I give up...where are they?
03-16-2008, 12:24 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
I give up...where are they?
I've been looking for a write-up that someone posted (ovrrdrive?) that engnbldr authored on "his" procedure for installing the 22re head/gasket. I gave it two days of a couple hours searching each day and haven't found it. I do not remember what thread it was posted in or when I saw the thread, either. I've tried using engnbldr's and ovrrdrive's (I believe he/you posted it) names in the search. and it's not that I don't turn up anything, but I've tired of reading through all of the threads that it's not in.
Also, I've creatively rearranged the bolts for my timing cover (by means of dropping on the ground....duh!
) and I read somewhere at some time that someone has/had posted a write-up on where all those suckers go. I still have all of the water and oil pump bolts in there proper locations.
Does anyone know where these articles of interest may be?
Thanks
Also, I've creatively rearranged the bolts for my timing cover (by means of dropping on the ground....duh!
) and I read somewhere at some time that someone has/had posted a write-up on where all those suckers go. I still have all of the water and oil pump bolts in there proper locations.Does anyone know where these articles of interest may be?
Thanks
03-16-2008, 12:32 PM
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03-16-2008, 01:05 PM
#3
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One down.....one to go! Thanks a bunch, Aaronn.
I didn't realize 4crawler had a write up on the timing cover, also. What I was remembering was a different author. Moot now, though.
I didn't realize 4crawler had a write up on the timing cover, also. What I was remembering was a different author. Moot now, though.
03-16-2008, 04:34 PM
#7
Contributing Member
Ok I saved two different wrteups by EB, here are both of them. The first I believe he was refering to the 22re, the 2nd he mentions the 3VZE:
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
>>>*Morning!
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
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03-16-2008, 06:51 PM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
That's what I was looking for, Dale. Where'd you get those from?
I bought yet another HG tonight to redo this procedure. I ain't takin' chances with this step. After two months, I'm ready to be done with my rebuild......and have it last.
Thanks again, fellas.
I bought yet another HG tonight to redo this procedure. I ain't takin' chances with this step. After two months, I'm ready to be done with my rebuild......and have it last.
Thanks again, fellas.
03-17-2008, 03:20 AM
#11
Contributing Member
03-17-2008, 08:15 AM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
03-18-2008, 07:31 AM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
For some reason, I thought it was you that posted the procedure. Chaulk it up to a failed fuse in the associative memory bank.Thanks for chiming in, ovrrdrive.
03-21-2008, 08:23 AM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Yes, yes....I know. There's never enough time in the day.
Cleaning and painting takes considerable time. Then, there's chasing bolt and bolt hole threads. Tedious. Next time I rebuild...whenever/if ever I do...I probably won't go through this much trouble to repaint. Afterall, I'm afraid the first time I get any solvent on the paint, it will come off. I was under the assumption that engine paint was more durable than what I'm seeing. Brake cleaner takes it right off. It shor is perty, though!......for now, anyway.
This isn't the thread for it, but I've made "substantial" progress, but without pics I wouldn't want to bore anyone.
My wife (Maniaka) has promised me she'll load them for me this weekend.Interesting note..
The diagram for the TC supplied by 4crawler doesn't account for the A/C bracket bolts on the lower RH (pass. side) corner. So, I was able to match most everything and then had to go back and rearrange a smidge for the bracket. I still have one bolt that's too short for anything. It's one of the 10mm shank bolts (12mm head). I'm wondering if I didn't accidentally mix it up with a bolt that goes somewhere else...lol. DER! I'll get it all sorted once I go to reinstalling the rest of the brackets. Then, I'll do my own diagram....painted with numbers and all.
I do remember reading in a thread someone suggesting making a cardboard mock up for the TC and placing the bolts in their respective positions. That would have been too convenient, though. What's a rebuild without some struggle, eh? Ha....haha...hahaha..ha.....engh.
03-22-2008, 09:57 AM
#18
Registered User
It's perfectly normal to have a box of parts left over after a rebuild.
Not saying it's good, but perfectly normal.
I did the cardboard box mock up thing when I did mine. I just took a box and drew a rough estimation of the timing cover and used a knife to poke holes for the bolts as I pulled them. It worked pretty well except for a corner where I got lazy with my drawing.
Seems like there was a bolt like you describe in the air conditioner bracket and also in the front top of the power steering bracket...
Not saying it's good, but perfectly normal.
I did the cardboard box mock up thing when I did mine. I just took a box and drew a rough estimation of the timing cover and used a knife to poke holes for the bolts as I pulled them. It worked pretty well except for a corner where I got lazy with my drawing.
Seems like there was a bolt like you describe in the air conditioner bracket and also in the front top of the power steering bracket...
03-22-2008, 12:20 PM
#19
Registered User
Thread Starter
Yeah, the one unidentified/too short bolt I have probably doesn't even go to the motor! I bet I'll find the bag of PS stuff I have has the correct bolt.
It's funny because a week ago I went to put the cam sprocket back on and couldn't find the bolt/drive gear for it. I got all hot and bothered figuring the guys at the machine shop must've not put it back in. So, I called down to the nearby dealership to see if they had one or when they could get it. Wasn't expensive (thank God), but I thought I'd double check my pile of parts bags one more time. Well......there it was....complete with a label. I think it was my clone's handwriting, though. I know I put it back in the cam!
(I hate extended projects. Crap like this happens, even though it's.......normal.)
It's funny because a week ago I went to put the cam sprocket back on and couldn't find the bolt/drive gear for it. I got all hot and bothered figuring the guys at the machine shop must've not put it back in. So, I called down to the nearby dealership to see if they had one or when they could get it. Wasn't expensive (thank God), but I thought I'd double check my pile of parts bags one more time. Well......there it was....complete with a label. I think it was my clone's handwriting, though. I know I put it back in the cam!
(I hate extended projects. Crap like this happens, even though it's.......normal.)
