Headgasket 101 and discussion 22R/22RE
12-29-2010, 04:15 PM
#61
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Are there any "good" stories on the Rock HGs? Or the rebuild kits as a whole? All I seem to hear are negative.
And sorry but a few miles, ie: 2500 does not count. If it will last no longer than 10 or 15 thousand miles I'm personally not interested. Replacing a HG once a year is not an option.
And I will say I am not new at installing Hgs on my vehicles and I have had no problems so far, but this is my first round with the toyota.
And sorry but a few miles, ie: 2500 does not count. If it will last no longer than 10 or 15 thousand miles I'm personally not interested. Replacing a HG once a year is not an option.
And I will say I am not new at installing Hgs on my vehicles and I have had no problems so far, but this is my first round with the toyota.
01-18-2011, 09:22 AM
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wouldn't you know it...2k later and i've gotta dig back in. #4 is sucking coolant. this time i'm buying the $36 rock kit from EB for parts and spending the $50 at toyota for the OEM head gasket. just trying to keep my toyota running like a toyota.
01-18-2011, 09:30 AM
#63
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My Rock gasket has been on over a year and almost 7k on it. 170psi all cyls no coolant loss whatsoever.
more than half that time has been making a 45-50mph 3-4000 ft climb to work every day.
Decked block and brand new head. Using EB's torque recommendation and not the FSM rec.
more than half that time has been making a 45-50mph 3-4000 ft climb to work every day.
Decked block and brand new head. Using EB's torque recommendation and not the FSM rec.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 01-18-2011 at 09:32 AM.
better not start bragging the OEM has just over 1200 and don't want to jinx anything.
01-18-2011, 08:06 PM
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I rebuilt my 22RE a few years back. I used OEM parts with no problems. No time spent investigating something cheaper and no time spent digging back into it. I agree some factory parts are outrageously expensive, but it's worth it when it counts...
02-28-2011, 06:15 AM
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Good thread - adding to it since I had two rock headgaskets fail.
1st one >
- lasted 10-20k
- new EB
- block surface was thoroughly cleaned (not resurfaced though)
- ARP head studs
2nd HG >
1 - lasted 14k miles
2 - full rebuild (40 over) w/ resurfaced block
3 - resurfaced head - .008 taken off
4 - reused ARP head studs
5 - torque of studs checked several times - 500 miles, 1k, 2k, and 5k. (No longer needed torqued after it was checked at 2k.
Thread with pictures >
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...askets-229558/
1st one >
- lasted 10-20k
- new EB
- block surface was thoroughly cleaned (not resurfaced though)
- ARP head studs
2nd HG >
1 - lasted 14k miles
2 - full rebuild (40 over) w/ resurfaced block
3 - resurfaced head - .008 taken off
4 - reused ARP head studs
5 - torque of studs checked several times - 500 miles, 1k, 2k, and 5k. (No longer needed torqued after it was checked at 2k.
Thread with pictures >
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...askets-229558/
03-03-2011, 12:57 AM
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forgive me if it has been mentioned before on this thread but have any of you used topline head gasket kits? Yes they are of average quality.
I used them and the quality was close to oem and the price was fair as well. Why settle for "close to" oem quality when oem quality isn't that expensive? Rock and Topline are both about the same quality when you average it out. Rock has some nice gaskets. I really like the exhaust manifold and downpipe packing gaskets. I personally buy the Rock kit throw away the HG and use a Toyota oem headgasket.
I asked my 22re guy about the rock gaskets and he assured me the topline was a better quality kit. Not saying the rock is a bad kit or faulty in Any way but if a guy that has built 22r's/re's for 20+ years tells me the topline kit is a better kit i'm buying it. Just my thoughts. If i need another< god forbid, head gasket kit it'll be topline for sure. People are creatures of habit. There can be a million reasons a shop or person uses a certain product. How a company bills, how much credit was given when opening the account, how close the warehouse is, how much they charge for shipping, Volume discounts all these are factors why shops use one brand over another. Many times price and avalibility are slightly more important than quality.
I actually wonder why ted doesn't use their kit if he does in fact use the topline casting for his heads. If it's good enough for the head then why is it not good enough for the gasket? Maybe then again i'm missing something. And now we get to the MILLION dollar question. The answer is obvious really...... money. Rock is by far the cheepest product out there and Ted is a big retailer for them. An interesting note Rock does sell a head. I wonder why Ted doesn't use that head? It might be one of the heads from China that have issues who knows.
