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Hi all. So... I was driving my '87 4Runner to work (manual transmission), stopped at a stop sign, and when I tried to go forward again the engine just revved, no power to the wheels at all. I needed to get to work, so I had it towed to a mechanic I know. Now he's telling me that he thinks my clutch is burnt out, and wants to charge me quite a lot to pull the clutch and replace it. He does admit he might find something wrong with the transmission once he gets the clutch off, but says there's nothing he can do to test it further without removing the clutch.
My problem is, it really doesn't sound like the clutch to me. It wasn't slipping at all before this happened, and when it happened it happened all of a sudden, with no warning and no noise or anything else that I noticed.
If the transmission does need replacing I'm not sure if I can afford that, or if it's really worth the money to do... Does anyone have any idea what I might be looking at here? Or any thoughts on ways I might get a better idea without pulling the clutch?
When this happened, with your foot on the clutch, did the stick shift all the way over and up to first gear like normal? Or did it feel like it didn't move as much as normal?
If you turn the truck off, shift into a gear (first or reverse), then start the truck and see if it moves.
If it's bad hydraulics, you should get movement when starting in a gear with the truck off.
If it's a bad clutch (friction disc or loss of clamping force in pressure plate) then you would have limited movement of the shifter with the truck running. It won't fully go up into gear.
Also, does the pedal feel any different? How many miles? What motor? More details lets us give more info.
The going rate around my area for a clutch replacement on most models in my area is $600-700 just to give you an idea of what is probably a fair price. If the transmission was not giving any problems before, most likely is just the clutch. Fierohink has some great steps to see if it is clutch/hydraulics.
Sounds exactly like a clutch failure to me. And it is very expensive since the hole transmission has to come out of the truck.
I have had two fail with no little or no warning. One was going up a slight hill at 45 mph and out of no where it just started free reving as if I was pushing the clutch in. The second was going down a hill and went from working to slipping with any thing over a light touch on the throttle.
If you can physically put the truck into first gear and the clutch pedal feels normal then it's probably the clutch. I would definitely check your transfer case just to make sure it didn't some how get bumped between high and low range but other then that it's probably going to be expensive.
Went to pull out engine rpm rose the vehicle did not move .
Hydraulic Failure it would not have gone into gear without a fight .
Unless one of the pistons in the master or slave stuck causing the slave to be stuck in the extended position I have never seen this happen but it very well could
I am guessing the clutch pedal returned to the normal position not that the clutch bracket failed in a major way not allowing the piston to return.
While a major transmission failure might happen with no warning or noise
another thing might be the rear differential maybe a axle
Engage the hubs put it in 4 low see what happens
I am hoping your Mechanic eliminated all of these other failures
Some more info: 22RE engine (rebuild, quite a few years ago). Total miles: 281k. Not sure how many miles on the clutch.
I did have a chance to swing by the truck on my way to work this morning and do a couple of very quick tests. (Unfortunately I didn't see wyoming9's post first, so I didn't do those tests.) The transfer case was not in neutral. (Dang, I really was hoping that was it. Oh well, it was worth a try.) Pedal feels normal, and so does shifter, seems to move just as it always did, just no power. Shifting into a gear with the engine off, then starting the engine doesn't make any difference. I did notice a very faint sort of grinding sound when I shifted into 4th and reverse. Really, really minor, though.
I would pull the clutch myself, but I have some medical issues that make doing that kind of work not really a good idea, plus I really don't have anywhere to do it...
I doubt transmission failure. They usually dont go quietly. The fact that you hear/feel a little grinding means that the engine is spinning up the trans gears. Does it even try a bit to move? Put in gear, let clutch out and have someone look at the drive shaft. Is it turning? If not broken axel/pinion gear..... You may have oil on the clutch as well, blown engine rear main or trans input.
Well, it definitely wasn't the clutch. I thought my mechanic had agreed to try it in 4wd, but apparently we had a miscommunication, and he went ahead and replaced the clutch. When that didn't work he did try it in 4wd, and it drives ok in 4wd. He also had it driven while in 2wd, and he watched the driveshaft. He said the driveshaft turned whether it was in 4wd or 2wd.
So now he says it has to be either the transmission or the transfer case, but he doesn't know which. I'm reluctant to have him go any further until I know what it's going to cost, but he can't give me an idea what it will cost until he pulls it apart again... Tomorrow he's going to try get some more advice from another mechanic, and see if that helps at all. He did say he might be able to borrow a transfer case from a yard he knows, and put it in to see if it's the problem. But he'd still have to pull it all apart and put it back together again to find out.
If both driveshafts are turning, again IF, that kind of rules out the transmission and transfer case.
