sprocket_jim

Here's some background......I sent my 94 runner into the Toyota dealership this week for the relay rod recall work. In the process, they discovered that my idler arm needed replacement also. They could of done it for $350 but I talked them into letting me have it done elsewhere (ASE certified father-in-law this weekend). Since they already replaced the rod, I just need to go back in and get the alignment on Monday after the idler arm replacement.

Here's the deal.....since the runner suffers from the common "butt sag", I went ahead and ordered the HD springs from Downey this week to address that. I understand that I may need to crank the torsion bars to level the runner out. It turns out that I may not get the springs in time for this weekend to do the whole job at once. My hope was to take advantage of the alignment from Toyota. If the springs aren't in by tomorrow (Friday), I want to "pre-crank" the torsion arms in time for the scheduled alignment.
I understand that the Downey kit adds about 1.5" of lift to the rear. I've heard some reports on this forum that people didn't need to adjust the torsion arms after adding this kit. To be on the safe side I was thinking about pre-cranking about an inch in the front. I'm not looking to alter the overall stance. Just level it out. I do prefer the vehicle a little nose high as oppose to rear high. I'll need to get new tires in the near future. I was thinking maybe going to 32x11.5 but may just stay with the stock 31x10.5 so I'm not looking for any drastic clearances. Is there any input from you guys from your experiences? What is the general amount of cranking have you guys encountered to level out the runner? Thanks!

CoedNaked

What I would do personally is just crank the torsion bars no more than 1/2" (measuring from the lip of the fender trip to the top edge of your rim/wheel).

A few reasons:

1) Ride comfort
2) 2nd gen 4runners look absolutely sweet with the ass end/wheel well opening/gap between rim/wheel top edge and fender trim slightly higher than the front.

I know you said you're partial to the nose being slightly higher, but I thought you wanted to get rid of the sag look?

Case in point - my truck gen, basically the same gen as your 4runner, I see about 90-95% of trucks like mine with rear leaf spring sag. My truck does not have leaf spring sag because it has relatively new leaf springs (not sure what brand, but they're not stock), plus an extra leaf spring (so I have 4 leaf springs plus 1 overload compared to 3 and 1 which is stock). I had my torsion bars cranked down in the front last year, and the rear sits maybe 1/2" to 3/4" higher than the front. And the truck looks great! It looks like a truck should look - poised and ready for a load to push down those leaf springs.

On the flip side to this, I saw a 2nd gen 4runner similar to mine in stance, only it had a little bit more of a lift (I think it had a small body lift). And it looked awesome! It made the 4runner look 10 times better than the rear coil spring sagged 2nd gens we notoriously see everywhere. Trust me, while you say you want a slightly higher nose, I'd leave the torsion bars even, or crank them no more than 1/2", and just let the rear sit slightly higher than the front. If worse comes to worse, just do an alignment and torsion bar crank down the road.

sprocket_jim

Thanks Coed. I should of mentioned that the replacement of springs is also for function because the original are worn out. I throw any kind of load in the back and it looks like I've put 2 chest of tools back there. I just don't want to have the back sitting up like a 70's muscle car. I may feel compelled to put slicks in the back That's why I figured some sort of leveling would be required. To agree with what you've said and to put things in perspective, going up the 1/2 inch should keep everything within an inch either way.

wrenchmonster

Re-schedule your appointment and make sure your mods are done before you get the alignment done. My 2 cents.

celica

if you get an alignment & then crank the back up it will change the angles on the front slightly. There is a good write-up about alignment that was done by Bamachem - search & check it out. I would wait to get the alignment unitl the suspension is set up.

sprocket_jim

I may just have to get another alignment depending on how things go. Because of the warranty work, Toyota wants the work order closed. I was just thinking that I would be able to kill two birds with one stone with the alignment on they're dime.

wrenchmonster

Sounds like you've got Toyota by the short hairs. If they can't close the work order until the alignment is done, just tell them you can't do it. They'll keep bugging you, but I don't think they have any right to say "NO" when the alignment is clearly part of the recall. If they close the work order without doing an alignment, they create a liability for themselves, which they don't want.

