No Start! Key in, click, no crank. Help me diagnose wiring/starter. Contacts replaced
10-20-2012, 01:55 PM
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No Start! Key in, click, no crank. Help me diagnose wiring/starter. Contacts replaced
Ah the notorious no start issue. Basically when I try to start my 1995 4Runner V6, it would intermittently not start. I hear relays clicking, but no crank. Happens intermittently and I would have to whack the starter to get it going. Now, it just wont start at all. I have already replaced the starter contacts and even the plunger. Still, same problem. Please read my diagnosis below:
Doing some further diagnostics here. I disconnected the solenoid wire and measured the voltage when cranking to see if there is a big enough voltage drop such that maybe the solenoid is not getting enough voltage. I measure 11.60 V. The battery's open circuit voltage is 12.30 V. So roughly a 1V drop...maybe the hot shot starter mod would help....
Next, I take a wire and plug it in directly to the solenoid input on the starter. I put the car key in the "ON" position and then take the other end of the wire and put it directly on the battery positive terminal. I see a minor spark, but no crank from the starter. I would have thought that when you apply power to the solenoid directly, the starter should crank? Does this indicate a possible issue with the starter itself and not the wiring?
Can anyone help and suggest what I can do further? I am thinking of doing the hot shot starter mod (basically setup a relay to directly give +12V to the starter solenoid, thereby bypassing any voltage drop in the ignition wiring. But if I have already tried giving the solenoid +12v directly with a wire and it still didnt start, will this mod even accomplish anything? I am thinking since my starter used to require a good whack to start, that something is wrong inside the starter. Is there anything else in the starter that could be serviced? My contacts and plunger have already been replaced. Perhaps I could lube the plunger?
I need help guys!!!! I have already read most of the threads here on starter issues so I need new ideas to try now. I would hate to replace the entire starter because it is a b*tch to get out. I dont even know how I would take the starter off. I replaced the contacts and plunger with the starter basically angled in awkward positions while still in the engine bay.
Doing some further diagnostics here. I disconnected the solenoid wire and measured the voltage when cranking to see if there is a big enough voltage drop such that maybe the solenoid is not getting enough voltage. I measure 11.60 V. The battery's open circuit voltage is 12.30 V. So roughly a 1V drop...maybe the hot shot starter mod would help....
Next, I take a wire and plug it in directly to the solenoid input on the starter. I put the car key in the "ON" position and then take the other end of the wire and put it directly on the battery positive terminal. I see a minor spark, but no crank from the starter. I would have thought that when you apply power to the solenoid directly, the starter should crank? Does this indicate a possible issue with the starter itself and not the wiring?
Can anyone help and suggest what I can do further? I am thinking of doing the hot shot starter mod (basically setup a relay to directly give +12V to the starter solenoid, thereby bypassing any voltage drop in the ignition wiring. But if I have already tried giving the solenoid +12v directly with a wire and it still didnt start, will this mod even accomplish anything? I am thinking since my starter used to require a good whack to start, that something is wrong inside the starter. Is there anything else in the starter that could be serviced? My contacts and plunger have already been replaced. Perhaps I could lube the plunger?
I need help guys!!!! I have already read most of the threads here on starter issues so I need new ideas to try now. I would hate to replace the entire starter because it is a b*tch to get out. I dont even know how I would take the starter off. I replaced the contacts and plunger with the starter basically angled in awkward positions while still in the engine bay.
10-20-2012, 03:07 PM
#2
[QUOTE=nobb;51988396]
Have your load tested your battery?
I take a wire and plug it in directly to the solenoid input on the starter. I put the car key in the "ON" position and then take the other end of the wire and put it directly on the battery positive terminal. I see a minor spark, but no crank from the starter. I would have thought that when you apply power to the solenoid directly, the starter should crank? Does this indicate a possible issue with the starter itself and not the wiring? [QUOTE]
Good troubleshooting step!
Assuming your battery is good...
The hot shot will not help with this particular problem because what you did is exactly what the hot shot does- send 12V directly to solenoid coil, bypassing ignition wiring resistance.
On good system:
When you connected batt+ directly to solenoid terminal:
Good solenoid should click,
Solenoid contacts would complete circuit from thick battery battery cable going to one side of contact to other side connected to starter motor winding.
Starter should turn.
If solenoid does not click...
Is your solenoid terminal clean?
With batt+ directly connected, measure current through wire. Should be around 12Amps (in case of 22RE).
If no current, that means your solenoid is not energizing. Could be bad solenoid, too? Measured resistance of solenoid coil? Measure this between terminal where you connected wire to body of solenoid.