Its tough out there in buisness. Customers demand product, and they also demant it to be cheep. The only problem is cheep and quality rarely go together. There are always trade offs. Most companies are cought trying to balance "good enough" quality with cheep enough prices that they can make a good living. Profits drive most of these decisions and sometimes customers are the ones left holding the bag.
I used them and the quality was close to oem and the price was fair as well. Why settle for "close to" oem quality when oem quality isn't that expensive? Rock and Topline are both about the same quality when you average it out. Rock has some nice gaskets. I really like the exhaust manifold and downpipe packing gaskets. I personally buy the Rock kit throw away the HG and use a Toyota oem headgasket.
I asked my 22re guy about the rock gaskets and he assured me the topline was a better quality kit. Not saying the rock is a bad kit or faulty in Any way but if a guy that has built 22r's/re's for 20+ years tells me the topline kit is a better kit i'm buying it. Just my thoughts. If i need another< god forbid, head gasket kit it'll be topline for sure. People are creatures of habit. There can be a million reasons a shop or person uses a certain product. How a company bills, how much credit was given when opening the account, how close the warehouse is, how much they charge for shipping, Volume discounts all these are factors why shops use one brand over another. Many times price and avalibility are slightly more important than quality.
I actually wonder why ted doesn't use their kit if he does in fact use the topline casting for his heads. If it's good enough for the head then why is it not good enough for the gasket? Maybe then again i'm missing something. And now we get to the MILLION dollar question. The answer is obvious really...... money. Rock is by far the cheepest product out there and Ted is a big retailer for them. An interesting note Rock does sell a head. I wonder why Ted doesn't use that head? It might be one of the heads from China that have issues who knows.
Its tough out there in buisness. Customers demand product, and they also demant it to be cheep. The only problem is cheep and quality rarely go together. There are always trade offs. Most companies are cought trying to balance "good enough" quality with cheep enough prices that they can make a good living. Profits drive most of these decisions and sometimes customers are the ones left holding the bag.
TJM Motors
03-03-2011, 06:07 AM
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I'm currently doing a full rebuild on my 87 22r and it was a no brainer, rock gasket set with oem hg. I believe it was 43 from my dealer. I'm also using Toyota seals and w/p. I have used 2 fel-pro hg's in the past with good results. Both times on old blocks and in less then ideal conditions. I've too heard a lot of bad about rock but there is so much of their stuff out there that there is bound to be some bad, not all being mfr defects either. A lot of people (myself included) have thrown new hg's on un-machined blocks and heads with 200k miles re-using old head bolts and expect them to last forever. So I think a lot of failures across all brands are due to that. My last theory is a lot of people on yt use Eb rock stuff so of course we will hear more bad about them cause that's what everyone is using!
03-03-2011, 11:19 AM
#69
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every time iv had a head off a motor iv used felpro gaskets. i have never had a head gasket that i put on fail in the time iv own each car. some had properly machined heads and blocks others did not, i will mention though that the ones that were not machined were cast iron heads. every time iv had a aluminum head off iv at least had the head surface checked. im not saying felpro gaskets don't ever fail but iv always had great luck with them and don't plan on stopping using them any time soon.
03-03-2011, 11:05 PM
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every time iv had a head off a motor iv used felpro gaskets. i have never had a head gasket that i put on fail in the time iv own each car. some had properly machined heads and blocks others did not, i will mention though that the ones that were not machined were cast iron heads. every time iv had a aluminum head off iv at least had the head surface checked. im not saying felpro gaskets don't ever fail but iv always had great luck with them and don't plan on stopping using them any time soon.
The two last posts are good. Your post brings up an interesting thing.
Many times a product.... say Felpro works great in one perticular application. An example. Felpro HG's work great in SSB and Ford V-8 engines. I'd use them any time without a second thought. However I've seen, and heard of many issues with Felpro and 22R/22RE's.
Most things follow this pattern of not all things in a manufacturers line being "good"
04-13-2011, 03:09 PM
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This is a good thread to keep open.
I am interested in this statement:
"Fully rebuilt with proper surface finishes for graphite type head gaskets."
Also, I didn't see an example of the head gasket designed for the 22RET.
I got the Turbo head gasket from ENGBLDR and the slipperplate? covers almost the entire gasket. That was about 2 years ago and everything has been fine so far.
