?

William · 09-16-2007, 10:04 AM

To those of you who participated in or read this topic (and this includes the original poster), I apologize for my part in the argument between myself and merace19.

I also apologize about the mistaken information I stated, which was due to me somehow missing the fact that the secondary filter was a charcoal filter and an emission control part.

07-02-2007, 07:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
cimahar Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Central New York Posts: 97	help please, some more info on this subject gentleman __________________ I know all about the jeep thing, Thats why I drive a TOYOTA ,, Yeah Barbie drives a JeeP When it absolutely positively needs to be destroyed overnight , THE UNITED STATES MARINES 2004 4Runner Limited Nautical Blue Metallic 4X4 V8- JBL-Roof Rack-Moon Roof-Sport Edition Wheels-Aluminum Skid Plate-

07-25-2007, 11:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
BlakeTTS Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 33	Its official. I now have 1500 miles on removing the stock air filter, replacing it with a drop in K&N panel filter, also removed the charcoal secondary filter. Results? 22.3mpg! Not bad for a Runner?! Especially when you consider Im in LA traffic. Last edited by BlakeTTS; 07-26-2007 at 07:20 AM.

09-13-2007, 03:46 PM	#16 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	removed to maintain a sense of info sharing not head bashing Last edited by merace19; 09-16-2007 at 10:31 AM.

09-13-2007, 05:52 PM	#18 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	removed to maintain a sense of info sharing not head bashing Last edited by merace19; 09-16-2007 at 10:31 AM.

09-13-2007, 06:48 PM	#22 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	removed to maintain a sense of info sharing not head bashing Last edited by merace19; 09-16-2007 at 10:31 AM.

06-27-2007, 10:03 AM	#2 (permalink)
BlakeTTS Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 33	I did the same with my 4Runner and just drove down from Portland to Los Angeles where I got 23.6mpg. Thought that was pretty good. That is with removing the secondary and with a K&N flat panel.

06-27-2007, 10:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
johnsenpa Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vesuvius, Virginia / Ottawa, Illinois Posts: 159	but with the increased oxygen doesn't it burn more oil with the increasd oxy available, thus increasing build up in engine over time

06-27-2007, 12:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
BlakeTTS Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 33	You would assume so. I had checked my oil before I left LA to Portland and again when I left Portland to LA, and with 6000 miles on that oil it was still suprisingly clean. Id say at this point that with the removal of the filter it has not made an impact on the oil's integrity.

07-04-2007, 05:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	Dont know what they talking about buring or using oil. Oil in my wifes is fine. Update on the mileage. Its going up 19.4 mpg. And she drives the same route every day. Course she has her Eye on the Prius now that she is paying for the gas.

08-20-2007, 02:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	still getting about 22mpg with mod.

09-10-2007, 06:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
RTCarlin Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1	Have you noticed any difference in the idle? I've heard that the secondary filter evens out airflow to the MAF sensor. Works the same as the throttle body screen in other vehicles. I stare at that filter every time I've opened my intake up and wondered if it really needed to be there.... ---Ron

09-11-2007, 01:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	I have not had any issues. It runs just fine. And my wife would be the first on my ass if there was any issues with HER 4runner.

09-12-2007, 07:33 AM	#12 (permalink)
BlakeTTS Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 33	If anything, it might idle a tad bit lower in the RPM's when you take it out. There really is no need for that thing. Think Ive said it before, but if you were to put on a cold air kit, or a short ram kit, it would be taken out either way. I still cant beleive that Im getting the kind of gas mileage around LA in this truck. Besides, even if it does anything, I personally am just going to sell it in a few years and get another new one.

09-13-2007, 06:05 AM	#14 (permalink)
merace19 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 154	Its a emissions item. prevents fuel vapors from excaping after you shut it off. Pull it out and dont worry about it.

09-16-2007, 10:04 AM	#25 (permalink)
William Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Bradley Junction, Florida Posts: 276	To those of you who participated in or read this topic (and this includes the original poster), I apologize for my part in the argument between myself and merace19. I also apologize about the mistaken information I stated, which was due to me somehow missing the fact that the secondary filter was a charcoal filter and an emission control part. __________________ '06 Tacoma TRD 4wd 4 door short bed. Rear locker mod (can use in high range and 2wd now). Skyjacker 3" lift struts with new rear springs and shocks. Home made spacers in front for another 3/4" lift. Roadmaster overload springs in the rear for another 7/8" lift, and better carrying/towing ability. 285/75-16 BFG All Terrains. More to come. '08 Yamaha FJR1300 with ABS and power adjustable windshield. '06 Yamaha Wolverine 450 sport/4wd ATV

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