No Spark - 91 Runner 3VZE
10-15-2010, 09:42 AM
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No Spark - 91 Runner 3VZE
Well here it is - I have gotten so much help from all the gurus here at yota tech I figured I would ask for help again.
The short version is that I need a VAFM, Igniter and a coil inorder to do some testing.
The long version is this - be warned it is a bit confusing.
About a month ago my 91 Runner 3VZE left me sitting at starbucks - dead as a doorknob. I did some parking lot diagnostics and realized I was not getting fuel. Basically I walked to the parts store 100 yds down the road and bought so carb and choke cleaner. I then pulled a hose from the intake tube (silencer removal mod performed) sprayed in some go go juice and proceeded to crank. The engine roared to life and as soon as it burned up all the carb spray it of course died again.
Certain it was a fuel pump that had finally given up the ghost (I had been noticed a long crank condition before it would start for a couple months) I called a buddy and we towed it the 30 miles back to my house.
In his wisdom he asked me if I was sure it was fuel so I demonstrated my master technician skills by doing the carb cleaner trick and it ran and just as I was about to say "see, it dies when the carb cleaner burns off" it kept running. Then it kept running some more. Well I had a pesky intermittent check engine light for some time and so I figured I had better resolve that issue before I went any further.
So the codes that were in the puter were O2 sensor, an VAFM and an intake air temp sensor code (which actually means VAFM). So I cleared the codes and replaced the O2 sensor. Yay!!! no more check engine light and no more codes (the VAFM codes I assume must have bee from when I damaged and replaced the VAFM about 2 or 3 years ago and I just never reset the codes.
The runner runs like a champ for about 3 or 4 weeks. Starts great, no long crank, even gets better mileage and seems to have a little more pep in her 33X12.50 step.
Then out of nowhere last friday I go out to start the truck and nothing - crank crank crank - no start no start and then a little more no starting followed by me, a pastor, wondering if swearing at it will work or if I should just call my Priest friend over and do an exorcism. Well I figured neither would do me any good so I started trouble shooting.
First I checked fuel pressure and found -(because of my modified injector rail bolt with a shrader valve in it) that I have great fuel pressure. So now that I had to showers one with water and one with gasoline I was feeling nice and clean so i figured i should check for spark.
This was easy, pull the coil wire, lay it on the fender, crank engine and watch the microscopic lightning storm. Not a cloud in the sky and no lightning from the coil wire.
Figured it must be the coil so I grabbed the laptop and the trusty FSM (which I downloaded with the help of my friends here at yotatech) and whipped out the mulitimer. Coil checks out great with the resistance almost exactly in the center of the rang for secondary resistance and near the high end of the primary but still with in range.
Following the FSM I moved on to testing the pick up coils in the distributor and even though my connecter and distributor looks different than what the manual describes I was still able to determine that the Air Gap is right on and so is the resistance of the pickup coils
Moving right along and estesting the coil I come to the line in the FSM that says "Try Another Igniter" I think great - I'll go buy one and try that. until I realized my local parts store wanted 379 dollars for it.
Well the more I read and researched I found a post on here that showed how to test the igniter and such so I followed the procedure and determine that the coil was bad (tap test on the battery cable - black and blue wire and blah blah blah). No one local had and exact fit coil so I used a universal coil that according to Standards website would work. Took it home wired it all in and nothing. CRAP again consider swearing and exorcisms until I realized that I had forgotten to connect the connector for the pick up coils in the distributor. Connected and tryed again. YAY!!! microsopic lightning on the fender and it was cooking. Plugged it in and the engine roared to life.
But there was spark flying everywhere becasue the coil wire wasn't the right one so I shut it off and went to the parts store to get the proper coil wire
I installed the coil wire and it was running, it was beautiful, like listening to Susan Boyle for the first time in a youtube video - well actually not so much it was running but was rough and sputtery a lot like william hung on American idol. Then after 30 seconds it apparently choked on its own vomit and died and would no longer start.