My old head gasket was leaking coolant into the engine at the #3 cylinder. The head was warped so I had a local salvage yard do the surface machining. The head came back with a terrible finish. There were many gouges and grooves in the head. I block sanded the head with course grit cloth from a belt sander cut to the size of my sanding block for several hours until the gouges and gashes were gone and then finish sanded the scratches until the surface was close to being fully polished. I tried to sand evenly to keep the head surface as flat as possible. I think I ended sanding with 720 grit paper until happy. I flushed as much of the grit away as possible. The surface felt smooth to my fingernail. I really think the surface finish is very important especially for the Turbo gasket with jumbo slipperplate? although I only have my one example. My 22re hasn't used a drop of coolant since changing the head gasket and there are still no other leaks. I am very happy with the Turbo head gasket even though I don't have the turbocharger and wonder about what might be the best surface finish.
The second special effect was to mod the rear hole in the head where the dowel sits. I slightly enlarged that hole to allow the head to slip without binding. The hole should ideally be oblong I imagine except I just made mine slightly larger. I was worried the head would expand and get pinned between the two dowels causing a warp someplace. I don't know if that really helped except there should be a way for the head to expand the normal amount gracefully and so far there have been no problems. I wonder if instead of letting the head give toward the back maybe I should have enlarged the front dowel hole in the head. Anyway, my turbo head gasket is still good after two years and maybe 15k. If this is bad I would be interested to know why.
I only recently found the probable cause of my overheating troubles and that was an ineffective after-market cooling fan clutch. I hope I solved this problem before the turbo head gasket was damaged. So far the head gasket is still good. I have installed an Aisin fan clutch because the cheap imitation fan clutch did not pull enough air through the radiator. I would recommend making sure there is a good wind coming from the radiator fan instead of just a slight breeze to prevent repeated head gasket failure. I learned that the hard way.
I like this thread.
I am interested in this statement:
"Fully rebuilt with proper surface finishes for graphite type head gaskets."
Also, I didn't see an example of the head gasket designed for the 22RET.
I got the Turbo head gasket from ENGBLDR and the slipperplate? covers almost the entire gasket. That was about 2 years ago and everything has been fine so far.
My old head gasket was leaking coolant into the engine at the #3 cylinder. The head was warped so I had a local salvage yard do the surface machining. The head came back with a terrible finish. There were many gouges and grooves in the head. I block sanded the head with course grit cloth from a belt sander cut to the size of my sanding block for several hours until the gouges and gashes were gone and then finish sanded the scratches until the surface was close to being fully polished. I tried to sand evenly to keep the head surface as flat as possible. I think I ended sanding with 720 grit paper until happy. I flushed as much of the grit away as possible. The surface felt smooth to my fingernail. I really think the surface finish is very important especially for the Turbo gasket with jumbo slipperplate? although I only have my one example. My 22re hasn't used a drop of coolant since changing the head gasket and there are still no other leaks. I am very happy with the Turbo head gasket even though I don't have the turbocharger and wonder about what might be the best surface finish.
The second special effect was to mod the rear hole in the head where the dowel sits. I slightly enlarged that hole to allow the head to slip without binding. The hole should ideally be oblong I imagine except I just made mine slightly larger. I was worried the head would expand and get pinned between the two dowels causing a warp someplace. I don't know if that really helped except there should be a way for the head to expand the normal amount gracefully and so far there have been no problems. I wonder if instead of letting the head give toward the back maybe I should have enlarged the front dowel hole in the head. Anyway, my turbo head gasket is still good after two years and maybe 15k. If this is bad I would be interested to know why.
I only recently found the probable cause of my overheating troubles and that was an ineffective after-market cooling fan clutch. I hope I solved this problem before the turbo head gasket was damaged. So far the head gasket is still good. I have installed an Aisin fan clutch because the cheap imitation fan clutch did not pull enough air through the radiator. I would recommend making sure there is a good wind coming from the radiator fan instead of just a slight breeze to prevent repeated head gasket failure. I learned that the hard way.
I like this thread.
04-14-2011, 01:46 PM
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This is a good thread to keep open.
I am interested in this statement:
"Fully rebuilt with proper surface finishes for graphite type head gaskets."
There are a few different types of Headgasket materials. Most newer vehicles use graphite, some use MLS or multi-layer metal type gaskets, etc. Each type has a specific range of RA or surface finish that is recommended.
