LC Engineering Turbo motor...disappointment?? - Page 2

Erik Beeman · 12-22-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaofnames

The old rule applies when you talk about larger displacement.

There is no replacement for displacement!

Its still a 4 banger, but it is larger, its going to be capable of putting out more power if its completely rebuilt.
Another thing to think about is torque/hp curves, not just peak numbers.

So what? That G54B block we use, people on his forum are making 400+hp out of them...Your right...in the long run, thousands and thousands of dollars later, that 2.6 will be able to put out more power...but a 2.4L should still be more than 197, being fully built on top of that

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stagger_lee · 12-22-2008, 06:59 PM

^^Agreed^^

With the turbo technology thats out there, you can pull some big numbers on little displacement as long as you have the bottom end to support. That little quote "There is no replacement for displacement!" that all the old timers use, doesn't totally apply so much anymore. I could have safely pulled 300awhp out of my little 2.0 suby for a little under $3k.

I think Abe mentioned earlier, that is a conservative tune on behalf of LCE, and they could pull quite a bit more from that set up. I would give them a call before you totally write them off. Its good stuff for sure.

scuba · 12-22-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

That's easy to say when you don't have to pony up and prove it...
...
... scuba ...
...
... got yer ball joint spacers on yet? How's yer power steering?

Sorry, but what was the last turbo engine you owned?

and before you say it... yes I "F" up too....

Dude, I havent had money to get out and get all the parts, and no, the lift isnt on....I dont have an angle grinder either...

I've never owned a turbo engine...

what are you getting at ?

NicCantDecide · 12-22-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Beeman

So what? That G54B block we use, people on his forum are making 400+hp out of them...Your right...in the long run, thousands and thousands of dollars later, that 2.6 will be able to put out more power...but a 2.4L should still be more than 197, being fully built on top of that

I'm sure you can take the LCE engine and retune it for higher boost, put a bigger turbo on it, etc.

I know people pushing 600hp out of stock block honda 4-bangers with forged pistons and billet H-beam rods. With sleeves, there are some people pushing over 800hp.

But remember this is only peak numbers and the torque curves on these engines are walls, flat until 3-4k then they shoot up a few hundred ft lbs in under 1k rpms.

I'd say if you want an engine that won't break and is very reliable, buy the LCE engine. Its brand new, proven to run at 200hp. you'd be surprised at how fast 200hp feels in a truck/4Runner too, especially since stock we barely put out 100 to the wheels. Give em a call and ask them what kind of engine management they use and if its possible for you to modify the maps aftermarket or not. If its possible then upgrading it will be a lot cheaper.

seaofnames · 12-23-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Beeman

So what? That G54B block we use, people on his forum are making 400+hp out of them...Your right...in the long run, thousands and thousands of dollars later, that 2.6 will be able to put out more power...but a 2.4L should still be more than 197, being fully built on top of that

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagger_lee

^^Agreed^^

With the turbo technology thats out there, you can pull some big numbers on little displacement as long as you have the bottom end to support. That little quote "There is no replacement for displacement!" that all the old timers use, doesn't totally apply so much anymore. I could have safely pulled 300awhp out of my little 2.0 suby for a little under $3k.

I think Abe mentioned earlier, that is a conservative tune on behalf of LCE, and they could pull quite a bit more from that set up. I would give them a call before you totally write them off. Its good stuff for sure.

Its a 22r series engine, which means it has 2.2L of displacement.
Torque/hp curves are much more important when actually racing/tuning then they are some peak numbers on paper.

Go ahead and put in an engine with no torque and see how it moves below 3000 rpm. Torque is also important for trucks because they are heavy and are meant to be used offroading and towing where torque is key.

Sport trucks are great and have their place, but 4X4's should be used for that, and not drag racing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NicCantDecide

I'm sure you can take the LCE engine and retune it for higher boost, put a bigger turbo on it, etc.

