buckz6319

95 4runner 4x4 v-6 3vze auto....................I have a question and have searched for the answer but couldn't find what I'm wanting to know or it's hidden in some other area of the forum or i'm just over looking it?

My question is this: can I replace that pulley without removing the timing belt?
I have checked the timing belt by removing the timing belt cover #2 and rotated the crank through 2 full revolutions and it looks good just some shine on the belt that rides against the idlers

this is why I think the bearings going bad on the water outlet idler pulley #2.The bearings are making a ticking noise at idle and gets louder when the rpms are increased above 2000, and really vibrates the front bumper at around 3000-4000 rpms.I think its coming from that #2 idler pulley.

I purchased a stethoscope a while back (thanks for the recommended tool thook it works great!) and can probe around that water outlet housing, and can here a distinct clicking noise.I can also here the noise at idle without the scope it kinda sounds like a pulley starting to go bad.I can also here the clicking noise getting louder when raising the rpms above 2000 and above. It's really bad and some times there is a smell coming out from around the timing belt cover #2 kinda smells like burning rubber but the belt doesn't look bad.I really don't want to replace the belt unless I have to it's a money thing for now with the economy being bad and all....
I would appreciate any input on this
Dwayne

thook

Hey Dwayne!

You'll have to pull the front end down and atleast loosen the belt. You can't just pull the thing without having complications with installing the new part. There will be the tension on the belt from the tensioner, and the inlet pipe has to make a good seal on the manifold. So, when you go to try and install the pulley and will be fighting the tension. I've tried......I know.

If the belt isn't glazed or cracking ANYWHERE!! and is still soft'ish and flexible, it will be good for a while yet. You can reuse it, though most will not recommend that. I guess the labor seems daunting, but pulling the front end (to me) is not a big deal just to do this job. No gaskets save the inlet will need to be touched.

But, before you replace the idler pulley, check for play in the bearing. Also, check to see if it's dry feeling. The pulley shouldn't rotate completely free. There should be some resistance so that when spun by hand it only rotates a bit and stops rotating rather quickly. But, if its spins freely and easily, it is rather worn and dry....even if you don't feel play.

In the event you find the belt to have any cracking or glazed, etc. I may have one that has about 21k on it. IOW, I do have it, but I will need to check it's condition. It's been sitting in storage since I replaced the motor a few years ago. If it's good, and you need one, you can have it for the cost of shipping. Would last you (if in good shape) for another 40k or more. Just let me know.

RMA

I just tried this about 2 weeks ago on my 1994, The large idler in the middle of the two cams was bad and making noise .I tried to just replace the idler by putting vise grips and marks on the cams pulleys and the belt ,didnt work for me , jumped a tooth .
You can try it but will kick yourself for having to do it twice, granted I am no professional that probably can do it with no problem.

thook

Well, you can relax, RMA. I really can't see any professional trying to do it any other way than loosening the belt. As you know, it's a pain and silly (really) to do it without loosening.

RMA

Yea My Dumb Butt learned the hard way. BUt I can now change the timing belt on a 3vze alot easier and faster .

buckz6319

Thanks for the info thook and the offer on that used belt I'll keep that in mind
It is going to rain here this weekend again and will not be doing any work on the 4runner because of it.I really need a garage like I used to have it's a pain in the rear when it's raining and I need to work on the 4runner

well thanks for the advice I really thought I could take tension off that belt by a ratchet strap put in the sweet spot and ratcheting down on it,just to take the tension off a little to be able to remove that pulley.............gosh these motors are a pita sometimes
Dwayne

buckz6319

RMA...thanks for the reply....now I don't feel as thought I was the only one wanting to do this and I'm glad I got the advice before I tried any thing at this point..........good to here that you can change out that belt and pulleys now no problem.

How do I loosen up the belt just enough to remove that pulley?

TNRabbit

You have to pull the tensioner (or at least back the bolts off it). I actually pulled a HEAD without taking the belt off by putting zip ties around the belt right next to the pulleys.

You might as well replace the tensioner pulley as well, because if one is going, the other probably isn't far behind. You DO NOT want to have to pull that mess off again in the next year! How's your water pump? How many miles on the engine? Do everything you can while it's apart...

Innervision

I have replaced the outlet pully on my 94 4runner without pulling the belt all the way off. I had to remove the intake manifold to get to and replace the No 1 water bypass hose between the heads. Once I had the timing cover off I took some C clamps and locked the belt down against the cams. Then removed and replaced the no. 2 idler pulley.