Also, I didn't see an example of the head gasket designed for the 22RET.
I got the Turbo head gasket from ENGBLDR and the slipperplate? covers almost the entire gasket. That was about 2 years ago and everything has been fine so far.
I just got off the phone with Toyota to verify. The turbo and non-turbo headgasket is the SAME from Toyota. The head and block are also the same casting for turbo and non-turbo. The head is simply ported in the chamber more, and the block is drilled for the turbo oil return and pressure lines.
The D&J Rock Products (Engnbldr) Headgasket is an exact copy of a factory Toyota part. The only difference is Rock is imprinted into the Rock gasket and Toyota has a 3 digit number stamped into the corner. **** Special note **** An exact copy by appearence does not always mean exact copy of materials, quality, or longevity.
The head was warped so I had a local salvage yard do the surface machining. The head came back with a terrible finish. There were many gouges and grooves in the head. I block sanded the head.....
**** This part of your post is VERY important. There are a few types of surface machines. The common type is broken into two types again. They are both Rotary Broach surfacers. One is a CBN the other is a Carbide type.
A CBN cutter is overhead, and the cutter moves across the head. This type leaves a VERY nice finish but the machine is 5 times as expensive.
The Carbide is usually an older machine where the head is bolted to a table and the table and head slides over the top of a rotary cutter. Depending on the material this type of cutter can leave a HORRIBLE finish which tears and rips the surface. Most are 2 speed, way too slow and way too fast. Most shops that use them use the fast speed.
Toyota heads cut on this type of machine almost always have a very poor surface cut. Large tears, deep cut grooves, etc usually worse on the exhaust side of the head surface.
In my opinion Toyota heads should only be re-surfaced on a CBN style cutter. The head should be cut to almost a mirror finish and the block should have a slightly rougher RA (nearly mirror).
***Warped Head. A warped head should be straightened. You can surface the head making the bottom flat but that doesn't straighten the cam line. If a cam does not turn freely by hand in the head. The head should not be used or should be fixed.
**** Sanding or air powered 3M disks. It is not recommended to use these on an Aluminum head.
The second special effect was to mod the rear hole in the head where the dowel sits. I slightly enlarged that hole to allow the head to slip without binding. The hole should ideally be oblong I imagine except I just made mine slightly larger. I was worried the head would expand and get pinned between the two dowels causing a warp someplace.
There is no need to modify the dowel holes. They work fine for 300,000 + miles on factory motors. Furthermore, enlarging them can allow you to bolt your head slightly off center. The fire ring of the HG comes very close to the water ports. Any misalignment could cause issues.
I only recently found the probable cause of my overheating troubles and that was an ineffective after-market cooling fan clutch.
I have seen many times where a person works on a vehicle to replace a part but does not consider why that part failed. I have seen people install a clogged radiator with a rebuilt engine, causing the new engine to overheat and fail.
As you found with the Aftermarket clutch fan, many times aftermarket parts are just not quality. Factory Toyota parts however are very high quality. I recommend using them as much as possible.
I like this thread.
I am interested in this statement:
"Fully rebuilt with proper surface finishes for graphite type head gaskets."
There are a few different types of Headgasket materials. Most newer vehicles use graphite, some use MLS or multi-layer metal type gaskets, etc. Each type has a specific range of RA or surface finish that is recommended.
Also, I didn't see an example of the head gasket designed for the 22RET.
I got the Turbo head gasket from ENGBLDR and the slipperplate? covers almost the entire gasket. That was about 2 years ago and everything has been fine so far.
I just got off the phone with Toyota to verify. The turbo and non-turbo headgasket is the SAME from Toyota. The head and block are also the same casting for turbo and non-turbo. The head is simply ported in the chamber more, and the block is drilled for the turbo oil return and pressure lines.
The D&J Rock Products (Engnbldr) Headgasket is an exact copy of a factory Toyota part. The only difference is Rock is imprinted into the Rock gasket and Toyota has a 3 digit number stamped into the corner. **** Special note **** An exact copy by appearence does not always mean exact copy of materials, quality, or longevity.
The head was warped so I had a local salvage yard do the surface machining. The head came back with a terrible finish. There were many gouges and grooves in the head. I block sanded the head.....
