B-Fake

Upon getting new headers and all new exhaust with no leaks I can finally now hear my engine, and It's pinging on acceleration...pretty bad too. I thought I might have heard it before, but was hoping it might just be the noise of the holes in my exhaust system...it wasn't. Here's the breakdown of what Ive done/observed while trying to diagnose this.

Cap and rotor are newer and look fine, same with plugs and wires. I replaced them all at the same time about a year ago. Did timing chain about 20k mi. ago. Put in a brand new Denso O2 sensor with the new headers.

Tried premium gas, no change.

Checked timing, set to 5 BTDC with T and E1 jumpered, removed jumper and timing advances to about 12 BTDC, all normal. No change.

Checked valve lash, was still .008" intake .012" exhaust at operating temperature.

Checked TPS, was a hair out of whack, adjusted to factory spec per FSM. No change.

Not sure how to check if the knock sensor is good, but there's no difference if it's plugged in or not.

While doing the timing is when I noticed something weird. At idle the timing is right where it should be, but when I give it any amount of gas it advances to like 30 degrees. Not sure exactly where it is because the notch in the pulley goes way off the timing marks, but it looks like around 30 BTDC which doesn't seem normal to me at all.

Anybody know what might be causing this? My only ideas are the knock sensor since there's no difference weather it's plugged in or not, or the coil and/or the ignitor since those are the only obvious parts of the ignition system I haven't replaced. Figured I'd ask the collective YotaTech mind before I start throwing parts at it. Thanks in advance for any help.

B-Fake

Anybody? I really want to get this fixed before it starts doing any damage, the motorcycling days are coming to an end here soon weather wise. Does anybody know how the timing advance actually works on these things, maybe I could find some gremlins if I understood the ignition system a little better.

combatcarl

They advance pretty quick off idle. It's been a while since I watched mine with a timing light, but yours doesn't sound too bad. At TDC, with int/exh rockers loose on #1, is your pulley timing mark lined up? And if the knock sensor is working, you won't get a light. It's a "silent" system, until the ECU loses contact with the KS.

Innocent Fool

Sounds like detonation.
Try retarding your timing

B-Fake

Didn't know that kind of advance was normal, I would've figured it would gradually advance based on RPM's and throttle position. I'll double check the cam timing, but I'm 99% sure it's right, the thing runs great it's just got the pinging issue. The system isn't throwing any codes so I guess the knock sensor is fine.

B-Fake

I've tried retarding the timing to 0 Deg. with T and E1 jumped and it didn't really help. I'm not sure how far is reasonable to go, I suppose I could just keep retarding it 'till it stops pinging?

RJR

You might try running a compression test to see if any cylinder reads abnormally high. Carbon build-up on top of the pistons can raise the compression ratio enough to make it hard to keep it from pinging, regardless of spark advance. Also, carbon deposits will get hot and glow red, igniting the fuel prematurely, and the ECU can't do anything about it.

Do you know the history of the engine? You could pull the plugs and look into the cylinders with a borescope or, nowadays, a USB microscope. Worst case pull the head, which isn't a horrible job on the 22re, and see what's in the cylinders.

If the cylinders are clean you shouldn't have to retard the timing to keep it from pinging - the ECU should do that on its own.

B-Fake

I'll see if anyone I know has a compression gauge I can use. As far as the history, who really knows, the PO said he put a new head on it and that the PPO rebuild the motor. The head does look newer though, and it's not burning oil so I assume there is at least some truth to what I was told. I'll try to check the compression tomorrow. What's the normal range, around 160-170ish?

B-Fake

So I checked the compression and it's pretty high, like around 200psi kind of high. Tried the steam cleaning method running about a gallon of water through the PCV vacuum hose into the intake and it didn't make much difference. Gonna get some Seafoam tomorrow and try that.

B-Fake

Ran Seafoam through it today and no change, still pinging and compression is still high. Looking down through the spark plug holes the tops of the pistons look clean (except #2 which a leak-down test has shown a slightly leaky exhaust valve and seal) so if there's any carbon buildup it's on the head so it looks like I'm gonna be pulling the head off...yay . Not too bad as it's something I've been planning on doing anyways due to the leaky valve, I just hoped I'd be able to get to it while the weather was good.

Since I don't know the real history of the motor, I have no idea if the head has been decked before, and I absolutely hate lapping valve seats, I'm kind of leaning towards just getting a new head from Engnbldr. Does anyone have experience with the over-sized valve option? Just wondering if the HP gain is worth the extra hundred bucks or if it even makes much of a difference.

Nogarage

Is your EGR valve operating as it should be? You'vegot simptoms of egr clogged or diafram torn, easy to test. Or pull the head,...

FGZ

Before you pull the head, seems like you should try some of the cleaner options that are poured directly in the cylinder. Someone told me about it here, usually used for marine stuff.