It made me nervous to do, but I did not have any issues with timing or the belt slipping on teeth. Do what you feel comfortable with. I am sure this is not the correct way to do it, but it can be done. Just realize there is a risk of timing issues and a big headache.

thook

Not to step on anyone's toes [Gary....], but when you get the tensioner pulley loose check it just like you would for the idler pulley. If it feels like it should, there's no real need to change it out now. This is if you need to cut your expense for now......and, you said you do. Of course, you may have to do this labor again down the road, but it's fortunately not the worst job there is and you don't have to go replacing a lot of things/spending money all over again at that point. And, fortunately OEM pulleys don't just crap out with no signs. You will notice the noise, and even then it takes a while for them to really go south. (Even it did, the worst that would happen is your truck will stop running and you'll need a tow home). Now, if you had to do something like pulling the manifold and consequently change a bunch of gaskets, I'd say something different. In your case, all you have to do is loosen the alt. and PS pump, remove the belts, remove the fan, drain some of the coolant so it doesn't spill everywhere, pull the timing cover, loosen your TB, check your pulleys, replace what's dire, and put it all back together. Then, check your ignition timing. Less than a day project.

One last thing....when you go to pull the idler, you'll need to remove that dust cover behind it. Then, squeeze in there with a wobbly extension to get to the four bolts that tighten it down to the manifold. Now, when you go to install the new idler pulley, just make sure you have everything dry and clean for the silicone. You will need to let that cure fully before you refill with coolant and fire it up. Overnight......which, I guess, takes it out of the realm of just one day. Hmmm.....hehe, my bad. Hell.......do whatever you want, Dwayne. This is all just what I'd do. I've certainly had to do things this way with my budget in the past.

buckz6319

update...I have pulled the #2 timing belt cover again because my idler pulley is making more noise now and will have to be replaced soon.I have checked it this past Saturday and there was a lot of movement(play) on the pulley in and out.I also can spin the pulley left and right and feel a lot of roughness in it so I think it's dry and don't know how much longer it has before it seizes up.
I did this test with the timing belt in place and I want to know if I should have been able to do that test with the belt on?

I have the timing belt cover still off so I can drive to and from work for now.I went to check the pulley today with a co worker and the pulley wouldn't spin like before on Saturday.(because the belt was tight against the pulley) but it would move in and out no problem.I started the engine and turned it back off and went back to check the pulley, again and this time I could spin that pulley(belt wasn't tight against the pulley had a gap at the bottom and belt had slack)
What gives I did that test twice this evening after I got home from work and at one point I could spin the pulley and at another point I could only move the pulley in and out
I would like to know what is going on?.... does the belt tensioner only work when the engine is running?....I have tension on the pulley some times when engine is off and no tension some times when engine is off.....does the belt expand and contract that much ?
Can this be explained or am I loosing my mind
I'm tired so if I sound like I'm confused it may be true to some degree
Here are a few pics of the #1 idler pulley moving (notice the black arrow and the top of the belt)

thanks for any input as always
Dwayne

thook

Sounds like the tensioner is failing, Dwayne.......regardless of how the pulley bearing may feel. You should always have enough tension on the belt so the idler pulley wouldn't spin. And, you definitely shouldn't be able to move it in and out or have that much slack on the belt. Imagine the potential slipping on start up.

Hate to say it, but Gary is probably right. You should just get an entire front end kit. I mean, go ahead and check the water pump bearing, but likely it's just as degraded as the pulleys. They sound far worse than my wife's '92 components did when I rebuilt the top end. I was hoping for you you'd be better off. Then again, you're not "bad" off. Just need to do a little TLC.

buckz6319

I want to thank everyone for their input and would like to say that I have taken all the advice and decided to put the much needed timing belt kit on my 94 4runner 3.0

I have purchased a timing kit which includes the following items....idlers #1 & #2,Timing belt and push rod tensioner (which is what I have) for $139.00 = shipping from ebay.I still have to purchase the water pump I can get that locally for $60.00+tax for a new one.I have a Haynes manual and a copy of the 3vze fsm (EG2-33/EG2-49) Timing Belt components for removal and installation and a good bit of mechanical know how.I have read a lot of threads on the timing belt replacement and have a few questions of my own...