**** This part of your post is VERY important. There are a few types of surface machines. The common type is broken into two types again. They are both Rotary Broach surfacers. One is a CBN the other is a Carbide type.
A CBN cutter is overhead, and the cutter moves across the head. This type leaves a VERY nice finish but the machine is 5 times as expensive.
The Carbide is usually an older machine where the head is bolted to a table and the table and head slides over the top of a rotary cutter. Depending on the material this type of cutter can leave a HORRIBLE finish which tears and rips the surface. Most are 2 speed, way too slow and way too fast. Most shops that use them use the fast speed.
Toyota heads cut on this type of machine almost always have a very poor surface cut. Large tears, deep cut grooves, etc usually worse on the exhaust side of the head surface.
In my opinion Toyota heads should only be re-surfaced on a CBN style cutter. The head should be cut to almost a mirror finish and the block should have a slightly rougher RA (nearly mirror).
***Warped Head. A warped head should be straightened. You can surface the head making the bottom flat but that doesn't straighten the cam line. If a cam does not turn freely by hand in the head. The head should not be used or should be fixed.
**** Sanding or air powered 3M disks. It is not recommended to use these on an Aluminum head.
The second special effect was to mod the rear hole in the head where the dowel sits. I slightly enlarged that hole to allow the head to slip without binding. The hole should ideally be oblong I imagine except I just made mine slightly larger. I was worried the head would expand and get pinned between the two dowels causing a warp someplace.
There is no need to modify the dowel holes. They work fine for 300,000 + miles on factory motors. Furthermore, enlarging them can allow you to bolt your head slightly off center. The fire ring of the HG comes very close to the water ports. Any misalignment could cause issues.
I only recently found the probable cause of my overheating troubles and that was an ineffective after-market cooling fan clutch.
I have seen many times where a person works on a vehicle to replace a part but does not consider why that part failed. I have seen people install a clogged radiator with a rebuilt engine, causing the new engine to overheat and fail.
As you found with the Aftermarket clutch fan, many times aftermarket parts are just not quality. Factory Toyota parts however are very high quality. I recommend using them as much as possible.
I like this thread.
Have a great day !!
Last edited by Trainwreckinseattle; 04-14-2011 at 01:54 PM.
04-14-2011, 04:56 PM
#73
HEAD GASKETS
...To make matters worse, many head gaskets find themselves sandwiched between dissimilar metals that have different rates of thermal expansion. Most late-model engines have aluminum cylinder heads and cast iron blocks. Aluminum expands and contracts at over twice the rate of cast iron. This creates a lot of back-and-forth scrubbing on both surfaces of the head gasket that can literally tear a gasket apart over time if it is not designed to handle this kind of movement.
One way gasket manufacturers combat the scrubbing problem in bimetal engines is to apply nonstick coatings to their head gaskets. Most head gaskets today are a composite design with a soft nonasbestos facing material or graphite on a solid or perforated steel core. Teflon, molybdenum and similar coatings are used to prevent the gasket from sticking to either surface, allowing the head to expand and contract without ripping the gasket apart. This is the opposite approach to what was, and still is, used on many head gaskets for cast-iron engines. On these applications, raised silicone sealing beads are often used to improve cold sealing. The added thickness of the bead increases the clamping pressure in critical areas of the gasket, but also increases the grip against the head and block. This works fine if the head and block expand at the same rate, but it can create shearing forces in the gasket if the engine has an aluminum cylinder head.
On many late-model engines, the OEM head gaskets are graphite because graphite has natural lubricity to handle the differences in expansion between aluminum heads and cast iron blocks. Graphite is also a relatively soft material that has excellent cold sealing properties, and it can withstand high temperatures. It is an "anisotropic" material that can draw heat away from hot spots to reduce thermal stress and loading. But graphite is also expensive and more difficult to manufacture.
...
Smoothness has become a major issue with bi-metal engines because the difference in thermal expansion rates between an aluminum head and cast iron block create a tremendous amount of sideways shearing force and scrubbing action on the head gasket. If the surface finish is too rough (more than about 60 RA), the metal will bite into the gasket and pull it sideways as the head expands and contracts. The cumulative effect over time can cause a delaminating effect in the gasket, literally tearing it apart and causing it to leak and fail.
