rattlewagon

Quick question. If I put a single topshift case behind my r150f, will it line up with the stock crossmember?

engineshoppa

This is great information! And yet another reason Yotatech is awesome. Sub'ed for reference.

TheeMikeB

I know this thread is old but this was SO informative. Thanks Big Mike! I totally understand it now!

BigMike

I am sorry for the extremely late response.

The rotation is done between the Crawl Box and the Transfer Case.

The 10-degree rotation option raises the bottom-most portion of the t/case up by almost 2 inches, resulting in increased ground clearance in both the t/case and the front drive line. The rotation is achieved by the adapter plate, located between the Crawl Box and the Transfer Case. So the Crawl Box will be in the stock (zero degree) location, as prescribed by the transmission, and the Transfer Case will be rotated 10-degrees counter-clockwise when viewing the t/case from the rear axle.

Because the rotation is done at the adapter plate, in a triple case setup, where you have two adapter plates, one could use two 10-degree adapters for a 20-degree transfer case rotation ... and also 30-degree with a quad setup, et cetera. It is worth while to mention that the t/case is gravity dependent in its oiling system, both with the "oil catch trays" of the gear drive t/case and the mechanical oil pump of the chain drive t/case: If you rotate the t/case too much, you will degrade its oiling system. In our experience 10-degrees is entirely safe and has no ill side affects.

Things to consider when rotating:
Crossmember: There are fewer dual case crossmember options that accommodate the rotation. Front Range Off Road (FROR) makes a 10-degree version of their crossmember and I believe at one time BudBuilt was offering a 10-degree version of their crossmember as well. Of course these are not required as one could simply retain the factory Toyota crossmember which uses a single crossmember mount bolted to the Crawl Box (remember the Crawl Box is not rotated). So this is not a concern if you use the stock crossmember. HOWEVER, what then is the point, I ask, if one desires to gain ground clearance of the t/case only to be limited by the stock crossmember which sits beneath the t/case? I say this in opposition to not only the stock crossmember but also the Budbuilt, and this is why I don't run a Budbuilt crossmember myself: The thickness of the stock t/case mount plus a stock crossmember is like half a foot of lost ground clearance. Therefore, in my opinion, I recommend using the FROR rotated crossmember or a custom style tube crossmember like what 4X Innovations offers.

Bent Shift(ers): If you rotate the transfer case, then the shifters get rotated also. You don't want them poking into your passenger's seat and/or leg, unless it's your wife and you need an excuse to fondle her leg while wheeling, so we have to bend the shifter 10-degrees to accommodate. Bending the shifter can be done by heating the metal shaft near the pivot ball, but you need to take care in that the handle is a two piece design with an internal rubber isolator that will melt if overheated. Moreover some may grip the shifter incorrectly by the shift finger and shear it clean off. I'm sure most people simply keep their shifter straight (and my intro to this section perhaps for comedic relief), but for those of us running Twin Sticks we manufacture a 10-degree rotated Twin Stick kit with shifters bent and at the same height. Unfortunately at this time we are not offering our Twin Stick kit.

Oil fill level: The fill plug of the transfer case is rotated upwards in relation to the center line of the unit. Therefore when you fill to the fill line, it becomes in fact overfilled. It's not a bad thing for the t/case to be overfilled, but it does increase the chances of oil burping out of the shift handle and/or twin stick breather vent. I run my cases slightly overfill anyway and I don't experience any leaking, but it could happen.

Yes, this is correct (sorry I did not provide this assurance when you originally posted). The dual case adapter fits in as shown:
transfercase--v6adapterplate--2.28crawlboxtopshift--(MC07 zero- or 10-degree Adapter)--4.70transfercasetopshift
It is part of the Crawl Box, so it's not entirely worth mentioning exclusively, but I've added it for reference to show where the optional 10-degree rotation is obtained.

Sounds like you've got all your ducks in a row. As for a crossmember, the ones mentioned above that I'd recommend are:
BudBuilt - https://budbuilt.com/index.php?page=...art&Itemid=170
Front Range Off Road - http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfos...products_id=31
4X Innovations - http://4xinnovations.com (however I don't see their crossmember listed anymore, but I'm sure they still make it)

Our front V6 adapter plate places the Crawl Box in the proper position for a 4-cylinder t/case mount to line up perfectly with the stock 6-cylinder crossmember. It sounds confusing but it all lines up and works great. Therefore any aftermarket "V6" crossmember (if there is such a thing) will also be fully compatible with our dual case setup.

