How Do You Know When To Stop Fixing Things
11-12-2016, 07:22 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How Do You Know When To Stop Fixing Things
We've all been there. "Well, I'm already this far, so I should probably do these things while I'm here"
So I purchased my 4Runner from a guy on Craigslist for $650. He said it ran fine other than the timing belt broke and he was not interested in fixing it. I got the Aisin timing belt kit with a new water pump and all the goodies. Then I got to look at things and noticed what appeared to be a lot of oil leaking on the block, presumable from the valve covers. I ended up getting new gaskets for the covers, as well as an intake gasket set.
Fast forward a few months and I've got the intake plenum removed and the valve covers off. I noticed the knock sensor harness was in rough shape, so now I am committed to pulling off the intake to replace the harness. My question is, should I stop at the intake manifold, or should I continue on and pull the heads, too. Knowing the head gaskets are problematic on the 3VZ-E, I feel it would be a good idea to replace them. However, I have never had this engine running since I got the 4Runner and wonder if I should just put it all back together and evaluate how well the truck runs before sinking any more money and time into it. Any advice would be appreciated!
So I purchased my 4Runner from a guy on Craigslist for $650. He said it ran fine other than the timing belt broke and he was not interested in fixing it. I got the Aisin timing belt kit with a new water pump and all the goodies. Then I got to look at things and noticed what appeared to be a lot of oil leaking on the block, presumable from the valve covers. I ended up getting new gaskets for the covers, as well as an intake gasket set.
Fast forward a few months and I've got the intake plenum removed and the valve covers off. I noticed the knock sensor harness was in rough shape, so now I am committed to pulling off the intake to replace the harness. My question is, should I stop at the intake manifold, or should I continue on and pull the heads, too. Knowing the head gaskets are problematic on the 3VZ-E, I feel it would be a good idea to replace them. However, I have never had this engine running since I got the 4Runner and wonder if I should just put it all back together and evaluate how well the truck runs before sinking any more money and time into it. Any advice would be appreciated!
11-12-2016, 11:33 PM
#2
I was in the same situation. I bought a non running '88 4Runner with a busted radiator and assumed blown head gasket(s). Cold compression numbers on a non running engine were horrible of course, so I went ahead and pulled/replaced the heads given the circumstances of the failure. I did minimal work cleaning the block, checking for level and doing the timing belt/water pump, valve cover gaskets, etc. I also replaced suspect wiring to the injectors and replaced the knock sensor pigtail. All the research I did said the pigtail was going to be the issue and that the knock sensor is robust and doesn't fail that often. Put it all back together, 170 compression across all cylinders and it runs great, even with a code 52 for the thing I should have replaced "while I'm here", the knock sensor itself.
If I had to do it again, and I will do it again, because the CEL is bothering me, I would replace what you can while you are there. It's pricey(the knock sensor), but if you want the engine to perform and not affect other things, long term, do what you can. There will never be a better time once it's torn down.
If I had to do it again, and I will do it again, because the CEL is bothering me, I would replace what you can while you are there. It's pricey(the knock sensor), but if you want the engine to perform and not affect other things, long term, do what you can. There will never be a better time once it's torn down.
11-13-2016, 01:14 AM
#3
When ones buys a $650.00 project vehicle even worse a 3.0 you should know it is going to get expensive
My theory I use is look at the price of the same vehicle in perfect condition then figure on spending about 1/2 the value
Then I have over $15,000.00 in my 92 4Runner fixing a 3.4 swap poorly done
Then in your case if the vehicle was driven till the belt failed what other maintenance was neglected.
Bottom line you know how much time and money you can spend
My theory I use is look at the price of the same vehicle in perfect condition then figure on spending about 1/2 the value
Then I have over $15,000.00 in my 92 4Runner fixing a 3.4 swap poorly done
Then in your case if the vehicle was driven till the belt failed what other maintenance was neglected.
Bottom line you know how much time and money you can spend
11-13-2016, 05:34 AM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco East Bay
Posts: 8,251
Likes: 0
Received 820 Likes
on
648 Posts
I'd say "stop."
As you've already found out, with an engine that old (an poorly maintained), every time you remove something you will find something new that is sketchy (or, just as likely, you'll break something else on the way). Removing the heads by itself is difficult enough, but everything on the way is fragile and you're sure to break something else in addition.
How about button it back up and see if it'll run? If you don't have code 52, then the knock sensor wire is "good enough" for now. If you get good compression, you probably don't have a head gasket problem. Will the head gasket fail some time in the future? It could. Or you could seize a bearing. Or crack a ring. Where do you stop?
You could pull the engine and "blueprint" it. But that doesn't help the transmission/drive train/suspension.
And for what it's worth, in my opinion, I doubt mholme's problem is the knock sensor. Many on this forum have replaced them with OEM and kept the code. I suspect the wiring back to the ECM. But I wish him the best of luck.
As you've already found out, with an engine that old (an poorly maintained), every time you remove something you will find something new that is sketchy (or, just as likely, you'll break something else on the way). Removing the heads by itself is difficult enough, but everything on the way is fragile and you're sure to break something else in addition.
How about button it back up and see if it'll run? If you don't have code 52, then the knock sensor wire is "good enough" for now. If you get good compression, you probably don't have a head gasket problem. Will the head gasket fail some time in the future? It could. Or you could seize a bearing. Or crack a ring. Where do you stop?
You could pull the engine and "blueprint" it. But that doesn't help the transmission/drive train/suspension.
And for what it's worth, in my opinion, I doubt mholme's problem is the knock sensor. Many on this forum have replaced them with OEM and kept the code. I suspect the wiring back to the ECM. But I wish him the best of luck.
11-13-2016, 08:16 AM
#5
Not to get off topic and start another code 52 thread, but I did replace the wiring all the way to the ecu. Twice. I researched thoroughly with a lot of useful info from yourself and was confident the wiring was the issue, but at some point I'm going to go back in and change the knock sensor. Not my daily driver and it runs very well even with the code, so it's not high enough on the priority list for a vehicle I drive once or twice a week.
Trending Topics
11-15-2016, 05:48 AM
#10
Registered User
Some of the last production '95 3vz-e engines were built using the recall type head gaskets, and so were not included in the head gasket service campaign.
I own a '95 that is new enough that it was'nt included in the 'recall'.
I own a '95 that is new enough that it was'nt included in the 'recall'.
11-15-2016, 07:37 AM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
11-15-2016, 07:55 AM
#12
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After reviewing the recall document from Toyota that my 4Runner would not be subject to the recall as it was built in 10/95 and the document states 10/94 as being the end production date.
11-15-2016, 07:56 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: exo-reality -wave if you see me; Front Range, CO
Posts: 650
Received 93 Likes
on
73 Posts
How Do You Know When To Stop Fixing Things
Haha! Trick question, right?!
I myself am like dropzone. Also have the luxury of not needing it (daily driver whatever. It hasn't had the motor in for 5 yrs. I refuse to ack how much I've spent on storage while we (the runner and I) were separated!!)
However, if the weather is warm enough when I get back to CO, I should be able to make good progress. I promise!
side note for CigarGuy, mine was also an 10/95 build. Does your have the speedo cable (not electronic)? My auto tranny did have such.
Haha! Trick question, right?!
I myself am like dropzone. Also have the luxury of not needing it (daily driver whatever. It hasn't had the motor in for 5 yrs. I refuse to ack how much I've spent on storage while we (the runner and I) were separated!!)
However, if the weather is warm enough when I get back to CO, I should be able to make good progress. I promise!
side note for CigarGuy, mine was also an 10/95 build. Does your have the speedo cable (not electronic)? My auto tranny did have such.
12-01-2016, 08:39 AM
#15
Registered User
To the point of when to stop spending -- so long as whatever you are doing costs less than the full value of the vehicle all you are doing when fixing issues on used cars is restoring that full value...
I used to live in the ice belt and 10 year old cars were rust buckets, so you had no choice but to buy 3 year old or newer vehicles if you wanted a "used" vehicle without salt damage/rust issues to the body... Haven't lived there since aluminum's become so prominent so that might change things on some of the newer vehicles...
Regardless, I now live far enough south that salt isn't used on the roads and I'm not near the ocean. Here the math changes... In brief, when buying a new car or relatively new used car you lose a tremendous amount of value each month in depreciation... Typically around $3-5k per year minimum depending on age. By the time the vehicle hits 10 years, its depreciation is nearly done, 15 years that last final bit is done, and by 20 years due to both inflation and collectability the vehicle begins to appreciate and dollar value raise...
So my budget for repairs is generally that $3-5k per year that I would otherwise lose to depreciation on a newer car that also would likely need fewer repairs (without taking into account interest I'd pay on both the value of the car existing as well as depreciated value to banker had I taken a loan on a new car). I rarely spend that, but anything in that range which easy allows for both tranny repairs and major engine repairs is digestible to me...
When buying a new used vehicle, the math and thought process is a little different as I systematically go through replacing hoses, exhaust, injectors, etc, over the first couple years assuming that none of this has been done... It's quite easy to spend that full $3-5k in the first year or so on $650 vehicle -- perhaps look at it as buying a gutted house that will be restored to your exact specs. But first and foremost I need my vehicles to be both safe and reliable.
I used to live in the ice belt and 10 year old cars were rust buckets, so you had no choice but to buy 3 year old or newer vehicles if you wanted a "used" vehicle without salt damage/rust issues to the body... Haven't lived there since aluminum's become so prominent so that might change things on some of the newer vehicles...
Regardless, I now live far enough south that salt isn't used on the roads and I'm not near the ocean. Here the math changes... In brief, when buying a new car or relatively new used car you lose a tremendous amount of value each month in depreciation... Typically around $3-5k per year minimum depending on age. By the time the vehicle hits 10 years, its depreciation is nearly done, 15 years that last final bit is done, and by 20 years due to both inflation and collectability the vehicle begins to appreciate and dollar value raise...
So my budget for repairs is generally that $3-5k per year that I would otherwise lose to depreciation on a newer car that also would likely need fewer repairs (without taking into account interest I'd pay on both the value of the car existing as well as depreciated value to banker had I taken a loan on a new car). I rarely spend that, but anything in that range which easy allows for both tranny repairs and major engine repairs is digestible to me...
When buying a new used vehicle, the math and thought process is a little different as I systematically go through replacing hoses, exhaust, injectors, etc, over the first couple years assuming that none of this has been done... It's quite easy to spend that full $3-5k in the first year or so on $650 vehicle -- perhaps look at it as buying a gutted house that will be restored to your exact specs. But first and foremost I need my vehicles to be both safe and reliable.
Last edited by RSR; 12-01-2016 at 08:41 AM.
12-01-2016, 08:42 AM
#16
Registered User
When ones buys a $650.00 project vehicle even worse a 3.0 you should know it is going to get expensive
My theory I use is look at the price of the same vehicle in perfect condition then figure on spending about 1/2 the value
Then I have over $15,000.00 in my 92 4Runner fixing a 3.4 swap poorly done
Then in your case if the vehicle was driven till the belt failed what other maintenance was neglected.
Bottom line you know how much time and money you can spend
My theory I use is look at the price of the same vehicle in perfect condition then figure on spending about 1/2 the value
Then I have over $15,000.00 in my 92 4Runner fixing a 3.4 swap poorly done
Then in your case if the vehicle was driven till the belt failed what other maintenance was neglected.
Bottom line you know how much time and money you can spend
12-02-2016, 02:56 AM
#17
Registered User
On a daily driver, I stop spending money on them when my monthly repair costs are costing me more money than a car payment on a newer (better) vehicle.
With regards to a project / hunting rig, I'll spend the money I need to spend to get what I want out of the truck. It becomes a hobby at this point and as long as it's not interfering with bills or other commitments (except maybe time commitments..... : P ) I'll likely keep going.
I also look at how much I could get if I sell the vehicle, if i'm not going to get any money back out of the thing I'll probably keep fixing it and drive it until it dies. If my 3.0 went tomorrow I'd probably put a 350 in..
With regards to a project / hunting rig, I'll spend the money I need to spend to get what I want out of the truck. It becomes a hobby at this point and as long as it's not interfering with bills or other commitments (except maybe time commitments..... : P ) I'll likely keep going.
I also look at how much I could get if I sell the vehicle, if i'm not going to get any money back out of the thing I'll probably keep fixing it and drive it until it dies. If my 3.0 went tomorrow I'd probably put a 350 in..
12-02-2016, 07:33 AM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 1,776
Likes: 0
Received 109 Likes
on
81 Posts
Like others have said, it depends on your use model and how much time, sweat, and money you have invested in it.
If it's pretty much just a generic DD, I would swap it for something better as soon as reliability became an issue and/or I was spending money or time every month or so to keep it running. Craig's list has lots of vehicles and it's not that hard to find one that will give you a few 10's of thousands of reliable miles for not all that much money if you look carefully.
On the other hand, if I've got mods that have taken time and money to install to configure it the way I want for recreational use, I'd be much more inclined to invest extra money to fix whatever is wrong with it. Again, though, it depends if the problems are confined to a specific area (engine, tranny, etc.) where you can fix something and move on, or are more widespread and endemic such as rusting body or frame, paint peeling, trashed interior, HVAC system not working, wiring getting flakey, etc. That kind of stuff can just consume you and really detract from enjoyment of the vehicle.
Depreciation on a new vehicle can be upwards of 20 or 30 cents/mile. My '94 4runner has averaged 5 cents/mile over the last 85,000 miles for maintenance (tires, oil, repairs), not counting upgrades such as lockers, etc., and depreciation has probably been about 3 cents/mile. That stacks up pretty good against owning a new vehicle.
If it's pretty much just a generic DD, I would swap it for something better as soon as reliability became an issue and/or I was spending money or time every month or so to keep it running. Craig's list has lots of vehicles and it's not that hard to find one that will give you a few 10's of thousands of reliable miles for not all that much money if you look carefully.
On the other hand, if I've got mods that have taken time and money to install to configure it the way I want for recreational use, I'd be much more inclined to invest extra money to fix whatever is wrong with it. Again, though, it depends if the problems are confined to a specific area (engine, tranny, etc.) where you can fix something and move on, or are more widespread and endemic such as rusting body or frame, paint peeling, trashed interior, HVAC system not working, wiring getting flakey, etc. That kind of stuff can just consume you and really detract from enjoyment of the vehicle.
Depreciation on a new vehicle can be upwards of 20 or 30 cents/mile. My '94 4runner has averaged 5 cents/mile over the last 85,000 miles for maintenance (tires, oil, repairs), not counting upgrades such as lockers, etc., and depreciation has probably been about 3 cents/mile. That stacks up pretty good against owning a new vehicle.
12-02-2016, 09:33 AM
#19
Registered User
Details of the retrieval from storage are in the thread here:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...k-road-295529/
Its not a DD, but now its street patked, so it has to be "operational" and "road legal"
I, like some others, am fortunate that I can afford to fund the "toy" vehicle