...To make matters worse, many head gaskets find themselves sandwiched between dissimilar metals that have different rates of thermal expansion. Most late-model engines have aluminum cylinder heads and cast iron blocks. Aluminum expands and contracts at over twice the rate of cast iron. This creates a lot of back-and-forth scrubbing on both surfaces of the head gasket that can literally tear a gasket apart over time if it is not designed to handle this kind of movement.
One way gasket manufacturers combat the scrubbing problem in bimetal engines is to apply nonstick coatings to their head gaskets. Most head gaskets today are a composite design with a soft nonasbestos facing material or graphite on a solid or perforated steel core. Teflon, molybdenum and similar coatings are used to prevent the gasket from sticking to either surface, allowing the head to expand and contract without ripping the gasket apart. This is the opposite approach to what was, and still is, used on many head gaskets for cast-iron engines. On these applications, raised silicone sealing beads are often used to improve cold sealing. The added thickness of the bead increases the clamping pressure in critical areas of the gasket, but also increases the grip against the head and block. This works fine if the head and block expand at the same rate, but it can create shearing forces in the gasket if the engine has an aluminum cylinder head.
On many late-model engines, the OEM head gaskets are graphite because graphite has natural lubricity to handle the differences in expansion between aluminum heads and cast iron blocks. Graphite is also a relatively soft material that has excellent cold sealing properties, and it can withstand high temperatures. It is an "anisotropic" material that can draw heat away from hot spots to reduce thermal stress and loading. But graphite is also expensive and more difficult to manufacture.
...
Smoothness has become a major issue with bi-metal engines because the difference in thermal expansion rates between an aluminum head and cast iron block create a tremendous amount of sideways shearing force and scrubbing action on the head gasket. If the surface finish is too rough (more than about 60 RA), the metal will bite into the gasket and pull it sideways as the head expands and contracts. The cumulative effect over time can cause a delaminating effect in the gasket, literally tearing it apart and causing it to leak and fail.
You've taken away the dowel's ability to help limit the some of the sideways movement between the head and block. That's not going to be good for the head gasket in the long run either. And that's what's really trying to be addressed here in this thread. That being ways to limit the amount of damage to the head gasket from any potential slipping/shearing/scrubbing action on the surfaces of the head gasket that eventually lead to leakage/failure. More slip = more potential damage. Toyota knows what they're doing(atleast they used to...for the most part).
Last edited by MudHippy; 04-15-2011 at 10:21 AM.
04-16-2011, 07:54 AM
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Thanks MudHippy for the excellent link. That has some of the best information I have ever seen about head gasket design and surface finishes.
When inspecting my 22RE head, I was really surprised the Toyota design did not have one tight fitting round hole and one slotted hole to be controlled by the dowels. I have always been taught to beware of over-constraining an assembly and wanted to avoid a condition leading to a warped head. A warped head is very bad for the head gasket.
I admit I should probably have elongated the hole instead of enlarging the hole. I probably enlarged the hole by .020" or so. I don't know what the thermal expansion would amount to for the Toyota aluminum and that probably depends on the constitution of the metal possibly including copper or zinc additives. I also didn't have the instruments to verify the amount of expandability built into the head from the factory due to the play in the dowel holes and just figured there wasn't enough and that might have caused the previous warping.
Yes, my mod really isn't the best way to solve the problem. I still worry about the possibility for the increased movement of the head from side to side because of my mod. I expect the forces on the head to predominate in the fore and aft direction due to the thermal expansion with little mechanical force acting to move the head sideways and so far so good. I agree the extra movement of the head would be bad for the head gasket in the long run if the head gasket could not tolerate that type of movement.
Would the objection to my mod still apply if I had only slotted the hole in the head? Then there wouldn't be any added slipping of the head from side to side while still allowing for the required fore and aft expansion and contraction. I expect the forces due to thermal expansion to be on the order of many tons with the dowels and head bolts reacting to that force. I worry that force could put the head into a bind if not avoided and cause the head to warp again leading to a head gasket failure.
I wonder if using the OEM head gasket designed for the 22RET is better for the 22RE in every case compared to the OEM 22RE gasket. The Turbo head gasket has a very large slipper plate and would seem to be better at allowing for the expansion and contraction in my opinion in addition to the higher combustion chamber pressures. The Turbo head gasket from ENGNBLDR is supposed to be a clone of the OEM 22RET head gasket except maybe the OEM 22RET head gasket is even better.
