dcg9381

MS has a similiar concept that allows you to move away from MAP values, usually used with big cams when vacuum becomes an issue. I'm honestly suprised you're having problems with vac.

Might talk to one of the other SDS guys and see what they say.

I'm up and running - no problems, other than a downipipe that is hitting the frame on low idle, which is going to be a pain to fix.

Mine has been running for quite a while - this is my second SteedSpeed manifold, I tested one of the prototypes. I see that they're on LC's site now.

I need to get Leen a dyno run.

saitotiktmdog

The tp idle parameter and idle fuel value helped out tons. It now idles real nice. I think the reason that it may have such low vacuum is becasue of the higher compression. It starts building boost almost imediatly and I hit full boost at like 2000 to 2500 rpms. It still goes rich right away but then it gets within a usable range of AFR. Around High 13 to 15 according to data logger. Then I can adjust the rpm values in the ranges that it takes the afr and start to get the values right. I think I will lean towards running it a little rich just to be on the safe side. Say around 13.9 or so. I think now I need to adjust the map values at the lower map values that correspond to the 1000 to 2000 maybe 2500 rpm range to try and lean out the lower range some. I am impressed with the power thus far. I still need to turn down the boost but I am trying to figure out my boost conroller. When I get it running well I will try and find a way to post my fuel map and ignition timing values. I was not able to find any good examples for a 22r on boost and sds which would have been nice and probably have saved some time. But I think I am figuring it out on my own and with a little research and some help from Ross at sds. This will hopefully help out anyone else down the road who may be in a similar situation I will post my values as well as my mods to help out any future turbo sds 22re motor people.

saitotiktmdog

I will post some more pictures of my truck when I get a chance also. I spent so much time lately staring under the hood that I forgot how cool it looks from a distance. Well, at least I think so.

Greg_Canada

13.9!!!! Thats super lean!!!!
Shoot for a 12-12.5:1 ratio when you are in boost! Or that thing is going to go BOOM!

saitotiktmdog

Thanks for the advice. I will keep that in mind.

dcg9381

There is an SDS map posted up on the 22rte-trucks forum - see the tuning section. There are also megasquirt target air/fuel ratio maps - let me know if you have problems reading them. Jeff Mosk's AFR map is posted also.

If you're tuning to 13.9 under boost, do some reading. Under boost, that's pretty lean.. Low boost, I'd say you need to be in the 12-13 AFR range and get progressively more rich from there. For peak boost probably 10-12 AFR.

I run two tools for tuning these trucks, outside the obvious wideband:
1) KnockSense
2) An EGT gauge - to know when I'm pushing my luck with timing.

saitotiktmdog

I have seen the maps on the 22rte website but I don't know how to translate those maps to the sds system. From talking with Ross at sds I think I have figured out a lot of the system stuff as well as why my vacuum was so low. Wrong vacuum source for the map sensor. Now that I have a air fuel ratio to shoot for I can adjust for that. Ross also said not to go lower than 18 degrees of total timing under full load. So I will make sure I dont do that. I wouldn't mind some help with timing, but I think I can get the afr figured out. I am just not sure how I should step down the timing and retard at each interval.

dcg9381

Email Ben Brown: bitafh@gmail.com

He has SDS on a turbo mid-compression truck.

The maps may confuse you if SDS measures in inHG. Most maps are posted in KPA. You can convert KPA to inHG and vice versa - it might make the maps make sense.

Here's one of the maps that Ben shared with me that has both values.. Note this is below the boost range - so there are additional values to take into consideration, but it might be a good starting point:




Above 100KPa (going into boost) you're going to back out 1-2 degrees of timing per psi of boost pressure. Down to a minimum value - but this also means that you have to listen for detonation, get a detonation can, or install something like Knocksense. If you drop too much timing, your EGTs spike sky high and you'll damage things... I say this because I know. That's why the SDS guys are saying no less than 18 degrees total timing.

Now I drop below 18 degrees total timing, so does Jeff, so does Ben - but it's above 7psi where we drop that much timing. If you drop that much timing early, you will have issues.

Also, your air fuel ratio is going to vary quite a bit... Here is one of my posted timing/fuel/air/fuel maps. Just remember that 100KPA = 0 psi, 150 KPA = 7.35 psi for reference.

saitotiktmdog

I will study these and see what I can figure out. My system has a knock sensor and it will automatically retard the timing when the engine begins to knock. I can set how much the retard is. If I remember correctly I have it at around 4 or 8 degrees.

saitotiktmdog

Well after talking with ross at racetech he said I should shoot for 12.5 to 1 to 13 to 1 AFR under full load and as much timing as possible without getting any knock. What do you guys think?

dcg9381

Can you read the tuning data that I've posted above? Have any questions?


I think you'll have better luck with this question on the turbo truck forum - I'd guess not too many here have tuned a turbo truck.

Here's the rub:
Peak power is made around 13.3 AFR, which is pretty lean for a forced induction vehicle.

In general, rich is safer - it helps cool the mixture and prevents pre-detonation. Go leaner (to about 13.3) and you'll make more power assuming you don't detonate and can operate at particular spark timing.

I've got a "factory" turbo car -an SRT-4. It's notorious for being tuned conservatively from the factory. On a dyno, stock, under 14 psi of boost at in the higher RPM range, it can be as rich as 10 AFR. Some people take advantage of this and install a little device called a MAP clamp - fixing the amount of manifold pressure the ECU sees. This leans out the mixture above this boost level, and the cars produce more power. Works well, until you go too lean, detonate, and make your motor a paperweight.


