I think I have figured out a way to efficiently place a turbo on my 3vz
03-11-2009, 08:26 AM
#1
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I think I have figured out a way to efficiently place a turbo on my 3vz
I spent alot of study time the last few days DEMANDING myself to find a more efficient turbo placement for my 3vz. I have seen pics of a couple of turbo 3vz engines, but did'nt like the placement of the turbo. With the outlet on the turbo wrapping around the motor, the air is already warmer than after the intercooler(kinda redundant, yes?)
Well... After the exhaust manifold junction(silliest manifold system I have EVER seen is on the 3vz) there happens to be about 18 in. before the O2 sensor. There is quite alot of room between the top of the exhaust tube and the bottom of the cab. I am going to mount the turbo at this location(freeing up ALOT of room in the engine bay).
The ambient air inlet will be plumbed up to where the original airbox was with a splash gaurd and cone filter.
The outlet is going this same route only I have replaced the clutch fan with a thin electric freeing up about 4 in. between the timing cover and fan. Running my tubing 90deg. and across between the motor and fan. Under the batt. box and does a 180 next to the radiator support, Running back across in front of the condensor and back through next to the rad. support opposite side.
I am not going to use an intercooler as I am not wanting to boost more than probably 4 or 5 psi.(yeah , we'll see huh) and the fact that I am running the pipe away from the heat around behind the grill then back in right in front of the ambient air filter.
I am thinking this will relieve alot of heat as it comes through the front and then through the air being drawn in by the inlet and straight to the intake.
I only had this epiphany after I was checking out my buddies twin spooled vette. The turbochargers are locted at the rear of the vehicle and piped up to the front. Yes he has a HUGE intercooler, but hes also boosting about 10 psi to make a lil over 680 whp (yes on the dyno).
But there are my thoughts and procedures to happen.
I HONESTLY believe the stock ecu and other components will be able to handle this up to about 6 psi(I have heard of guy running 11psi at stock...but whatever, not me).
I am using a very small turbocharger that comes off the early 90's mits. eclipse.(chrysler laser, dodge daytona, charger..etc..) I cant believe how tiny it actually is, but it will definately work. Those engines were 4 bangers but the 3vz power ratio is quite similar to the eclipse engine.
I figure to gain about 40hp, which is more than enough for what I need it for.
I am hoping I can tow my boat with no problems at that point. Its not putting the boat in the water thats the problem, its getting the boat out. I have to put in 4lo to pull out and up the ramp. I will hopefully alleviate alot the down shifting towing on grade as well.
Pics will come as the the project begins and progresses.
WISH ME LUCK!
Well... After the exhaust manifold junction(silliest manifold system I have EVER seen is on the 3vz) there happens to be about 18 in. before the O2 sensor. There is quite alot of room between the top of the exhaust tube and the bottom of the cab. I am going to mount the turbo at this location(freeing up ALOT of room in the engine bay).
The ambient air inlet will be plumbed up to where the original airbox was with a splash gaurd and cone filter.
The outlet is going this same route only I have replaced the clutch fan with a thin electric freeing up about 4 in. between the timing cover and fan. Running my tubing 90deg. and across between the motor and fan. Under the batt. box and does a 180 next to the radiator support, Running back across in front of the condensor and back through next to the rad. support opposite side.
I am not going to use an intercooler as I am not wanting to boost more than probably 4 or 5 psi.(yeah , we'll see huh) and the fact that I am running the pipe away from the heat around behind the grill then back in right in front of the ambient air filter.
I am thinking this will relieve alot of heat as it comes through the front and then through the air being drawn in by the inlet and straight to the intake.
I only had this epiphany after I was checking out my buddies twin spooled vette. The turbochargers are locted at the rear of the vehicle and piped up to the front. Yes he has a HUGE intercooler, but hes also boosting about 10 psi to make a lil over 680 whp (yes on the dyno).
But there are my thoughts and procedures to happen.
I HONESTLY believe the stock ecu and other components will be able to handle this up to about 6 psi(I have heard of guy running 11psi at stock...but whatever, not me).
I am using a very small turbocharger that comes off the early 90's mits. eclipse.(chrysler laser, dodge daytona, charger..etc..) I cant believe how tiny it actually is, but it will definately work. Those engines were 4 bangers but the 3vz power ratio is quite similar to the eclipse engine.
I figure to gain about 40hp, which is more than enough for what I need it for.
I am hoping I can tow my boat with no problems at that point. Its not putting the boat in the water thats the problem, its getting the boat out. I have to put in 4lo to pull out and up the ramp. I will hopefully alleviate alot the down shifting towing on grade as well.