I know people pushing 600hp out of stock block honda 4-bangers with forged pistons and billet H-beam rods. With sleeves, there are some people pushing over 800hp.

But remember this is only peak numbers and the torque curves on these engines are walls, flat until 3-4k then they shoot up a few hundred ft lbs in under 1k rpms.

I'd say if you want an engine that won't break and is very reliable, buy the LCE engine. Its brand new, proven to run at 200hp. you'd be surprised at how fast 200hp feels in a truck/4Runner too, especially since stock we barely put out 100 to the wheels. Give em a call and ask them what kind of engine management they use and if its possible for you to modify the maps aftermarket or not. If its possible then upgrading it will be a lot cheaper.

Thanks for mentioning the curves. They are almost always forgotten when talking about tuning trucks.

82yota · 12-23-2008, 07:06 PM

Don't want to get into this much but seaofnames, you gotta understand that 22R doesn't mean R series 2.2L. It is a 2.4L engine. The 20R was the 2.2L. Don't know why but that is what they are. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya.

Erik Beeman · 12-23-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaofnames

Its a 22r series engine, which means it has 2.2L of displacement.

Sport trucks are great and have their place, but 4X4's should be used for that, and not drag racing.

The 22RE, is a 2.4L. And my truck, an 88 22RE, standard cab, short bed, 2WD...is probably lighter than modern day cars. I'll be more worried about putting the power to the ground more than I will about how much torque I can make. The stock motor would spin my tires now, and I think it has what, 110 ft lbs? With a build motor, it's going to put out more than that, and if it's spinning the tires NOW, well, you can put the rest of that sentence together.

abecedarian · 12-23-2008, 09:33 PM

Interesting point...
... getting the power you have to the ground before worrying about how much power there actually is....

I've seen people with VW's take Hemi's in an 1/8 mile.
I've beat a turbo'd 5sp up to 100 miles per hour in my ... equqivalent automatic ... chrysler 2.2L turbo.
I've seen stock Buicks take Corvette's... anyone remember the GNx?

and now we have a 2.4L... I've seen 2.0L with 200 HP....

one thing to consider... put that subaru in a tug of war with your toyota...

need I say more?

abecedarian · 12-23-2008, 09:37 PM

whoops.

Hayes · 12-23-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 82yota

Don't want to get into this much but seaofnames, you gotta understand that 22R doesn't mean R series 2.2L. It is a 2.4L engine. The 20R was the 2.2L. Don't know why but that is what they are. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya.

If I remember correctly, the 20 and 22 have absolutely nothing to do with the displacement. 20R is the 20th iteration of the R series engine and 22R(E) was the 22nd iteration of the R series engine. 22R is a carb'd engine and the 22RE was fuel injected.

scuba · 12-23-2008, 10:11 PM

GNX FTW !!!

seaofnames · 12-24-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

one thing to consider... put that subaru in a tug of war with your toyota...

need I say more?

Awesome point. 4Low rocks.

Sorry to everyone about the displacement thing, my bad.

Diesel_Freak · 12-24-2008, 11:34 AM

X2 for the 3.4. Better yet, swap the 1KZT-E into it and you'll have the coolest toyota on this side of the pond. That's what I would have done if I had 6K to spend on a new motor/Swap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NicCantDecide

damn I spent 6K on my B-Series honda engine and that thing's built to handle 450hp. Only running 300 right now though.

What a waste of money, AND No its not, you HONduh folk crack me up... Want power in a compact tuner car?: get a VW or get over it... You folks don't have a clue what Torque and power is or what it does untill I say BYE BYE in a real performance vehicle

Cheers

Dave

Diesel_Freak · 12-24-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayes

If I remember correctly, the 20 and 22 have absolutely nothing to do with the displacement. 20R is the 20th iteration of the R series engine and 22R(E) was the 22nd iteration of the R series engine. 22R is a carb'd engine and the 22RE was fuel injected.

Correct... Sort of... The 20R WAS a 2.2L, the 22R/E are 2.4L motors.