If you're getting some decent current through solenoid (spark indicates you are), yet it's not clicking, yes could also be stuck plunger. You should also hear a hum (meaning solenoid struggling to move plunger). Cleaning and lubricating would not hurt.
If your solenoid clicked, contacts should have sent 12V to starter motor. That is if your thick battery cable is good and solenoid contacts really work well. How well are contacts working after replacement? Trust but verify. Solenoid should have two big terminals; one goes directly to battery plus, the other to starter motor. When solenoid clicks, measure voltage where terminal goes to starter motor. IF you get no voltage there, that means contacts are still not closing.
If you get +12V where terminal connects to starter motor, yet no action from starter, then possibly a bad starter. Couple of things you could do but would require removing the starter. Post what you have done further then will talk more details.
Good luck.
Have your load tested your battery?
I take a wire and plug it in directly to the solenoid input on the starter. I put the car key in the "ON" position and then take the other end of the wire and put it directly on the battery positive terminal. I see a minor spark, but no crank from the starter. I would have thought that when you apply power to the solenoid directly, the starter should crank? Does this indicate a possible issue with the starter itself and not the wiring? [QUOTE]
Good troubleshooting step!
I am thinking of doing the hot shot starter mod (basically setup a relay to directly give +12V to the starter solenoid,.. my starter used to require a good whack to start, that something is wrong inside the starter. Is there anything else in the starter that could be serviced? My contacts and plunger have already been replaced. Perhaps I could lube the plunger?
The hot shot will not help with this particular problem because what you did is exactly what the hot shot does- send 12V directly to solenoid coil, bypassing ignition wiring resistance.
On good system:
When you connected batt+ directly to solenoid terminal:
Good solenoid should click,
Solenoid contacts would complete circuit from thick battery battery cable going to one side of contact to other side connected to starter motor winding.
Starter should turn.
If solenoid does not click...
Is your solenoid terminal clean?
With batt+ directly connected, measure current through wire. Should be around 12Amps (in case of 22RE).
If no current, that means your solenoid is not energizing. Could be bad solenoid, too? Measured resistance of solenoid coil? Measure this between terminal where you connected wire to body of solenoid.
If you're getting some decent current through solenoid (spark indicates you are), yet it's not clicking, yes could also be stuck plunger. You should also hear a hum (meaning solenoid struggling to move plunger). Cleaning and lubricating would not hurt.
If your solenoid clicked, contacts should have sent 12V to starter motor. That is if your thick battery cable is good and solenoid contacts really work well. How well are contacts working after replacement? Trust but verify. Solenoid should have two big terminals; one goes directly to battery plus, the other to starter motor. When solenoid clicks, measure voltage where terminal goes to starter motor. IF you get no voltage there, that means contacts are still not closing.
If you get +12V where terminal connects to starter motor, yet no action from starter, then possibly a bad starter. Couple of things you could do but would require removing the starter. Post what you have done further then will talk more details.
Good luck.
10-20-2012, 04:41 PM
#3
If you have not checked or replaced your ground cables now would be a good time.
having a bad ground will cause those same symptoms
Take your jumper cables take the negative and get a good ground as close to the starter as possible. With a good connection on the battery as well.
Now use a jumper wire and energize the starter solenoid making sure to have the truck in neutral or park.
Another thing to look at is the clutch safety switch or neutral safety switch for burnt contacts or loose connections.
Good luck
having a bad ground will cause those same symptoms
Take your jumper cables take the negative and get a good ground as close to the starter as possible. With a good connection on the battery as well.
Now use a jumper wire and energize the starter solenoid making sure to have the truck in neutral or park.
Another thing to look at is the clutch safety switch or neutral safety switch for burnt contacts or loose connections.
Good luck
10-20-2012, 05:07 PM
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RAD4Runner: Thanks for the detailed tips! It's definitely not my battery because I had a battery charger hooked up in crank mode (75 amp supply) and it still didnt work.
I will definitely try to test the solenoid resistance. Since I connected a wire directly from the +12V battery to the solenoid and saw a small spark, that might indicate that perhaps the solenoid is not all bad? Perhaps there is a stuck armature linkage inside? The power wire as well as the internals have been cleaned as best as I can. Admittedly though, the solenoid wire I did not really clean because it's nearly impossible to sandpaper those connections.
Basically right now the problem is narrowed down to parts within the starter itself, or the solenoid connection. The reason why I say this is because whacking the starter used to fix it temporarily. I have tried to wiggle the solenoid wire a bit, but that didn't seem to affect the no-start. If my worst fears are confirmed, then I might have to replace the whole starter motor.
Now that begs the question....how do I get this sucker out? No matter how I angle it, I cannot seem to get the starter out. Do you disconnect the fuel lines and pull the starter out from the side, or do you remove some steering linkages and drop it out from the front?
