Issues

Ive got a 86 fourrunner with a 5 speed. Im installing anouther 22re in it as i type this due to way lower miles, 268,000 on old one & 150,000 on newer motor. But the other motor had an automactic bolted to it. (Someone) told me i had to swap intakes due to this. Im using my harness, flywheel, etc. Why wouldnt it work. Someone please tell me if this is true or bs. Cause im working on it right now, lap top on toolbox! Ive never done a motor swap in a yota before. But to me this sounds funny. Thanks... (Greasy key pad now,lol)

thook

What was their reasoning behind this?! The only difference I know of would be the year of the engine and it's emissions equipment.

What year is the donor engine from?

just a 22re

x2 on that tranys have nothing to do with the motors on these trucks heck you can use a stock runner trany and a supra engine infront of it!!!

what years are you doing here a little more info would be nice

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

It may have nothing to do with the long block, but many associated parts matter.

First, we need to know the exact years of the engines. The 22RE intake was redesigned in 1989 for better airflow. The throttle body assy DOES matter for AT or MT, and must be swapped accordingly.

As long as your donor engine is from an 85-88 truck or 85-89 4runner, you will be fine and not have to change the intake.

FredTJ

Except that it would be illegal to use an engine from a '85 if his '86





Fred

just a 22re

what??????????????????????????? how does that happen?????? i had a dodge neon with a 2.4L stratus engine in it and on top of that it was bored out to a 2.5L and i passed everything with it so i dont get this post????

FredTJ

Federal law.
It's illegal to replace the engine, in any vehicle, with an engine from an older year.
It must be from the same year or newer.






Fred

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

Eh no, you would be incorrect Fred.

Its illegal to replace any NON like-type engine unless its same year or newer.

Any shop will replace an engine in a car from any year as long as its the same engine. We regularly sell engines to shops AND dealerships from vehicles one or more years older than the engine is going into.

I dont think the dealer would risk doing something if it was illegal

abecedarian

not sure about anywhere else, but in California the basic jist of the law is that installing an engine requires that the emissions, both visual and tailpipe, meet the requirements of the most recent of either 1)the engine; or 2)the chassis.
so, if I installed an 85 22re engine into my 88 22re, the 85 22re engine would have to pass 88 22re smog requirements, both visual and tailpipe.
if I swapped a 98 5.0 Ford into my 88 22re runner, all of the 98 Ford emissions requirements must be met.
if I swapped an 87 5.0 Ford into my 88 22re runner, I'd have to meet the 88 Toyota smog emission requirements.
If the tailpipe emissions are met, but the visuals can't, which is obviously not going to happen with an extreme swap such as a Ford or GM to a Toyota, we have a 'referee' system that can pass a non-standard configuration... at a cost though.

FredTJ

No, sorry, you're wrong.
Lot's of people haven't a clue about the EPA rules and regs and, as such, face fines up to $25,000.00.
The basic condensed version of the EPA regs is:

"
he newly installed engine must be the same year (or newer) as the vehicle, and all emissions controls on the newly installed engine must be installed and functional. Also, you can't put a heavy-duty truck engine (over 6000 lb GVW) into a light-duty truck because heavy-duty truck engines have less stringent emissions limits than light duty trucks.
"


I can poke around and get you to the EPA's web site and regs but you really should check around yourself some.



Well hell, I changed my mind. I poked around some and here it is from the EPA Engine Switching Fact Sheet put out by them:

"
For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engine into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle
manufacturer.

For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to a certified configuration of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of the installed engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in a light-duty vehicle.

The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with another gasoline engine.
Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine.
Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a conversion could be done legally.

Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-built engines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in this country. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally.

EPA has recently brought enforcement actions against certain parties who have violated the tampering prohibition by performing illegal engine switches.
It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle matches exactly to anv certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and engine designs of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally not possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation of
another engine which was certified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that make and model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into a different certified configuration is likely to be very difficult, and the cost may prove prohibitive.
"



And futhermore for y'all goofs that remove cats, remove the EGR system, etc., here's the EPA law regarding tampering:

"
The federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine prior to its sale and delivery to an ultimate purchaser and prohibits any person from knowingly removing or rendering Inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery, and the causing thereof. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a
manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act prohibits any person from manufacturing or selling, or offering to sell, or installing, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or is being installed for such use. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section is $2,500.
"


Looks like a lot more people than me have $2500.00 to spare




Fred

abecedarian

those are federal specs. local requirements are often more strict, and along the lines of the summary I posted earlier about California.

Any engine transplant requires the transplanted engine to meet either the emissions requirements of the chassis, or of the engine being transplanted, whichever is most recent and/or more restrictive.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

"or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A."

Hence why you use the intake, wiring, etc from YOUR engine.

Again, you have good intentions but are just plain wrong. If it were Illegal, why would dealers or other licensed shops perform the swaps? I have yet to be nailed for any $25k fees, nor do any shops or dealers we have been selling to for 10+ years.