EDIT: All this talk about different motors is completely irrelevent, so what if a FHI Boxer Motor can make 500hp... it's a different motor that was designed to take that power load and flow enough air to make those numbers. A motor like the 22RE is a long stroke motor that frankly was not meant to spool up to 7K and make 400horse. Is it stong enough??? Yes, absolutely, but it was designed to be a tourquey motor, not a race engine. The money I spent to take my 1.8L 8V VW motor up to over the 200hp at the wheels (206) mark was un-real. But with all that money came high quality parts and added longevity so... There are all kinds of motors with all kinds of displacements and designs, but not all of them will do the same thing. A motor is an air pump. The faster and more efficently you can get air in and out determines your power. Everything else just modifies your powerband or your Torque curve. With that in mind, have at it.

Cheers

Dave

TOYOTA 1 · 12-24-2008, 11:51 AM

theres no replacement for displacement.

Erik Beeman · 12-24-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOYOTA 1

theres no replacement for displacement.

Forced Induction buddy.

scuba · 12-24-2008, 02:00 PM

stagger_lee · 12-24-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel_Freak

Correct... Sort of... The 20R WAS a 2.2L, the 22R/E are 2.4L motors.

EDIT: All this talk about different motors is completely irrelevent, so what if a FHI Boxer Motor can make 500hp... it's a different motor that was designed to take that power load and flow enough air to make those numbers. A motor like the 22RE is a long stroke motor that frankly was not meant to spool up to 7K and make 400horse. Is it stong enough??? Yes, absolutely, but it was designed to be a tourquey motor, not a race engine. The money I spent to take my 1.8L 8V VW motor up to over the 200hp at the wheels (206) mark was un-real. But with all that money came high quality parts and added longevity so... There are all kinds of motors with all kinds of displacements and designs, but not all of them will do the same thing. A motor is an air pump. The faster and more efficently you can get air in and out determines your power. Everything else just modifies your powerband or your Torque curve. With that in mind, have at it.

Cheers

Dave

Relevent when simply trying to make a point that motors with little displacement cant put out high horse and torque. Point missed I guess. Just trying to defuse the v6 v8 swap crowd.

TOYOTA 1 · 12-24-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Beeman

Forced Induction buddy.

lol, ok so you turbo your 4banger. then i put a blower on my big block

the point is you can do all the mods you want to a 4cyl, and an equally built v8 is gonna have more power. you don't see a 4banger racing in top fuel do you?

stagger_lee · 12-24-2008, 08:15 PM

I think he just wants to pull decent numbers on a 4 banger, not run high 4 sec 1/4s in his yote.

So...LCE, huh? NIce.

LAXitives288 · 12-25-2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel_Freak

Want power in a compact tuner car?: get a VW or get over it... You folks don't have a clue what Torque and power is or what it does untill I say BYE BYE in a real performance vehicle

Cheers

Dave

Yes sir, VW's are known for being "real" performance vehicles. Front Wheel Drive is also known for its sporting nature. Quit spewing ignorance. Rx7 > all

The Op wasn't asking about 8v's out of old golfs or b18's from honduhs, he wanted to know everyone's opinion on the value of an LCE turbo setup.

Erik Beeman · 12-25-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOYOTA 1

lol, ok so you turbo your 4banger. then i put a blower on my big block

Quote:

the point is you can do all the mods you want to a 4cyl, and an equally built v8 is gonna have more power.

Dude, no way! Tell me more =}

Erik Beeman · 12-25-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAXitives288

The Op wasn't asking about 8v's out of old golfs or b18's from honduhs, he wanted to know everyone's opinion on the value of an LCE turbo setup.

abecedarian · 12-25-2008, 10:35 PM

Your original post said something like the dyno run showed something like 197 hp and 237 ft/lb torque at the wheels... considering stock 22re is around 110 hp and 140 ft/lb at the flywheel... I think it's fairly safe to say it's nearly a 100% increase in power after factoring in driveline losses.
I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a stock 22re though, but if taken care of it could easily hit 100,000 miles.