I will definitely try to test the solenoid resistance. Since I connected a wire directly from the +12V battery to the solenoid and saw a small spark, that might indicate that perhaps the solenoid is not all bad? Perhaps there is a stuck armature linkage inside? The power wire as well as the internals have been cleaned as best as I can. Admittedly though, the solenoid wire I did not really clean because it's nearly impossible to sandpaper those connections.
Basically right now the problem is narrowed down to parts within the starter itself, or the solenoid connection. The reason why I say this is because whacking the starter used to fix it temporarily. I have tried to wiggle the solenoid wire a bit, but that didn't seem to affect the no-start. If my worst fears are confirmed, then I might have to replace the whole starter motor.
Now that begs the question....how do I get this sucker out? No matter how I angle it, I cannot seem to get the starter out. Do you disconnect the fuel lines and pull the starter out from the side, or do you remove some steering linkages and drop it out from the front?
10-20-2012, 09:35 PM
#5
I will definitely try to test the solenoid resistance. Since I connected ca wire directly from the +12V battery to the solenoid and saw a small spark, that might indicate that perhaps the solenoid is not all bad? Perhaps there is a stuck armature linkage inside?
The power wire as well as the internals have been cleaned as best as I can. Admittedly though, the solenoid wire I did not really clean because it's nearly impossible to sandpaper those connections.
Basically right now the problem is narrowed down to parts within the starter itself, or the solenoid connection. The reason why I say this is because whacking the starter used to fix it temporarily. I have tried to wiggle the solenoid wire a bit, but that didn't seem to affect the no-start. If my worst fears are confirmed, then I might have to replace the whole starter motor.
Absolutely you don't see/hear/feel any solenoid humming or if solenoid clicks of starter struggling to turn,
Now that begs the question....how do I get this sucker out? No matter how I angle it, I cannot seem to get the starter out. Do you disconnect the fuel lines and pull the starter out from the side, or do you remove some steering linkages and drop it out from the front?[/QUOTE]
I hope other 2nd gen owners could chime in about that.
10-22-2012, 09:37 AM
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SUCCESS! I got the starter motor out. The trick was to take off the exhaust heat shield (only 2 bolts). It's a small part, but gave me just enough room to take the starter motor out.
Strangely, when I disassembled the solenoid, my plunger had signs of arcing on the copper contacts. I had just replaced the plunger and contacts a week ago. Not sure what this means.
I measured the resistance between the starter chassis and the solenoid input. Very close to 0 ohms. The bearings on the motor also seem to be shot so I'm just going to buy a new starter and get this over with. Hopefully that will be the end of my starting issues. We will see...
Strangely, when I disassembled the solenoid, my plunger had signs of arcing on the copper contacts. I had just replaced the plunger and contacts a week ago. Not sure what this means.
I measured the resistance between the starter chassis and the solenoid input. Very close to 0 ohms. The bearings on the motor also seem to be shot so I'm just going to buy a new starter and get this over with. Hopefully that will be the end of my starting issues. We will see...
Last edited by nobb; 10-22-2012 at 09:42 AM.
10-22-2012, 10:44 AM
#7
my plunger had signs of arcing on the copper contacts.
The bearings on the motor also seem to be shot
I measured the resistance between the starter chassis and the solenoid input. Very close to 0 ohms.
Looks your on the right track- replacing the starter. Pls keep us posted.
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10-22-2012, 02:16 PM
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Oops, forgot to take pics. The heat shield is located right above the starter motor and clamps around the exhaust tube. It's just a piece of metal held by 2x 10mm bolts. It should be very obvious when you see it. Once this piece is off, the starter motor comes right out EASILY!
I will take back my comment on the arcing. Even on the rebuilt starter, I noticed the plunger had arc marks. I would totally recommend getting a rebuilt starter rather than the typical advice of just changing the contacts. A variety of other things can go wrong inside the starter (like the shot bearings in mine) so you might as well just replace the whole thing for piece of mind. That way it wont be necessary to go back in and waste time trying to diagnose problems like I did.
So far so good. New starter installed and no problems at all. Only time will tell if this holds up.
I will take back my comment on the arcing. Even on the rebuilt starter, I noticed the plunger had arc marks. I would totally recommend getting a rebuilt starter rather than the typical advice of just changing the contacts. A variety of other things can go wrong inside the starter (like the shot bearings in mine) so you might as well just replace the whole thing for piece of mind. That way it wont be necessary to go back in and waste time trying to diagnose problems like I did.
So far so good. New starter installed and no problems at all. Only time will tell if this holds up.
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