The steam method was going to be my suggestion, too bad that didn't already work for you.

Seems like with a high enough octane it wouldn't be able to detonate.

EDIT: Here it is, Power Tune - https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f115...ration-277849/

horunner1x

My neighbor who is an old tech/mechanic for toyota told me some 22re engines absolutely hate aftermarket plugs and wires. Some it's fine but others will ping very badly for some reason. Mine was with anything but 91 octane. Cylinders were clean and timing was right at 5°before tdc. I replaced plugs with denso and wires with toyota oem and ping went away. Just my 2 cents.

Odin

What exactly were the results of the compression test?

Stating the obvious here but if all of the cylinders were fairly close to each other it's probably not carbon build up.

You might want to look into that suggestion even if the codes don't point that direction.

RJR

200 psi is high for that engine. Assuming your compression tester is accurate, that suggests you have a shaved or otherwise modified head that is giving you a higher than normal compression ratio.

If the compression ratio is too high, retarding the timing won't prevent pinging. The only thing that will help is higher octane fuel. Have you tried running some 93 octane through it? If that causes the pinging to stop, it's a good bet your compression ratio isn't stock, and you'll either have to live with it and burn the premium fuel, or pull the head and see what's going on.

Odin

That's what I was thinking. I've seen most reporting they have around 140 psi with really high miles and around 170 psi with a stock engine in good shape. A little higher to about 180 range if the head was shaved much.
200 psi to me suggests a bad gauge, shaved head ANd decked block, or maybe higher compression pistons.
But if it really is close to 200 psi in all cylinders I would think the pinging would have been going on for a long time.

With how primitive the FI, ignition, and computer is on these engines I sure wouldn't want to be running close to 200 psi with what's available at the pumps.
I would suggest going and getting some 100-110 race gas and adding it when the tank is about empty and seeing the results but leaded gas can hurt catalytic converters, just how much I don't know.

I'm new to these engines and just spitballing

See those black specks? That's a sure sign of detonation and you don't want that to go on for too long.

B-Fake

Thanks for the input guys, here's what's going on now. I put on a brand new Engnbldr head and if anything, the sound is worse now, probably due to less blow-by in the valves. I checked the thickness of the old head against the new one and they're the same so I know now the old one hadn't been decked. My compression is 200psi on all cylinders (it's kind of an old tester so I can't verify it's accuracy). FSM says it should be around 170psi max. Leak-down test now shows 100% hold on all cylinders. Today I went through all the pipe fittings on the upper intake plenum and teflon taped them to eliminate any possible leaks there, removing them I found there was nothing on any of them before. I started it up to check the timing again and found gas squirting out of one of the injectors which all had BRAND NEW SEAL KITS . So needless to say I'm at an impasse until I get that fixed.

Now what I found upon removing the head. I don't think whoever did the head previously torqued it down right, some bolts came loose no problem and some took a little oomph to break loose. Most of the bolts had oil all over them, one was completely dry and rusting, and one had milkshake all over it so the HG was probably at least a little blown. The combustion chambers and tops of the pistons had some buildup, but not enough in my opinion (and confirmed with installing the new head) to cause the high compression. I of course cleaned the hell out of everything before reassembly. The cylinder walls looked fine, no big ring ridge or scratches or anything. Cylinders were also stock size, no taper, but just over a thousandth out of round. FSM has out of round tolerance at .0008 so they're barely out of tolerance, but probably not enough to cause problems. Pistons come just above the top of the block. FSM says they should come up, if I remember correctly, .005 or .010 above. I didn't measure it (yeah I probably should have), but it didn't feel excessive.

So here's what still stumps me. Why is my compression so high, assuming the gauge I'm using is correct? Could the block have been decked? Is that even something people do? I can kind of understand decking a warped head, but decking a block makes no sense to me especially when everything else (head/cylinder bores/cams) is stock. The ignition timing advancing so much almost right off idle still just doesn't seem right to me, but I don't know everything about these motors so it could be perfectly normal.

Thanks for the help. I'll update again when it's not spraying gas everywhere.

Odin

Find and use a different compression gauge to get a second opinion.
The gauge you used probably just meant you're good to go- within limits.

I'm sure you meant something else but 100% leakage is bad news and the best of the best of the best can't get an engine 100% sealed.

B-Fake

That's the plan, gonna get new injector seals again first.

B-Fake

Ok, so the injectors are now only spraying gas where they should be again . Drove it around to warm up (still pinging under load), checked the timing again, still where it should be. Bought a brand new compression tester and it shows around 190psi on all cylinders so the other gauge I used was reading a little high, but the compression is still about 20psi higher than it should be. It is a possibility, but I can't imagine it would have high compression pistons since everything else is stock spec. Any ideas? I'm pretty stumped here.