I provide a community service

BigMike

T4RYota93

This post has been very informative as I prepare to swap out my chain driven case to install a single gear driven t-case with 4.70 gears from Marlin Crawler



Does anyone know if the the 4-cylinder t-case mount has the same bolt pattern (to cross member) as the mount for the v6 t-case or does the cross member need to be re-drilled/tapped?

Thanks

rattlewagon

Its the same bolt pattern. Threads are in the mount, so no need to tap, but I believe they are the same too.

T4RYota93

Awesome thanks!

rattlewagon

I finally did this. gear drive case behind the r150f! Everything lined up cross member wise just as it should! Was able to bolt the bud built v6 slid right back up to it. The new case sits higher, so I can modify the skid, and get an few inches of belly height.

Out with the old

temporary_zps7f140d95.jpg?t=1424144169

We lifted and test fit the case maybe 6 times through out the day. Parts of the tail housing of the r150f need to be trimmed, shifter hole needs to be opened up a little. Once was because this tab was hanging up the 2/4wd shift rail on the trans, even through it looks like it would work.

temporary_zps399e21e6.jpg?t=1424144494

The biggest issue that is temporarly solved is that the shifters hit. A lot.

temporary_zps9af6fde2.jpg?t=1424144498

The hi/low shifter needs to be in the forward position, which doesnt allow me to go over into 3rd. We heat and bent the shifter a few times and got it to fit without the knob on the hi/low shifter. Im going to make a small plate that sits on top of the shifter where the knob would be and its just going to re locate the knob about 2" back.

temporary_zps92045e92.jpg?t=1424144787

Heres a shot of the plate and where I had to grind the tail housing of the r150f so the bolt heads will fit. Ill admit, I got a little carrier away on the right side, but there wasnt that much there to begin with. Haha.

temporary_zpsd48eebe9.jpg?t=1424145737

The back of the case with the new tg mount. The internet was right, it all lines up. But the front and read outputs about an inch back from stock. The front DS had plenty of slip so no big hot dog there, but in the back I needed to re drill holes and move the carrier bearing back. The case now sits almost entirely up above the skid plate, where as the v6 case hung down, so ill be modifying the skid part of the plate to be flatter.

temporary_zps4f964c66.jpg?t=1424145781

Last notes, I did not hook up the spedo, as the truck is a electronic and the t case is cable. They make adapters, but I dont care its a trail rig. Same goes with the 4x4 light. The 2 wires on my sensor fell off long ago, and the new case only has 1 wire, so I just put a bolt in that hole.

TheeMikeB

Resurrection...

I would like to clarify this a bit, I now have a truck with a dual case setup and triple sticks and i'm still learning.

I have 4.7 in rear and 2.28 in front, you are saying that I should never engage the 2.28 (front reduction) case in low on its own while having the rear in (H) to minimize stress?

Two questions about that...

1. How is it any more stress using the front case in low while the rear is in high vs using the front case in low while the rear is in low? Wouldn't the reduction box always be causing stress on the rear when it's in low?

2. If that is the proper way to use it, then what if having the rear in low @ 4.7 is too low of a gear and the 2.28 would be more appropriate? You are saying I should be shifting the transmission to a higher gear instead of leaving rear in high and shifting the front in low? So then I would be perhaps navigating obstacles in 4.7 low, 3rd gear?

I'm coming out of a built 3rd gen single case auto with dual lockers, so this manual shifting with 4 different levers in the truck is a bit different.

Thanks

BigMike

Nice man!

It's unfortunate but fortunate that Fail-Gear is only smart enough to copy existing designs because this is our old method that they 100% copied which wasn't so good. With so much material ground away from the tail housing, the silicone doesn't have a whole lot to seal up to so you need to be extra careful and monitor leaks when using their adapter. Our improved design (since about 6 yrs ago) eliminates the need to do this.

How much chassis vibration have you gained from this?