It is legal to swap engine type for engine type as long as emissions match, regardless of years. Period.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

Here is one for all you smart guys who like to use those "cheap" Japanese crate engines:

"Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-built engines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in this country. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally. "

abecedarian

California allows for mitigation where an engine that may not have been designed specifically for compliance may be eligible for consideration and mediation to allow for modifications and remediations to be performed in order to bring the engine into compliance.

thook

For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engine into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle
manufacturer.

The emissions equipment, etc. on my '86 is the same as that of an '85. I have compared my motor to that of 4crawler's '85 on a number of occasions to identify and/or repair my '86. In this case, if the OP's '86 is of the same nature (and, I'm sure it is), then according to the above paragraph there isn't a problem. Nothing has been adversely affected. According to the FSM/vehicle manufacturer even, they are the same.

Aside from legalities...
As far as function goes, I still don't see the issue with running an engine intake from an automatic in his standard. People do 5spd swaps into there A/T equipped vehicles without issues. The only difference in his case would be him running with his original harness and ECU. The connections would be different. There's a few other issues....like the air idle control valve, ignition safety circuitry....but those are easily bypassed with no legal or functional ramifications. Well, okay....come to think of it, depending on how much newer the year of the donor motor, there is a VSV for the EGR not provided for on his '86 ECU. Okay, so he'd have to run the '86 emissions equipment that's non ECU controlled. The '86 AAV is ECU heated, a newer AAV would not be, but still no problem.

I digress a bit....

The intake would still work for a standard transmission. The function of the A/T engine is not dependant on the function of the A/T. The A/T is dependant on the engine....throttle cable adjustment, throttle valve angle and pressure...whether the A/T is ECT controlled or fully hydraulic....makes no difference in his situation.

The only reason I can see him having to swap anything would be ECU and electronic parts compatibility. Not function wise, but ....again....for fitment/connector wise. In other words....(lol....sorry, I know I'm rambling sort of disconnectedly)....the hard parts will work, but the soft parts won't because of the original ECU and harness.

Use the original sensors, emissions, harness, ignition, ECU, etc. and I don't see a problem.

And, of course, this all depends on the year of the donor....which we still don't know.

If I'm wrong, please explain otherwise.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

Hmm. thats the first i heard of that. Here in WA, Japanese crate engine sellers are required to put in the "fine print" section "For offroad use only" but can word it anyway they want. They still get installed in vehicles, but shops will not do it for liablity reasons.

abecedarian

In Cali, you can put whatever engine you want into whatever vehicle you want, but you can apply for an exemption for 'off-road use only' if that is the intended purpose of the vehicle, or you can go through a very painstaking process for an exemption for on-road use. It's not easy or cheap, but if your engine meets emissions requirements for the newer of either the engine or chassis, it becomes a lot easier.

personally, I find it all bullocks!

my '78 toyo truck got about 30 on the street in 85. now my 88 get's about 25 and my 91 gets around 21 average. so they get more strict about emissions and mileage gets worse.
I had an 81 Scirocco that could muster 40+ on the highway but they can't build them that way anymore 'cause it gave off too much NOx (allegedly) and not enough CO2... but now CO2 is bad and NOx is better (NOx seems to help trees grow? go figure)
WTFever

Issues

Geez, this turned into a EPA battle, lol. Well the motor (out of 88 pu) is now in my fourrunner. Its gone rather smooth so far. I checked the hook ups from donor truck engine harness to mine. Didnt see any problems other than i didnt have auto trans connections cause mine being manual. As soon as i get this posted im starting on hooking up harness. Liked to hear her run tonight. But there is one thing though. On my 86 intake there is like a adjustable vaccum valve of some sort on it on drivers side. Donor motor doesnt have it. It just has a plug in it. Do i need to install this? All the vaccum hose are hooked up but a little different do this valve not being on it. Any ideas on this? Thanks for the info so far...

abecedarian

adjustable vacuum valve?
hmm... maybe the air-conditioning idle-up valve?

dcg9381

The bottom line is that it's a violation of law in most cases.

This makes me wonder: If I install a "reman" motor - does that reman have to originate from a vehicle that is newer than my current motor?

What a cluster!

The *only* place that I know of that cares about this sort of thing is California. And as far as I know, there is no way for the state to tell the year of the motor via visual inspection.

This does come into play with motor swaps. If you install a late model V8 in your 4runner, obviously this is going to create some attention.

Locally - at least in my state, there is no way to check, no way to verify, and it's a non-issue as long as you're able to pass the sniffer. Motor swaps are queried a more carefully because the change is obvious....

The feds have mandiated that changing just about anything on your vehicle is illegal. I have my 4runner running on E85 - it's technically illegal because I replaced the factory EFI system. The thing could run on garbage and emit pure oxygen, it's still illegal... *sigh*