I would like to know:
1...Do I have all the parts I need to do the job
2...Can I replace the belt with out having to remove the LH & RH Camshaft Timing pulleys (I don't have any leaking seals)
3.When I do step 15(a) p.EG2-36 & 15(b)... which is turn the crankshaft pulley and align the groove with the timing mark "0" of the No.1 timing belt cover, and 15(b)...which is check that the timing marks on the camshaft timing pulleys and the NO.3 timing belt cover are aligned and they should be,at some point I have to remove the crankshaft pulley and that #1 timing belt cover.
I would like to know if the alignment of the crankshaft pulley groove with the "0" on the #1 timing belt cover, will it still be aligned once they are remove?....and by truning the crankshaft pulley bolt to loosen it (step 20-21 EG2-37/38) will it move the alignment marks out of sink...I'm sorry call me stupid but I just want to try my best to do it right the first time...
4. Can I do a test start up before I actually put the fan components back on just to make sure the timing is correct before I finish it up 100% just to make darn sure I dont have to tear it all the way back down again because of a miss alignment of the belt
5.I have read a post where someone had a problem getting the belt around the Guide, is there a trick to that part
I may have more questions before the end of next week
Thanks for any information and as always I do appreciate it...and hope this will resolve my almost year old vibration issue
Dwayne

bugs1961

All three pulleys have a small notch in the flange to indicate TDC. The crank pulley that the timing belt goes around (not the outside pulley that the Alt, AC, PS belts go on) has a small notch that lines up with a mark on the oil pump housing when you install the new timing belt. You will use this to reset the crank pulley position just prior to putting the new belt on. So it's ok to let the crank pulley move while you are loosening the crankpulley bolt. The camshafts have a notch on the flange that will line up with a line stamped into the backing plate. Take a look at this before you remove the belt to see how it all lines up. The FSM has pictures of all three pulleys that make better sense when you are looking at the actual pulleys. Once you have the new belt installed the FSM has you turn the crank pulley around 2 full revolutions, set the crank pulley notch at the line, and check the position of each cam pulley. They will look just like before with all three notches lining up with the three lines. If any don't line up, that pulley is off by a tooth. Loosen the tensioner and move the cam pulley as required to line up the marks and retension the belt. Turn the crank twice like before and check everything again. If you do this step you can be positive that the belt is properly installed and a test start before full reassembly is not necessary.

Considering the amount of work involved, I always replace the cam and crank seals so I can be sure they will last the 60 to 90k that the new belt will be on.

Go step by step with the FSM, put all bolts and nuts from each step into individual ziploc bags and label them with a Sharpie, and use the right tools.

Take care and good luck,
Bugs

OutlawMike

Get a thermostat from the dealer, while you are in there.

Also, check the upper and lower hoses over really good, since you will have them off.

This really is not as hard as it seems going in, having done it a half dozen times now on various rigs. Don't worry so much about the timing marks. Once you disconnect the cams from the crank by removing the belt, all you have to worry about is getting them all lined up with their marks when you put the belt back on. The crank/pistons do not care about TDC exhaust or TDC compression when the cams are not "attached" via the belt. It is all the same to the crank as long as the mark lines up, you cannot get it 180 degrees out, as the valves dictate exhaust/compression strokes, and they are not in the loop with the belt off and the distributor is driven off of the D-side cam. Make sense?

One thing that can really be a pain, and it shouldn't be, is the nuts that hold the fan on. Start hitting those with PB Blaster a few days in advance. Be very careful to not roll one of them. You cannot get a socket on them, you have to use combination wrenches, and there is not easy way to hold the fan from turning.

Your new water outlet idler pulley assembly might come with a pre-molded gasket in it. Cut that POS off of there and use RTV, TRS, Toyota FIPG, whichever to seal it. That pre-molded gasket is more hassle than it is worth.

Good luck, post up questions when they come up.

TNRabbit

Good luck!

You take off the fan bracket & lay it face down, then put a few drops of oil around the back side of the bearing & rotate it, letting it soak in for a couple of hours while you're working on everything else. These brackets eventually go out & they are expensive as hell. After soaking, all the noise & play in mine went away....worked like a charm!

EDIT: go ahead & remove the radiator, too; it will free up a lot of room & keep you from bending the coils over. Four bolts & two hose clamps & it's out in 5 minutes.

thook

Good posting....

buckz6319

Thanks to all for the good posting
I will print out all this good stuff and have it on hand for reference when I do my timing belt change out next weekend if it doesn't rain
Dwayne

buckz6319

took....I would like to know what size wobbly extension I will need to get the bolt behind that idler pulley.
thanks
Dwayne

TNRabbit

I believe the bolts are 10 mm. There is only one size wobbly, and that's whatever fits your wrench (3/8")?