I'd ask Rich how many 22RE motors he's tuned in particular. This motor is old, it's not a modern Honda, and it doesn't perform nearly as well.
I'd ask you what "full load" is - I understand it's WOT, but what boost level are you trying for? I'd say at moderate boost levels (sub 8-9 psi), this is probably reasonable advice. When you're pushing the envelope - approaching the limits of fuel, compression, and boost, you need to go more rich to be safe. Jeff Mosk actually drops his AFR in to the 9 range at high boost levels, pump gas, and very retarded timing - note I'm not recommending this as it doesn't work well in my truck, but it's one data point. Jeff's truck has been professionally tuned twice.

My advice is to have a look at the published fuel/timing maps, check the timing settings, and make some educated guesses. Generally speaking, the settings you're talking about are fine when used for moderate driving. I'd try to be "safer" at higher boost levels - more rich than that, in the 11-12 AFR range.

Start with a conservative tune and then pull back from there. If you're going leaner, simply adjust the fuel settings first. Adjust one thing at a time and see how it goes.. I assume SDS can log or otherwise indicated detonation?

saitotiktmdog

yeah I should probably post more ont he 22re turbo website but I am trying to cut down on the number of forums I am a member of. I spend too much time on here as it is LOL. Thanks for all the help. I will be driving conservatively. I don't race or anything. The only time that I would get alot of high rpm use is sometimes 4wheeling you have to gun the engine quite a bit. Full load as Ross states I think means full boost and rpms that normally require full advance of 30 degrees or more. I only plan on running 7 psi max. Don't want to make my engine a paperweight.

dcg9381

You should never have a tuning condition possible where you're peaking boost, under full load, and have 30 degrees of timing. 30 degrees of timing a 0 psi - maybe...

If you're new to turbo tuning the guys who have done this successfully for years generally indicate that you take your 0 psi (no boost), WOT - wide open throttle - timing, and start backing out 1-2 degrees per psi of boost.

To tune timing, I generally find a hill, climb that hill which loads the motor - try for 0 psi, stay out of the boost and target between 24-30 degrees of timing. I'm listening for knock and watching my knock sensor. Once I've got that "peak" timing value, back out 1-2 degrees per PSI down to some minimum.

You can also use high octane gas to give you a little margin to do rough tuning for higher RPM / higher boost regions.


Questions:
1) Whats your compression ratio?
2) How much boost are you running currently?

saitotiktmdog

Your right but what I meant was full load timing with retard. So if your highest timing is 32 degrees plus 7psi if that was the max psi but then also you have 10 degrees of retard it would be at 22 degrees of total timing. Thats what I was meaning. Yeah 30 degrees of timing under full boost would cause a large bang.

dcg9381

You get the idea.

Do you understand the timing maps as posted above? They're different than the way SDS does it.
What's your compression?
Whats your peak boost?
(sorry if I missed this information if posted before)

saitotiktmdog

I think I know how to read it. You find the rpm and then find the pressure and then find the box where the two rows cross. Kind of like a milage calculator in an atlas.

I have 9.5 t one compression pistons which according to previous compression checks comes out to about 175 pounds of compression per cylinder I believe. I have not done one on this engine but the last one before 4 feet of water sealed its fate was at that compression and this engine is the same setup. 7 psi is the max I will run. I am getting that at what seems like relatively low rpm ranges. 2500 to 300 is where peak boost is approximately reached. So far I havent been able to go past 3500 rpms for O2 logging becasue I run out of road or I hit fuel cut due to boost. Maybe I should raise the fuel cut or turn the boost down even more. I did a little bit of tuning last night. Timing starts out at 10 at low rpms then jumps up to 32 from about 1000 to 2500 I think. Not exactly sure as Idon't have my number with me here at work. I decided to try 1.5 degrees of retard per psi of boost. So at 7 psi that would be 10.5. I rounded up to 11 because you can only enter whole degree values. 6 psi would be in the 9 range. SDS system steps down with three paramaters per map range. Like would have 6.92 6.54 then 6.22 before going to the five range of map retard values. So I have 10 for the 6.92 range and then 9 in the 6.22 range roughly and s on down the line. For AFR I currently have 12.1 or so under full boost at about 3000 to 3500 rpm range which is probably where most of my driving will take place as I don't race or make a habit of reving my engine really high. So thats where I am at now. Roughly

saitotiktmdog

Here are some recent pictures.

Here is the new hood latch support bracket. Helps the hood shut easily.

Here is where it bolts to.

The nest two are of the boost gauge and the wide band afr guage.


Here is the ecm located under the dash above the glove box. And wide band logger



Here is my truck from the outside

saitotiktmdog

saitotiktmdog

I got a chance to do some more tuning. I think I am gettin the hang of it. I have the air fuel so that it idles around 14 and then progresses to 12.4 under full boost. It is not a nice smooth transition yet but I think with some more time I will be able to get it worked out nicely. It runs great and is a blast to drive.

Targetnut

You don't necessarily want a continuous progression to max rich. Ideally you want it to stay around 14.7 til til the manifold pressure exceeds what ever you have at normal cruise speed. then once you start to pull more load then you want that progression to come in.