This is correct. There is no difference. The argument could be made that it will require more torque to maintain the same level of acceleration when the rear case is in high range (ie. it's a taller gear ratio), but all things being equal the amount of torque passing through the t/case input will be the same regardless if the t/case is in high range or low range.

You may have misread my above reply. What I was referring to is that you should install larger gear reductions downstream and utilize them first before working your way upstream. Consider the two theoretical examples:

#1. 100 lb-ft Engine torque > 1:1 transmission > Crawl Box Input > 5:1 Crawl Box > T/Case Input > 2:1 T/Case

and

#2. 100 lb-ft Engine torque > 1:1 transmission > Crawl Box Input > 2:1 Crawl Box > T/Case Input > 5:1 T/Case

Both examples will have a combined gear reduction of 10:1 (1 * 5 * 2 = 1 * 2 * 5 = 10).....

....BUT.....

The T/Case input of example #1 will undergo 500 lb-ft torque (100 lb-ft * 1 * 5) while the T/Case input of example #2 only undergoes 200 lb-ft torque (100 lb-ft * 1 * 2). Therefore, it is best to place the largest gear reduction as far down stream as possible to minimize how many components have to undergo torque multiplication.

As for which low range you should be using most frequently, it is better to engage your larger, downstream gear reduction first before engaging your smaller, upstream gear reduction. Whenever practical of course (more on this below in response to your 2nd Q).

I will argue additional benefits that include less heat generated (torque is passing through fewer components), and because it requires more torque to go up hill while also causing gear oil to run to the back of a multi-t/case setup, you prevent passing said larger amounts of torque through oil-starved components.

To illustrate further, I'd like to share how I use my truck. My Triple Marlin Crawler cases have a 2.28:1, 2.28:1, and 4.70:1 configuration. If I'm on the trail with other traffic then I'll be in a 1:1 --> 1:1 --> 4.70:1 configuration. Alternatively I could be in a 2.28:1 --> 2.28:1 --> 1:1 which is a total reduction of 5.20:1 -- only a 9.6% difference from a single 4.70:1 -- BUT it would not only be passing 5.2-times more torque through my t/case input gear, but it would also require the spinning and heat generation of all the gears and bearings of the combined two front Crawl Boxes which before were just in an idle state not under any load.

Now there is a time, however, where I will engage my second 2.28:1 and disengage my t/case 4.70:1, and this addresses your 2nd question. As you mentioned, I do this whenever I find myself frequently in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear. This happens when I'm not in a big group and have the ability to make up some time and get move'n on the trail. Consider what is happening when I am in 4th gear at 4,500 RPM. Sure, at a 24.9:1 final drive (4th gear * 4.70:1 * 5.29:1 R&P) my speed is only about 20 MPH (37" tires [neglecting deflated dia.]), ....but think about the output of the transmission. If I was in high range 4th gear at the same engine speed then I'd be going 94 MPH!! So only moving down the trail at 20 MPH but yet the transmission output & inputs of both my first and second Crawl Box -- as far as they know -- are spinning at the vehicle speed equivalent of 94 MPH. Poor transmission. Poor Crawl Boxes!! So instead, I choose to run 4th gear @ 20 MPH in my middle 2.28:1 Crawl Box. Now I can be at just 2,200 engine RPM which is the high range vehicle speed equivalent of 45.7 MPH -- and I know my truck can run 45 MPH for hundreds of thousands of miles before it's drivetrain parts wear out.

(Above speed values generated from our online Vehicle Speed Calculator.)

So there is a scenario where I'll run my 2nd Crawl Box in low and my t/case in high. And I do this with the full understanding that my t/case input gear is experiencing elevated torque loading (thank goodness for Marlin Crawler Total Spline input technology!). But what you won't see is me running my first Crawl Box in low and the rest in high because it is advantageous to keep the front Crawl Box in high and use the gearing of my downstream set of 2.28:1 because it will achieve the same end result.

Sorry if I was rambling above. I am in between quite a lot at work and had to stop and restart typing this a few times. Please let me know if any of this helps!

Regards,
BigMike

TheeMikeB

Thanks Mike, this makes sense, once I actually get out and wheel the darn thing it will probably make even more sense.