Like Teddy Roosevelt said, "When you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

CoedNaked

Jim,
For curiousities sake, if you have the time, go out to your 4runner, and measure from the edge of the fender trim, to the top of the rim, on all 4 tires, and report back, I'm willing to bet that currently, with yoru rear spring sag, you're probably an 1 1/2" to 2" difference between the 2 fronts, and the 2 backs.

sprocket_jim

Coed...you're right. The front measure 14.5" and the back 11.5" from top of rim to body lip. Leaving the front alone would put things back to level....in theory. If I wanted the gaps between tires and body to be even then I shouldn't touch the front. The problem is that I want to level the truck out. If I have equal gaps, the truck is ass high if you look at the roof-line and running boards.
So here's another measurement I took. (I'm working in a level garage). I put a floor jack on the hitch and raised the body until the running boards were level (16" front and rear) then took measurements and got 14" in the front and 13" in the rear. Now...let's assume this is how the truck rolled off the showroom floor since who really knows what it was. If Downey's springs are 1.5" of lift (and I'm assuming that's from a stock stance) that would put the back up to 14.5". But...see the effect of raising or lowering the back has on the front, I should expect to see another drop in the front of possibly .5" making it 13.5". Keep in mind that the rear fenders actually hang an inch lower than the front's which makes things 2" higher in the rear.
I suspect it's different interpretations of leveling a vehicle. If you really want a level truck and have equal gaps between the tires and fenders in the front and rear, you'll have to cut the fenders because that is the design of the vehicle.

CoedNaked

LIke I said earlier - crank the torsion bars no more than 1/2" and go get the lift springs installed and I think you'll be fine.

One of the reasons 3rd gens, in my opinion, look better than 2nd gens, is because as you glance accross the side of the truck towards the rear bumper, the rear bumper starts a little higher naturally which also doesn't give that saggy look right off of the bat without potentially being saggy. What makes the sagging look worse on 2nd gens, is as you look at the side profile of the truck, and glance towards the section where the rear bumper starts (the bumpers on 2nd and 3rd gen aren't the same obviously, but they are a similar design), it is slightly lower designed than where the 3rd gen would be. To make up for this, I think it helps to have the rear riding just slightly higher than the front. It'll look more levle, and it'll be more level. I've seen 2nd gens with the gap in the front and rear wheel wells the same. And even then, due to the bumper thing I mentioned above, the rear still looked a little more saggish. Where as a 3rd gen with a higher bumper, with the same wheel well gap, didn't look saggish.

Just trust me on this Jim, if you leave the rear just slightly higher than the front, I think you will like the overall look of your 4runner. It will not, due to the slightly lower hanging rear bumper when compared to 3rd gens, have that muscle car stance you don't like. It will have a more rugged, expedition (best word I could come up with) type stance to it. I think you will honestly like it more than you think you will.

CoedNaked

Oh, and please take some before and after photos too!

sprocket_jim

Thanks Coed...I think that's the plan. 1/2" on the front....new springs on the back. Now, if I can just figure out how everyone is posting pictures into the forum, I'll get some up. Thanks!

sprocket_jim

Nevermind....I see it under the advanced tab. Here's about the only picture I have of the Runner at this time. Of course, the boat hitched to the back isn't helping the look right now either I'll snap some before the work starts tomorrow.

Funk_Runner

Sprocket Jim...

I installed the Downey HD springs about a year ago. The ride height increased by 2.5"... it was sagging quite a bit. (Looked like yours) I run 285's no problem with no torsion bar adjustment. I have been considering doing the same thing you are talking about with an alignment and the recall work. I went and talked to the service manager where I would be taking the 4runner and talked to him about the torsion adj. and the alignment. He said they are obligated to set the toe, but not necessarily the camber (which is thrown off by adjusting the t bars) in case the adj. bolts are frozen or something.

I am not going to chance it.

I just went and checked. My front still sits 3/8 of an inch higher. Check it out.


When I tow my 16' camper, the rear sags maybe 3/4 of an inch (if that). The springs are really, really stiff!

--Now if I could only find someone to weld my Stubbs sliders on....

sprocket_jim

Looks good Funk!

sprocket_jim

Update...after a couple weeks of ordering parts, lining up alignment with Toyota and getting the springs installed, things look great. I'll need to get some pictures up after work today. I ended up going with Downey HD coils, Bilstens up front and Doech-Tech in the rears. We cranked the front up .5" and I think the ride and look are what I was trying to achieve. Now...maybe some bigger tires are next to fill the added gap in the wheel-wells. Thanks for all the input guys.

CoedNaked

Good to hear, looking forward to some pics of the final product.

Why didn't you get Bilsteins in the rear too just of curiousity? I got Bilsteins on all 4 corners and they rock.

sprocket_jim

In hindsight I probably should have. It was basically a sales pitch. Softer shocks in the rear yaddy yaddy yadda. I thought about it afterwards but the order was already in the mail so I went with it. At this point, I think they're fine. The ride is a little more truck-like (to my liking) but not jarring.

I didn't get to the pics tonight but I will definately tomorrow.

sprocket_jim

There is a before and after pic at http://www.golpost.com/both.gif

I should probably try and match the shot a little better.

CoedNaked

Man it looks like you just did a 1" body lift. It still has a minor "sag" look to it maybe b/c the rear squats a little still in the after shot.