...for the displacement junkies... boosting an engine to 1 bar or more is a displacement increase: it's being force fed over twice the air than it would otherwise consume and a corresponding amount of fuel.

1989toy4wd · 12-25-2008, 11:11 PM

Im surprised none of you have mentioned the 22re's lack of efficiency. Its not a really efficient motor at all, like the other people said it was built for torque.

I dont like knocking on other people, but seriously you are going to argue that a 4cyl can make as much power as a V8 with the same mods. Get real people. Its common knowledge that it costs more money to get 400hp out of a 4cyl than a V8.

And dont get me started on hondas, subies, mitsus, etc. Yeah they can make good power, but you are also talking about DOHC motors with hemispherical combustion chambers, the 22re is a SOHC with a horrible head design, its really restictive and not very efficient as I said earlier. The most I have ever heard powerwise out of a 22re motor was 250hp, after that you are looking at custom everything, when someone gets 300hp out of a 22re it will be a miracle, and they will have a huge wallet.

Now back to LCE, they are the best out there, and the amount of time they worked on it probably amounts to that much money. They are a very good quality company! They may not make that much power but I bet if you spend 6k on doing everything yourself, you will be disappointed cause these engines just dont make that much power.

12-23-2008, 10:11 PM	#36 (permalink)
scuba Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: WHEELIN BIG BEAR Posts: 6,968	GNX FTW !!! __________________ Screw you guys I'm goin to TTORA Mods, please be mature and leave my sig alone, thanks. No, I will not be your friend.

12-24-2008, 02:00 PM	#42 (permalink)
scuba Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: WHEELIN BIG BEAR Posts: 6,968	__________________ Screw you guys I'm goin to TTORA Mods, please be mature and leave my sig alone, thanks. No, I will not be your friend.

12-25-2008, 11:11 PM	#50 (permalink)
1989toy4wd Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Beaumont, Tx Posts: 949	Im surprised none of you have mentioned the 22re's lack of efficiency. Its not a really efficient motor at all, like the other people said it was built for torque. I dont like knocking on other people, but seriously you are going to argue that a 4cyl can make as much power as a V8 with the same mods. Get real people. Its common knowledge that it costs more money to get 400hp out of a 4cyl than a V8. And dont get me started on hondas, subies, mitsus, etc. Yeah they can make good power, but you are also talking about DOHC motors with hemispherical combustion chambers, the 22re is a SOHC with a horrible head design, its really restictive and not very efficient as I said earlier. The most I have ever heard powerwise out of a 22re motor was 250hp, after that you are looking at custom everything, when someone gets 300hp out of a 22re it will be a miracle, and they will have a huge wallet. Now back to LCE, they are the best out there, and the amount of time they worked on it probably amounts to that much money. They are a very good quality company! They may not make that much power but I bet if you spend 6k on doing everything yourself, you will be disappointed cause these engines just dont make that much power. __________________ -Colton- 1989 Toyota Pickup DLX, 22RE, 5-spd, 5-in SAS, Detroit back, ARB front, longs, 37/13R15 Boggers, Marlin front and rear bumpers, Marlin sliders, Ramsey Patriot 9500 winch with synthetic line, Hi-angle D/S F&R, diff breathers, rebuilt tranny, 22RE bored .20 over completely rebuilt (it feels great to not have to buy 2 cases of oil a month!!), whole truck built in memory of my dad (RIP 6-26-08) Daily driver & tow vehicle: 02 Dodge 2500 Diesel, 5-speed, 4wd, quad cab, longbed, 128k miles

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12-23-2008, 07:06 PM	#31 (permalink)
82yota Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 301	Don't want to get into this much but seaofnames, you gotta understand that 22R doesn't mean R series 2.2L. It is a 2.4L engine. The 20R was the 2.2L. Don't know why but that is what they are. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya.