Which HG?
06-02-2008, 07:51 AM
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Which HG?
Well, I am in a silly situation.
Somehow in this timing-chain-gone-full-rebuild expedition, I ended up with two headgaskets.
One is an engnbldr (Rock) headgasket, graphite.
The other is Toyota.
So which one do I use? What are the substantive differences if any?
Edjumacate me. Obviously I can return the Toy HG, and not Ted's (part of a kit).
(PLEASE, no 'always use Toy name brand, I don't really know which one is better but that's just what I do...' reponses. Somebody makes them for Toyota, so everything is aftermarket... though usually, yeah, Toy is solid quality up to and not including oil filters.)
Somehow in this timing-chain-gone-full-rebuild expedition, I ended up with two headgaskets.
One is an engnbldr (Rock) headgasket, graphite.
The other is Toyota.
So which one do I use? What are the substantive differences if any?
Edjumacate me. Obviously I can return the Toy HG, and not Ted's (part of a kit).
(PLEASE, no 'always use Toy name brand, I don't really know which one is better but that's just what I do...' reponses. Somebody makes them for Toyota, so everything is aftermarket... though usually, yeah, Toy is solid quality up to and not including oil filters.)
Last edited by Red_Chili; 06-02-2008 at 07:59 AM.
06-03-2008, 05:26 AM
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No joy, huh?
I did hear back from Ted. Said though he admits to bias, he believes his HG is the equal of Toyota's, and supplies it to some dealers who repackage it (can't imagine our local dealer doing that...).
Opinions?
I did hear back from Ted. Said though he admits to bias, he believes his HG is the equal of Toyota's, and supplies it to some dealers who repackage it (can't imagine our local dealer doing that...).
Opinions?
06-03-2008, 11:02 AM
#4
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Personally, from my experience and those who I've talked to, you'd be fine with either. I know people who've used Rock and/or Fel-Pro even and never had an abnormal problem as long as the installation was done well...ie, the headbolts and block threads were well cleaned and sealant was applied in the appropriate spots. I know some would disagree because their experience with Fel-Pro, but I can't explain that disrepancy.
Anyway, Rock headgaskets are a good product. I have some in my V6 and they are holding up well. Unfortunately, I can't tell you exactly how many miles are on them because the speed sensor had gone out for a time throwing my speedo and odo off. But, there's plenty 'nuff miles on them (and one serious collision) to say they're good.
The only differences I could point out is that Toyota, from what I've read here, has metal "grommets" in key areas around the bolt holes while Fel-Pro....for example.. supposedly does not. The one I put in mine did, though. Can't esplain that one, either.
As for the graphite material itself, Toyota uses them on some applications, also. 3.4, I do believe. So, yeah....engnblr=Toyota. Graphite moves well with the head. It seems to have been somewhat of a problem on larger engines, so the only way to do better really is with a MLS headgasket....which you obviously don't have.
To sum up, you'd be fine with either....IMO. Take the 'Yota gasket back and install the Rock. Just do a thorough job on the install.
Anyway, Rock headgaskets are a good product. I have some in my V6 and they are holding up well. Unfortunately, I can't tell you exactly how many miles are on them because the speed sensor had gone out for a time throwing my speedo and odo off. But, there's plenty 'nuff miles on them (and one serious collision) to say they're good.
The only differences I could point out is that Toyota, from what I've read here, has metal "grommets" in key areas around the bolt holes while Fel-Pro....for example.. supposedly does not. The one I put in mine did, though. Can't esplain that one, either.
As for the graphite material itself, Toyota uses them on some applications, also. 3.4, I do believe. So, yeah....engnblr=Toyota. Graphite moves well with the head. It seems to have been somewhat of a problem on larger engines, so the only way to do better really is with a MLS headgasket....which you obviously don't have.
To sum up, you'd be fine with either....IMO. Take the 'Yota gasket back and install the Rock. Just do a thorough job on the install.
06-03-2008, 11:37 AM
#6
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I might just add in some of EB's special head bolt torquing proceedures in case you haven't seen them. An even clamping force could be just as important as the "brand" of gasket.
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
>>>*Morning!
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
06-03-2008, 11:41 AM
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Interesting article. Yeah, this is the 22RE in the '93 in my sig.
Eh?
I've not heard the 5VZ-FE lumped in with the 3VZE very often!
FWIW, I am also using ARP studs in place of the bolts. Just a better way to do it. 80ft./lbs too.
[edit]Yep, that is the long way to torque a head all right... sounds like the right way too, though. Thanks for that.
The 1987-1996 Mitsubishi 3.0L V6, 1988-1995 Toyota 3VZE 3.0L V6 light truck engine, and 1995-1998 Toyota 5VZFE 3.4L V6 in T100s, Tacomas and 4Runners are all examples of engines with hard-to-seal heads and frequent head gasket failures.
I've not heard the 5VZ-FE lumped in with the 3VZE very often!
FWIW, I am also using ARP studs in place of the bolts. Just a better way to do it. 80ft./lbs too.
[edit]Yep, that is the long way to torque a head all right... sounds like the right way too, though. Thanks for that.
Last edited by Red_Chili; 06-03-2008 at 11:45 AM.
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06-04-2008, 05:14 AM
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06-04-2008, 05:16 AM
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06-04-2008, 09:54 AM
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Some of you folks who think that Toyota is king and bar none makes the best of this, that, or the other should consider many of the parts they supply aren't even made by them. What's more, Toyota even changes there OEM parts manufacturers from time to time. In which case, why can't some other aftermarket company make a product that's just as good if not better?
For example, you might be interested to know Fed-Mog is now supplying bearings for some new Toyota vehicles (even the 3.4, I believe).....a company a lot of people like to bash. They're actually now one of the top manufacturers in the world for materials and design.
Don't put yer eggs all in one basket....
06-04-2008, 10:07 AM
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True dat.
We have guys in our club who will only buy Toyota branded. That's fine, but no guarantee: their oil filters are sub par, and I can get the same Koyo bearings at NAPA, or CarQuest, for much much less.
A fella in our club bought a Toyota short block on the assumption that it would be significantly better than overhauling it himself. $1400 later, he has had nothing but issues. It would have been worth pulling the pistons to make sure the rings were properly clocked...
We have guys in our club who will only buy Toyota branded. That's fine, but no guarantee: their oil filters are sub par, and I can get the same Koyo bearings at NAPA, or CarQuest, for much much less.
A fella in our club bought a Toyota short block on the assumption that it would be significantly better than overhauling it himself. $1400 later, he has had nothing but issues. It would have been worth pulling the pistons to make sure the rings were properly clocked...
06-04-2008, 10:20 AM
#16
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Yeah the early 5VZs had a HG problem, IIRC there was a recall. The problem normally produced an external coolant leak, which if you have to have a HG leak is the best kind. 
Unlike the 3VZ which would mainly leak internally and screw the whole engine.
Unlike the 3VZ which would mainly leak internally and screw the whole engine.
Last edited by mt_goat; 06-04-2008 at 10:23 AM.
06-04-2008, 10:44 AM
#17
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Yep....there was a recall. Albeit a short one and not nearly as extensive as the 3vze. And, I do believe it was mainly the headgasket material used.
I was going to write this whole thing on Toyotas, head gaskets, etc. as compared to other vehicle/parts manufacturers, but long-made-short...
Thing of it is, aluminum heads and steels blocks are just not the best combo. For whatever reason one engine may last longer than the other, eventually headgaskets give out.....if you don't have other problems first that necessitate it's R/R.
I was going to write this whole thing on Toyotas, head gaskets, etc. as compared to other vehicle/parts manufacturers, but long-made-short...
Thing of it is, aluminum heads and steels blocks are just not the best combo. For whatever reason one engine may last longer than the other, eventually headgaskets give out.....if you don't have other problems first that necessitate it's R/R.
06-04-2008, 10:52 AM
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doesnt matter, most of them are being crushed...
Chili, you should come to PA and help me wrench like a pro...
06-04-2008, 12:06 PM
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True dat.
We have guys in our club who will only buy Toyota branded. That's fine, but no guarantee: their oil filters are sub par, and I can get the same Koyo bearings at NAPA, or CarQuest, for much much less.
A fella in our club bought a Toyota short block on the assumption that it would be significantly better than overhauling it himself. $1400 later, he has had nothing but issues. It would have been worth pulling the pistons to make sure the rings were properly clocked...
We have guys in our club who will only buy Toyota branded. That's fine, but no guarantee: their oil filters are sub par, and I can get the same Koyo bearings at NAPA, or CarQuest, for much much less.
A fella in our club bought a Toyota short block on the assumption that it would be significantly better than overhauling it himself. $1400 later, he has had nothing but issues. It would have been worth pulling the pistons to make sure the rings were properly clocked...
The only 'issue' I have not fully solved is EFI related, sometimes the idle comes back down to my set point (~1,000 RPM) and is smooth as can be, hardly any movement of the sticks, barely tell the engine is running. Other times it comes back down way low (about 600 RPM) and the engine shakes like crazy, sticks are jumping around, sounds like a Top Fuel car at the line with a monster cam lope. Haven't been able to figure out a pattern other than it seems somewhat temperature dependent. In the morning it's more likely to have a bad idle until I get it good and warm, then it's really random and will happen once every 10th stop or less. I'm fairly certain it's either the AFM (which I've unsealed and messed with due to the 261 cam, O/S valves, header, etc.) or the FPR or fuel pump. I've replaced a few parts, checked a few, made sure to burp the cooling system. There's just something I'm missing to solve this one, but it's not bad enough that it bothers me to get serious about solving it. Maybe next winter I will do something about it, since I'm figuring the most difficult and hard thing (fuel pump) will be the problem...
If I could slap myself with all the posts from club members (you primarily...) telling me to build it myself, well... But my short block is perfectly fine, the moron is the guy I see in the mirror. The block and head are new, but all the EFI, emissions and stuff are all 190,000 miles old and the old engine also didn't idle very well, so that the new one doesn't isn't really surprising.
BTW, I've used plenty of non-Toyota parts over the years. Different places I think you do get a better part or equal part at a better price. I buy my bearings at NAPA, for example. A Koyo is a Koyo, no matter who's box it comes in. Other times Toyota IS the best price/performance. Jerry's quote for ball joints was cheaper than NAPA and by a lot, for a very good part (Spicer in both cases AFAIK). I've been burned by trying non-OE stuff (metal timing guides) and so the threshold to stray from the flock has raised. I bought a Toyota due to reliability and just about every time I've tried something else I've been disappointed.
Keep in mind that non-Toyota part machine work I did when assembling my engine, too... ;-) Not a confidence building exercise. Missed little details often indicate potentially missed important details, too.
Edit to add actual on topic thoughts:
Sitting, thinking about this headgasket thing. Most people agree that getting an aluminum head to seal to an iron block has been a major problem for 25+ years now. Old engines, like the 20R, did fine with asbestos HG. It was when Toyota got away from asbestos that incidence of HG failures really went up. So I would have to assume a big company full of very smart engineers with money, equipment and labs to test ideas would be best equipped to find the right combination of materials and construction to solve it at a reasonable price. They have a vested interest in getting it right. So whether or not Toyota itself, Aisin, Delco, Fel-Pro or whoever manufacturers it, it will be to Toyota's spec and it's possible that ones in the red boxes are better even if they come from the same plant as the NAPA or Rock. Or not, might be exactly the same parts, so there's always that question. But I'd certainly bet on Toyota doing accelerated life tests back in Japan on production samples, the HG issues is really a nagging story that just keeping floating around. It's a black eye.
Last edited by DaveInDenver; 06-04-2008 at 01:18 PM.