Pics will come as the the project begins and progresses.
WISH ME LUCK!
03-11-2009, 08:32 AM
#2
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Thread Starter
yay!
I found a small intercooler that I think will fit between the rad support and fender(front side) that will at least gaurantee cooler air(I still think I shant need one. but better safe than...well you know.
better to have and not need than to need and not have.
better to have and not need than to need and not have.
03-11-2009, 10:31 AM
#5
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Damn it, you beat me to it.
I did my Mechanical Engineering internship at Garrett Turbochargers in Torrance, CA. Since you are mounting the turbo at or lower than the oil level in the pan, you are going to need to put in a sump and pumping system to get it back to the motor.
If you want to do the turbo all kinds of favors, run full synthetic, it does not cook in the turbo like dino oil. If you really want to make it survive, put in a separate oiling system, totally independant of the engine. This keeps the carbon that builds up in the engine oil from entering the turbo bearing system. Those small turbos spin up to 150k+ RPM, and at those rotational speeds, contaminates in the oil can hurt the journal bearings in the turbo very quickly.
Also, given that location, are you going to use an air cooled or a water cooled turbocharger? I would recommend a water cooled unit, as there will not be very much airflow down there on a trail.
Some additional heat shielding will most likely be required for the floor pan and possibly the trans, those turbine housings get pretty toasty!!
Good luck with this, getting it plumbed is the easy part. Getting the motor to work properly with it will be the challenge.
Mike
I did my Mechanical Engineering internship at Garrett Turbochargers in Torrance, CA. Since you are mounting the turbo at or lower than the oil level in the pan, you are going to need to put in a sump and pumping system to get it back to the motor.
If you want to do the turbo all kinds of favors, run full synthetic, it does not cook in the turbo like dino oil. If you really want to make it survive, put in a separate oiling system, totally independant of the engine. This keeps the carbon that builds up in the engine oil from entering the turbo bearing system. Those small turbos spin up to 150k+ RPM, and at those rotational speeds, contaminates in the oil can hurt the journal bearings in the turbo very quickly.
Also, given that location, are you going to use an air cooled or a water cooled turbocharger? I would recommend a water cooled unit, as there will not be very much airflow down there on a trail.
Some additional heat shielding will most likely be required for the floor pan and possibly the trans, those turbine housings get pretty toasty!!
Good luck with this, getting it plumbed is the easy part. Getting the motor to work properly with it will be the challenge.
Mike
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03-11-2009, 06:15 PM
#8
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STS is way to expensive for my budget, plus they want me to buy the programmer and injectors as a kit(which would be awesome had I had the money, hell if I had the money I would take it up to PHX and have them install one.
sorry, anyways. I am going to have an oil reservoir to mount to the firewall and a high volume pump circulating from such. Like I said I am in the beginning stages here and I after doing some pictures and measurements will remove the exhaust hopefully on saturday.
I am trying this with what parts I can get and having to fabricate the rest.
sincerely the plumbing so far has been the biggest headache. there is NOT much room around these engines. The electric fan makes me the room to accomodate plumbing and or if need the unit itself. I however am trying to figure out how to plumb around enough room to at least put on the clutch fan per chance the elect. goes out oin the trail(which we all know it would happen at the furthest point from anywhere.)or maybe just keep a spare elect.
Pictures saturday, then I will probably have some questions for pondering.
sorry, anyways. I am going to have an oil reservoir to mount to the firewall and a high volume pump circulating from such. Like I said I am in the beginning stages here and I after doing some pictures and measurements will remove the exhaust hopefully on saturday.
I am trying this with what parts I can get and having to fabricate the rest.
sincerely the plumbing so far has been the biggest headache. there is NOT much room around these engines. The electric fan makes me the room to accomodate plumbing and or if need the unit itself. I however am trying to figure out how to plumb around enough room to at least put on the clutch fan per chance the elect. goes out oin the trail(which we all know it would happen at the furthest point from anywhere.)or maybe just keep a spare elect.
Pictures saturday, then I will probably have some questions for pondering.
03-11-2009, 08:41 PM
#9
i have always wanted to turbo mine, but just doesnt seam to be worth it frim what i hear. of course noone seams to have though it out as rediculously a you. im definatelly watchin out for this thread!
03-11-2009, 09:01 PM
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Another one of my "thoughts to ponder": Given the 'nature' of most trucks (and the predisposition of the 22r/re in particular as well as, to a lesser extent the 3VZE, to be lower rpm performers), a supercharger is more well suited for 'normal' use than a turbocharger... that is unless you're desert racing and winding the engine out in which case a turbo is the only way to go.