Provided the mechanic is telling the truth, the would mean the axles, diffs, or hubs (although there are no floating hubs in the rear) are the culprit. But the likelihood that your front and rear would blow at the same time, at a traffic light, while in 2wd is astronomically low.
I'm with Wyoming, I suspect the ring and pinion gear area.
At least you can drive in 4wd.
Quick test would be to lift both rear wheels. off the ground, and try to spin them by hand, no wait if you have a stock open diff only lift one tire and it should not spin while in 4wd and in gear.
As I read this sad tale, here are the facts we know.
1) in 2wd the vehicle does not move, but the rear drive shaft turns
2) in 4wd the vehicle does move and the rear driveshaft turns.
Taken together, I agree that the problem appears to be in the rear end. A broken axle, or a broken diff carrier is most likely. (actually, #1 is all you need to know to indict the rear end.)
This could have all been diagnosed without ever touching the clutch. Unless your mechanic has compromising photos of you, dump him immediately after this is over.
As I read this sad tale, here are the facts we know.
1) in 2wd the vehicle does not move, but the rear drive shaft turns
2) in 4wd the vehicle does move and the rear driveshaft turns.
Taken together, I agree that the problem appears to be in the rear end. A broken axle, or a broken diff carrier is most likely. (actually, #1 is all you need to know to indict the rear end.)
This could have all been diagnosed without ever touching the clutch. Unless your mechanic has compromising photos of you, dump him immediately after this is over.
I agree. You might pull your magnetic plug in the diff and see what kind of metal you see in there. If it's full of chunks you'll know that you have a problem back there that you'll need to address.
I’m having the same problem with my 79 pickup. Driveshafts turn when in 4wd but nothing in 2wd. Did you ever get this sorted out? I’ve never taken a diff apart and am wondering what to do next. Any help would really be appreciated, I just did an engine swap and this drivetrain problem has me stumped.
What do you mean by "nothing in 2wd"? Vehicle doesn't move? Drive shafts don't turn? There's a big difference in possible causes. We need all of the details to help you diagnose this.
Jack up one rear wheel and try to turn it with the vehicle in gear. It shouldn't turn. If you can turn it, does the drive shaft turn as well. If it does, the problem is in the tcase. If it doesn't, the problem is in the rear end.
Alright, so I did the 2wd test and the wheel spins as well as both front and rear driveshafts. They do not in 4wd.
on a possibly unrelated note, when the vehicle was delivered to me on the previous owners trailer he lost his ramps going down the freeway. He said we should just push it off and even though I protested he said “I’ve done it a million times” so we did it. And if course the crossmember landed on the lip of the trailer and high centered it. So we eventually got it off with four guys and some bottle jacks but it was a pretty hard hit. I’m not a 100% but I believe the truck drove briefly in 2wd when I went to look at it before purchasing, the tcase didn’t have the knob on it so I can’t say for sure but the hubs were unlocked and with some fresh gas down the carb it moved forward and reverse for a half a minute. Could the impact have broken something in the tcase? It only hit the crossmember but they are pretty closely connected. It also looks like my rear driveshaft was pulled/separated from itself (see pictures). Maybe it’s always been/looked like that but it looks like fresh grease where it might have separated and the truck was sitting for ten years prior. I’ve done a lot of engine stuff and some minor transmission stuff but the 4 wheel drivetrain isn’t something I’ve really gotten into yet.
what should I check next and sorry for the long post but really appreciate the help. I’ve scoured the internet but this isn’t a very popular problem. This part looks cleaner than the rest of the drivetrain.
That part you circled is a slip-joint built into the drive shaft, or propeller shaft, as Toyota calls it. There should be a grease-zert right on the thicker area right after where the u-joint is welded to the shaft. You can see it in the second picture.. If it's still factory, there may just be a small bolt that provides access for a grease gun with a rubber tip, but almost everyone puts grease zerts in all the bolt holes, as shown in these pictures. It's a lot easier, and more efficient when greasing the truck, to have a zert to plug onto and then pump grease.
Anywho, here's a picture of the shaft overall, and in the second pic, the area you're looking at in particular. The zerts aren't labeled, but are shown.
The slip joint allows for changing geometry in the off-road environment. It allows the drive shaft to get longer or shorter as the geometry between the rear differential, and the tcase, changes. It should be greased when you grease the u-joints. Just pump grease int it until it starts to come out of the slip area. When you've been keeping up on the scheduled greasing, it shouldn't take more than one or two pumps. With the truck having sat for so long, who knows what condition the grease is. I would make sure theres good, new grease in all the grease areas, including the u-joints, the double cardan, etc.
08-24-2016, 06:22 AM