When inspecting my 22RE head, I was really surprised the Toyota design did not have one tight fitting round hole and one slotted hole to be controlled by the dowels. I have always been taught to beware of over-constraining an assembly and wanted to avoid a condition leading to a warped head. A warped head is very bad for the head gasket.
The second special effect was to mod the rear hole in the head where the dowel sits...If this is bad I would be interested to know why.
You've taken away the dowel's ability to help limit the some of the sideways movement between the head and block. That's not going to be good for the head gasket in the long run either. And that's what's really trying to be addressed here in this thread. That being ways to limit the amount of damage to the head gasket from any potential slipping/shearing/scrubbing action on the surfaces of the head gasket that eventually lead to leakage/failure. More slip = more potential damage. Toyota knows what they're doing(atleast they used to...for the most part).
Would the objection to my mod still apply if I had only slotted the hole in the head? Then there wouldn't be any added slipping of the head from side to side while still allowing for the required fore and aft expansion and contraction. I expect the forces due to thermal expansion to be on the order of many tons with the dowels and head bolts reacting to that force. I worry that force could put the head into a bind if not avoided and cause the head to warp again leading to a head gasket failure.
I wonder if using the OEM head gasket designed for the 22RET is better for the 22RE in every case compared to the OEM 22RE gasket. The Turbo head gasket has a very large slipper plate and would seem to be better at allowing for the expansion and contraction in my opinion in addition to the higher combustion chamber pressures. The Turbo head gasket from ENGNBLDR is supposed to be a clone of the OEM 22RET head gasket except maybe the OEM 22RET head gasket is even better.
09-19-2011, 07:42 AM
#76
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Thanks MudHippy for the excellent link. That has some of the best information I have ever seen about head gasket design and surface finishes.
When inspecting my 22RE head, I was really surprised the Toyota design did not have one tight fitting round hole and one slotted hole to be controlled by the dowels. I have always been taught to beware of over-constraining an assembly and wanted to avoid a condition leading to a warped head. A warped head is very bad for the head gasket.
I admit I should probably have elongated the hole instead of enlarging the hole. I probably enlarged the hole by .020" or so. I don't know what the thermal expansion would amount to for the Toyota aluminum and that probably depends on the constitution of the metal possibly including copper or zinc additives. I also didn't have the instruments to verify the amount of expandability built into the head from the factory due to the play in the dowel holes and just figured there wasn't enough and that might have caused the previous warping.
Yes, my mod really isn't the best way to solve the problem. I still worry about the possibility for the increased movement of the head from side to side because of my mod. I expect the forces on the head to predominate in the fore and aft direction due to the thermal expansion with little mechanical force acting to move the head sideways and so far so good. I agree the extra movement of the head would be bad for the head gasket in the long run if the head gasket could not tolerate that type of movement.
Would the objection to my mod still apply if I had only slotted the hole in the head? Then there wouldn't be any added slipping of the head from side to side while still allowing for the required fore and aft expansion and contraction. I expect the forces due to thermal expansion to be on the order of many tons with the dowels and head bolts reacting to that force. I worry that force could put the head into a bind if not avoided and cause the head to warp again leading to a head gasket failure.
I wonder if using the OEM head gasket designed for the 22RET is better for the 22RE in every case compared to the OEM 22RE gasket. The Turbo head gasket has a very large slipper plate and would seem to be better at allowing for the expansion and contraction in my opinion in addition to the higher combustion chamber pressures. The Turbo head gasket from ENGNBLDR is supposed to be a clone of the OEM 22RET head gasket except maybe the OEM 22RET head gasket is even better.
When inspecting my 22RE head, I was really surprised the Toyota design did not have one tight fitting round hole and one slotted hole to be controlled by the dowels. I have always been taught to beware of over-constraining an assembly and wanted to avoid a condition leading to a warped head. A warped head is very bad for the head gasket.
I admit I should probably have elongated the hole instead of enlarging the hole. I probably enlarged the hole by .020" or so. I don't know what the thermal expansion would amount to for the Toyota aluminum and that probably depends on the constitution of the metal possibly including copper or zinc additives. I also didn't have the instruments to verify the amount of expandability built into the head from the factory due to the play in the dowel holes and just figured there wasn't enough and that might have caused the previous warping.
Yes, my mod really isn't the best way to solve the problem. I still worry about the possibility for the increased movement of the head from side to side because of my mod. I expect the forces on the head to predominate in the fore and aft direction due to the thermal expansion with little mechanical force acting to move the head sideways and so far so good. I agree the extra movement of the head would be bad for the head gasket in the long run if the head gasket could not tolerate that type of movement.