Has had no fire since. the only glimmer of hope I have is that when I crank the engine and let off the key I get a snap or to of spark as it quits cranking. So I figured maybe this is the ignition switch
I went to the starter and fumbled around like a teenager after prom making out with his girlfriend. After finally touching the right place and scaring myself once or twice I go the engine spinning witht the same results crank crank crank - nothing nothing and a little more nothing.
Then comes more research and I find out that the VAFM will sometimes stop spark from occuring and I don't even want to get into that whole tirade as to why toyota would do such a thing. But it happens so here I sit. Wondering if I should go buy 200 dollar VAFM 300 dollar Ignitier and 100 dollar coil and hope I get lucky - unlike the teenager at prom - or should I ask all of you if you have any advice.
Or at the very least if you know anyone in my area that may have these three parts that I may try one at a time until I find the right one and know what to buy. i am lost and could use any help you all could give.
Oh and one more thing, one guy I talked to suggested I try freezing the ignitor for about a half an hour and then try strating it again because the igniters or so snesitive to heat - especially if they are failing. Is this true or do I need to send Adam and Jamie over to bust his myth?
thanks for listening to me ramble and for all the help i am certain to get.
Pastor Brad
The short version is that I need a VAFM, Igniter and a coil inorder to do some testing.
The long version is this - be warned it is a bit confusing.
About a month ago my 91 Runner 3VZE left me sitting at starbucks - dead as a doorknob. I did some parking lot diagnostics and realized I was not getting fuel. Basically I walked to the parts store 100 yds down the road and bought so carb and choke cleaner. I then pulled a hose from the intake tube (silencer removal mod performed) sprayed in some go go juice and proceeded to crank. The engine roared to life and as soon as it burned up all the carb spray it of course died again.
Certain it was a fuel pump that had finally given up the ghost (I had been noticed a long crank condition before it would start for a couple months) I called a buddy and we towed it the 30 miles back to my house.
In his wisdom he asked me if I was sure it was fuel so I demonstrated my master technician skills by doing the carb cleaner trick and it ran and just as I was about to say "see, it dies when the carb cleaner burns off" it kept running. Then it kept running some more. Well I had a pesky intermittent check engine light for some time and so I figured I had better resolve that issue before I went any further.
So the codes that were in the puter were O2 sensor, an VAFM and an intake air temp sensor code (which actually means VAFM). So I cleared the codes and replaced the O2 sensor. Yay!!! no more check engine light and no more codes (the VAFM codes I assume must have bee from when I damaged and replaced the VAFM about 2 or 3 years ago and I just never reset the codes.
The runner runs like a champ for about 3 or 4 weeks. Starts great, no long crank, even gets better mileage and seems to have a little more pep in her 33X12.50 step.
Then out of nowhere last friday I go out to start the truck and nothing - crank crank crank - no start no start and then a little more no starting followed by me, a pastor, wondering if swearing at it will work or if I should just call my Priest friend over and do an exorcism. Well I figured neither would do me any good so I started trouble shooting.
First I checked fuel pressure and found -(because of my modified injector rail bolt with a shrader valve in it) that I have great fuel pressure. So now that I had to showers one with water and one with gasoline I was feeling nice and clean so i figured i should check for spark.
This was easy, pull the coil wire, lay it on the fender, crank engine and watch the microscopic lightning storm. Not a cloud in the sky and no lightning from the coil wire.
Figured it must be the coil so I grabbed the laptop and the trusty FSM (which I downloaded with the help of my friends here at yotatech) and whipped out the mulitimer. Coil checks out great with the resistance almost exactly in the center of the rang for secondary resistance and near the high end of the primary but still with in range.
Following the FSM I moved on to testing the pick up coils in the distributor and even though my connecter and distributor looks different than what the manual describes I was still able to determine that the Air Gap is right on and so is the resistance of the pickup coils
Moving right along and estesting the coil I come to the line in the FSM that says "Try Another Igniter" I think great - I'll go buy one and try that. until I realized my local parts store wanted 379 dollars for it.