Hey... I know it's cool to be turbo'd (most of my time is spent on the highway and on easy trails where using 2nd and even 3rd in 4Hi is the norm not the exception).... Turbo is to supercharging as fuel injection is to carb's: more modern.
As mentioned... just my "thought".
Hey... I know it's cool to be turbo'd (most of my time is spent on the highway and on easy trails where using 2nd and even 3rd in 4Hi is the norm not the exception).... Turbo is to supercharging as fuel injection is to carb's: more modern.
As mentioned... just my "thought".
03-11-2009, 09:34 PM
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Turbo on a 3vze. Seriously. WOW. You have a serious set on you. Thats a engine thats prone to going under normal circumstances, and you wanna throw a turbo on. Good luck. Ive had two toyota's with that engine. Its my nightmare. Its the single worst engine put out by toyota.
03-11-2009, 10:11 PM
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Turbo on a 3vze. Seriously. WOW. You have a serious set on you. Thats a engine thats prone to going under normal circumstances, and you wanna throw a turbo on. Good luck. Ive had two toyota's with that engine. Its my nightmare. Its the single worst engine put out by toyota.
wouldnt it be more efficient to do a 5vz swap? cheaper more power? supercharged? mmmm
03-11-2009, 10:18 PM
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recall? Its a serious issue. Even fixed with the NEW design its a weak engine. I say that from serious experience with it. I loved that truck, but dang. A turbo, thats asking for it to blow. Seriously.
03-11-2009, 10:35 PM
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Make sure it's not close to the oil pan the rods might dent the turbo housing, I am all for custom Cool stuff and Turbos are sweet but I think a 3.4 would be a better bang for the buck and a lot more reliable.
03-12-2009, 07:47 AM
#16
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I dont see any better bang for the buck here. I will all in all have likely less than $750 in this whole project. Swap, I would love to, but the time and money is better spent elsewhere. If the motor pops then I have a reason to swap that my wife can't argue.
There are other 3vz turbos, 2 that I can think of by finding in threads here. I know one fells claims he's pushing 11psi in his stock 3vz (doubtful, but claimed) and hasn't had any problems in 10k yet. I see the dillema everyone is speaking of. I had thought out the whole supercharger situation as well. It's more money involved and more work as well with the whole intake mods and all. Also wouldnt the supercharger be worse for wear on an alrerady (as everyone says) turd engine? If I can use already spent energy to create more energy it seems to be more efficient to me.
I don't think I have ever trailed trails that have me in 3rd while in 4hi, the trails I like I would be lucky to get into third at 4lo...lol..
Anyways, this is a project already weighed and thought out. I will make this work out one way or a broken nother.
There are so many 3vz toys out there that an application like this could help.
I haven't had ANY HG problems so far. The originaL owner I bought the runner from had the HG's, Timing belt, water pump replacved at 95k. (somehow through warranty and recall, son works at toyota dlr here). I think it will all work out fine and we can have an option for some additional power for all the budget 3vz owners like myself.(My 4 wheelin hobby sucks up enpough cash as it is, just ask my wife)
All in all, I may end up wioth something I can share to help everyone else either by having an alternative for power gain or having a lesson of what not to do....
HERE WE GO....
There are other 3vz turbos, 2 that I can think of by finding in threads here. I know one fells claims he's pushing 11psi in his stock 3vz (doubtful, but claimed) and hasn't had any problems in 10k yet. I see the dillema everyone is speaking of. I had thought out the whole supercharger situation as well. It's more money involved and more work as well with the whole intake mods and all. Also wouldnt the supercharger be worse for wear on an alrerady (as everyone says) turd engine? If I can use already spent energy to create more energy it seems to be more efficient to me.
I don't think I have ever trailed trails that have me in 3rd while in 4hi, the trails I like I would be lucky to get into third at 4lo...lol..
Anyways, this is a project already weighed and thought out. I will make this work out one way or a broken nother.
There are so many 3vz toys out there that an application like this could help.
I haven't had ANY HG problems so far. The originaL owner I bought the runner from had the HG's, Timing belt, water pump replacved at 95k. (somehow through warranty and recall, son works at toyota dlr here). I think it will all work out fine and we can have an option for some additional power for all the budget 3vz owners like myself.(My 4 wheelin hobby sucks up enpough cash as it is, just ask my wife)
All in all, I may end up wioth something I can share to help everyone else either by having an alternative for power gain or having a lesson of what not to do....