Would the objection to my mod still apply if I had only slotted the hole in the head? Then there wouldn't be any added slipping of the head from side to side while still allowing for the required fore and aft expansion and contraction. I expect the forces due to thermal expansion to be on the order of many tons with the dowels and head bolts reacting to that force. I worry that force could put the head into a bind if not avoided and cause the head to warp again leading to a head gasket failure.
I wonder if using the OEM head gasket designed for the 22RET is better for the 22RE in every case compared to the OEM 22RE gasket. The Turbo head gasket has a very large slipper plate and would seem to be better at allowing for the expansion and contraction in my opinion in addition to the higher combustion chamber pressures. The Turbo head gasket from ENGNBLDR is supposed to be a clone of the OEM 22RET head gasket except maybe the OEM 22RET head gasket is even better.
Here are my thoughts. When the head and block start to expand from thermal expansion, the forces are huge. That little 6mm pin is not going to do much to restrain the head. The hole in the head will give a little bit around that dowel and I did find that one of mine was wallered out a bit. Think it was the rear one, but not sure.
IMHO, those pins are there to help hold the head gasket in place and line up the head properly when assembling it. If not, the head bolt holes and head bolts would have to very precisely machined, and unnecessarily add to the expense of the engine. I don't think the dowels are there to restrain the head from thermal expansion, they are way to small to withstand the forces involved.
As long as you got the head and gasket on straight and aligned, I don't think you did any harm by enlarging the dowel hole.
Bob
08-05-2012, 08:23 PM
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I have been building Toyota and Datsun 4 cyl for 15+ years and recently after breaking a piston in my 4 runner and then doing a rebuild I blew the head gasket during the cam break in...I was 15 min. into a 20 min. run. Figured it was just one of those things changed out the head gasket and within 5 min. popped it again. I am beyond baffled as to whats going on Ive never had this kind of trouble before. Both gaskets were fel-pro, the block was checked out on the first build and the head psi. tested. The block is coming back out and going to the shop for another go-round. The deck was true and the cylinder head surface appeared to be flawless. Ive never used the copper stuff but have always used aluminum paint with perfect results....until now. If the block and head check out I am gonna try a dry install of an OEM gasket and maye I'll throw some ARP's in. I am beyond frustrated at this point two head gaskets blown during the first heat cycle 
I was half tempted to roll the thing out into the ditch and put a road flare in the filler tube
I should know by weds. if Im gonna have a car-ba-que..
I was half tempted to roll the thing out into the ditch and put a road flare in the filler tube I should know by weds. if Im gonna have a car-ba-que..
08-05-2012, 08:32 PM
#79
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edit Scratch that, the headgasket is the same, the overhaul gasket set is different.
So it all depends on what his SET contains and why they would be different.
So it all depends on what his SET contains and why they would be different.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 08-05-2012 at 08:38 PM.
08-05-2012, 10:10 PM
#80
I have been building Toyota and Datsun 4 cyl for 15+ years and recently after breaking a piston in my 4 runner and then doing a rebuild I blew the head gasket during the cam break in...I was 15 min. into a 20 min. run. Figured it was just one of those things changed out the head gasket and within 5 min. popped it again. I am beyond baffled as to whats going on Ive never had this kind of trouble before. Both gaskets were fel-pro, the block was checked out on the first build and the head psi. tested. The block is coming back out and going to the shop for another go-round. The deck was true and the cylinder head surface appeared to be flawless. Ive never used the copper stuff but have always used aluminum paint with perfect results....until now. If the block and head check out I am gonna try a dry install of an OEM gasket and maye I'll throw some ARP's in. I am beyond frustrated at this point two head gaskets blown during the first heat cycle I was half tempted to roll the thing out into the ditch and put a road flare in the filler tube I should know by weds. if Im gonna have a car-ba-que..
I was half tempted to roll the thing out into the ditch and put a road flare in the filler tube I should know by weds. if Im gonna have a car-ba-que..
I had a VERY experienced guy doing this re-HG job after fully rebuilding.... and he couldn't see ANYTHING wrong, with the HG, with the surface, ....nothing. He still brings it up, like "WTH was that... oh well". hahaha.
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 08-05-2012 at 10:11 PM.