Well the more I read and researched I found a post on here that showed how to test the igniter and such so I followed the procedure and determine that the coil was bad (tap test on the battery cable - black and blue wire and blah blah blah). No one local had and exact fit coil so I used a universal coil that according to Standards website would work. Took it home wired it all in and nothing. CRAP again consider swearing and exorcisms until I realized that I had forgotten to connect the connector for the pick up coils in the distributor. Connected and tryed again. YAY!!! microsopic lightning on the fender and it was cooking. Plugged it in and the engine roared to life.
But there was spark flying everywhere becasue the coil wire wasn't the right one so I shut it off and went to the parts store to get the proper coil wire
I installed the coil wire and it was running, it was beautiful, like listening to Susan Boyle for the first time in a youtube video - well actually not so much it was running but was rough and sputtery a lot like william hung on American idol. Then after 30 seconds it apparently choked on its own vomit and died and would no longer start.
Has had no fire since. the only glimmer of hope I have is that when I crank the engine and let off the key I get a snap or to of spark as it quits cranking. So I figured maybe this is the ignition switch
I went to the starter and fumbled around like a teenager after prom making out with his girlfriend. After finally touching the right place and scaring myself once or twice I go the engine spinning witht the same results crank crank crank - nothing nothing and a little more nothing.
Then comes more research and I find out that the VAFM will sometimes stop spark from occuring and I don't even want to get into that whole tirade as to why toyota would do such a thing. But it happens so here I sit. Wondering if I should go buy 200 dollar VAFM 300 dollar Ignitier and 100 dollar coil and hope I get lucky - unlike the teenager at prom - or should I ask all of you if you have any advice.
Or at the very least if you know anyone in my area that may have these three parts that I may try one at a time until I find the right one and know what to buy. i am lost and could use any help you all could give.
Oh and one more thing, one guy I talked to suggested I try freezing the ignitor for about a half an hour and then try strating it again because the igniters or so snesitive to heat - especially if they are failing. Is this true or do I need to send Adam and Jamie over to bust his myth?
thanks for listening to me ramble and for all the help i am certain to get.
Pastor Brad
10-15-2010, 11:46 PM
#5
Registered User
The VAFM has two basic tasks.
1.) It will send a voltage to the computer that is proportional to the position of the flapper vane inside. the temp of the air flow here also comes into play. Some form of this voltage must be present at the computer or there will be no spark generated.
2.) There is a small set of relay points inside of it that are mechanically connected to the movable vane.The points will close as soon as any air starts to flow through it. This is the circuit that keeps the fuel pump energized while there is air flow through the MAF.
Based on experience gathered in a previous life, my guess would be the VAFM.
I have a spare that I got at a wrecking yard for $50
I don't leave home without it.
Art
1.) It will send a voltage to the computer that is proportional to the position of the flapper vane inside. the temp of the air flow here also comes into play. Some form of this voltage must be present at the computer or there will be no spark generated.
2.) There is a small set of relay points inside of it that are mechanically connected to the movable vane.The points will close as soon as any air starts to flow through it. This is the circuit that keeps the fuel pump energized while there is air flow through the MAF.
Based on experience gathered in a previous life, my guess would be the VAFM.
I have a spare that I got at a wrecking yard for $50
I don't leave home without it.
Art
10-16-2010, 02:31 AM
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Very funny post!
I believe you have a VAFM problem as well. Try your local pick & pull (good luck) before you pay the dealer that much. You state you replaced the VAFM 2 or 3 years ago; was it new? If so, then I'd suspect the WIRING to the VAFM first....
I believe you have a VAFM problem as well. Try your local pick & pull (good luck) before you pay the dealer that much. You state you replaced the VAFM 2 or 3 years ago; was it new? If so, then I'd suspect the WIRING to the VAFM first....
04-25-2011, 08:03 AM
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Any resolution to this issue? I've got a similar random no spark issue on my '91 3VZE. Crank Crank Crank lots of raw fuel dumping out the exhaust, but zero spark when testing with a sparkplug or timing light.
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