HERE WE GO....
03-12-2009, 08:38 AM
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ok so me and my dad have mine tore down and it was funny i come across this thread we were just talking of doing a tiny in line turbo remote placed ive got my whole engine tore down due to head gaskets so if this works i putting some high comp pistons in and a turbo remote placed good idea with external oil as well
03-12-2009, 10:57 AM
#18
guys, knock the crap off... Dirt Clod is trying to do something amazing and DOCUMENT it, so STOP TELLING HIM TO DO A MOTOR SWAP!!! its not helpfull... AT ALL...
if y'all dont have any other input other than saying "swap to a 3.4" then dont say anything...
as for me, dirt clod, i think this is an excellent idea, and i hope it works well... if it does, mind if i copy your design and install?? ive been wanting to do this since i first bought my runner...
i imagine that the truck guys dont have AS much as a problem performance wise, but the runners are just so damn heavy...
Rock on, bro, and keep us updated!!
if y'all dont have any other input other than saying "swap to a 3.4" then dont say anything...
as for me, dirt clod, i think this is an excellent idea, and i hope it works well... if it does, mind if i copy your design and install?? ive been wanting to do this since i first bought my runner...
i imagine that the truck guys dont have AS much as a problem performance wise, but the runners are just so damn heavy...
Rock on, bro, and keep us updated!!
Last edited by space-junk; 03-12-2009 at 10:58 AM.
03-12-2009, 11:07 AM
#19
Turbo on a 3vze. Seriously. WOW. You have a serious set on you. Thats a engine thats prone to going under normal circumstances, and you wanna throw a turbo on. Good luck. Ive had two toyota's with that engine. Its my nightmare. Its the single worst engine put out by toyota.
prone to going under normal circumstances??? im sorry, but i take care of my truck and with 260K on it, its never had a head gasket blow...
no, it wouldnt be more cheaper to do a 5vz swap... cool, yes, but do you know what the cost to REBUILD one of those is?? more power, yes, but higher up in the RPM range, and if hes doing this for towing and whatnot, then he needs the lower rpm power...
ever seen a 3.4 with that many miles on it??? didnt think so...
let me make this clear, the 3.0 is NOT a bad motor... its just not something that will get you crazy power numbers... yea, it was a bad design for airflow, but really, no one has invested enough time and effort into these motors to find something that actually works...
and as for the head gasket issue, most people believe that it was caused by the crappy crossover design, so get a set of headers and (OMG!!) headgasket problem gone!!
03-12-2009, 01:25 PM
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[QUOTE=space-junk;51086034]prone to going under normal circumstances??? im sorry, but i take care of my truck and with 260K on it, its never had a head gasket blow...
I love when people say that. Mine didn't, so the massive recall initiated by Toyota due to a pretty serious design flaw MUST be wrong. I am very excited that you got lucky, but in statistical terms you are an outlier. Talk to the MUCH larger statistical group of people that took very good care of their 3vze and had it blow at 40k, 80k, again at 160k. Its a well documented design issue that makes it a weak design. 1. Issue of different mating materials on the block and head causing uneven expansion. The new headgaskets "should" have fixed it. 2. It has a underefficent internal coolant design that by its nature creates UNEVEN cooling patterns causing uneven expansion.
Again. Im stoked you got lucky. There are many out there that did. But, I stand behind DATA and as a former owner of the 3vze. Its the worst engine ive seen on a toyota. The whole issue with it is exactly counter to your claim. Its bad because you can be the BEST owner in the world and it will just pop on you. Thats why Toyota did a MASSIVE recall on the head gaskets.
I love when people say that. Mine didn't, so the massive recall initiated by Toyota due to a pretty serious design flaw MUST be wrong. I am very excited that you got lucky, but in statistical terms you are an outlier. Talk to the MUCH larger statistical group of people that took very good care of their 3vze and had it blow at 40k, 80k, again at 160k. Its a well documented design issue that makes it a weak design. 1. Issue of different mating materials on the block and head causing uneven expansion. The new headgaskets "should" have fixed it. 2. It has a underefficent internal coolant design that by its nature creates UNEVEN cooling patterns causing uneven expansion.
Again. Im stoked you got lucky. There are many out there that did. But, I stand behind DATA and as a former owner of the 3vze. Its the worst engine ive seen on a toyota. The whole issue with it is exactly counter to your claim. Its bad because you can be the BEST owner in the world and it will just pop on you. Thats why Toyota did a MASSIVE recall on the head gaskets.
