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Rad4Runner's Also has Hard-Start (hot or cold) and Rough Idle when cold
Hi Wally and Yota Brothers/Sisters,
Were you able to find a good fuel pressure kit similar to this on your post that works well? Does the kit have all the necessary fittings to adapt to the CSI port?
I removed my CSI timer switch from port and tested it. It has carbon deposits around the housing as expected, but filled the plastic bag i wrapped it when with good amount of fuel upon cranking.
Wrapped it with plastic bag to catch fuel, because I did not have an assistant.
Bag filled with fuel after a little cranking.
Also tried cranking when water temp gage was in operating temp and had same hard-start issue.
When I press the gas pedal a little bit while cranking, it catches better. As soon as combustion starts she runs very well. Last Thanksgiving trip to Vegas, I got 22MPG and 23MPG FWY on 2 tank-fulls
Now suspecting:
(1) Low fuel pressure - I can monitor with setup like what Wally has here,
(2) MAF flap not opening enough or getting stuck, so that once normal air flow is established, it works fine? Terry mentioned somewhere about propping flap open while cranking.
Terry,
How much should I leave the flap open? I have not seen the flap yet but will try a soon as I have idea how much opening I should use.
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 12-14-2015 at 02:13 PM.
i ordered a kit from LC engineering. it includes a gauge and a union bolt with a threaded end to insert the gauge, and an elbow. everything needed. however, the gauge itself is garbage. it works for about one to two weeks, then stops functioning. LCE replaced the first one free of charge.
i ordered a liquid-filled gauge from northern tool, and went to the local hardware store for a brass adapter to mate the gauge to the union bolt (different sizes). i eliminated the elbow from the LCE kit (and their gauge).
if you could find a union bolt with a tapped/threaded end, you could make that work.
without knowing for certain what the fuel pressure is, everything else is guess work, and may not be necessary.
i see your question about what setup i've used, and its durability. the LCE gauge isn't durable, and didn't last. it was NOT liquid filled. i believe that the liquid filled gauge from NT will be durable. it is a "permanent" installation for me, so i'll find out. the NT gauge doesn't come with any means of attaching to the stock hard line. i used the LCE union bolt from their kit, a hardware store adapter, and the NT gauge. you might be able to purchase just the union bolt that is adapted to accept a threaded gauge from LCE, rather than the entire kit. i don't know.
without knowing for certain what the fuel pressure is, everything else is guess work, and may not be necessary.
Exactly my thoughts. I want to be sure what really causes the problem and that problem disappears after I address it.
Do you think the CSI port is the least intrusive place for a pressure gauge?
Originally Posted by wallytoo
a kit from LC engineering. ... however, the gauge itself is garbage. it works for about one to two weeks, then stops functioning. LCE replaced the first one free of charge.
I ordered a liquid-filled gauge from northern tool, and went to the local hardware store for a brass adapter to mate the gauge to the union bolt (different sizes). I eliminated the elbow from the LCE kit (and their gauge).
if you could find a union bolt with a tapped/threaded end, you could make that work.
Thanks!
Found the kit: http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm
The NT gauge will definitely be an option. I'll check LCE what the thread is on its union bolt, because I like minimal parts.
P.S.
I also want to eliminate doubt on coolant seeping into one of the cylinders because our Civic had that issue that also caused hard-starts. I'll find a thread on coolant loss regarding that.
Thanks, Wally, for the ideas! I found what I need:
Fuel Pressure Bolt, 1/8-inch NPT, LCE PN 1093076 here, AND
Glycerin-filled pressure switch with compatible 1/8-inch NPT thread! from Northern Tools here.
Hi guys,
While waiting for my fuel pressure gauge from Northern Tool, I tried 4Crawler's approach where he connected the vacuum directly to the Fuel Pressure Regulator (That's the one behind and below the intake manifold, correct?) shown on 4Crawler's Webpage Here
So far, the hard starts went away. Is there any known drawback to rolling this way? According to 4Crawler, he hasn't seen any issue.
Stock Vacuum Hose Routing:
Modified like 4Crawler's:
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 12-19-2015 at 08:47 PM.
Reason: Tried 4Crawler VSV for FPR Delete
So... after I tried 4Crawler's approach of connecting FPR directly to the vacuum above), hard-starts went away.
However, not sure if there is any drawback, I reverted to stock... Guess what... hard-starts still NOT happening anymore. hmmm....
Could it be:
(1) Disconnecting and connecting (possible stiff, old) vacuum hoses improved seal at ports?
(2) FPR was mechanically-stuck and connecting it directly to vacuum exercised it and got it unstuck?
(3) Crud in fuel system that finally got dislodged? (Unfortunately, I do not have my ordered fuel pressure gage for objective monitoring, yet)
your thoughts, please?
coincidence more than likely. disturbing the vacuum lines didn't change the internals of the fuel rail/fuel system. the hard starts associated with a failing fpr are usually because of leakage past the diaphragm within the fpr, allowing unmetered fuel to enter the plenum through the vacuum line, causing a very rich condition, which makes for hard starts.
you can certainly run the fpr directly off of the plenum, without the vsv. right now, because my 6th pump is also failing, i'm running without the vacuum line attached to the fpr at all, to get max available fuel pressure.
The fuel pressure up vsv vents from fpr to atmosphere (no vacuum) when the temp switch in the top of the thermostat housing is above a certain temperature. It's for heat soak conditions where there might be bubbles of boiled gas in the lines. The higher fuel pressure enabled by the switch & vsv during start is intended to purge the fuel lines quickly of this and prevent a hard start.
At least that is how I understand it, maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong!
I've been tinkering with this for 4 months. Threw a working (used) coil/ICM and pickup coil at it with no help. The best I got was that it would consistently fire up strong for a half second before starting the misfire so that was my chance to rev it up past the 2000 RPM point needed to snap it out of the misfire.
My head gasket went a few weeks ago. I just picked up a cheap daily driver so I can have a backup vehicle while I go off the deep end: I'm going the way of Jennygirl - motor swap. Chevy LS-based V8 is my current goal.
Whoa nice, sounds like it's going to be a monster!
Yeah the feeling of having to give up on the 22re kinda sucks, I still love that motor and I do miss it for it's low end bite! But for all of its simplicities and good points, it has an almost equal amount of gremlins. Gremlins gremlins gremlins. One of the best feelings I get about my truck now (after swapping) is when I start it up, and immediately it starts ticking away in perfect rhythm. No longer do I wait for the ecu to enter closed loop and wonder if the gear shift is about to start spasming every few seconds due to a slight miss.
Smooth idle spells sweet relief as a 22re widow. OM617 forever club
That said, I am still happy to share the knowledge I gained chasing all of those EFI related gremlins Keep em coming, boys!
The fuel pressure up vsv vents from fpr to atmosphere (no vacuum) when the temp switch in the top of the thermostat housing is above a certain temperature. It's for heat soak conditions where there might be bubbles of boiled gas in the lines. The higher fuel pressure enabled by the switch & vsv during start is intended to purge the fuel lines quickly of this and prevent a hard start.
At least that is how I understand it, maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong!
That is correct, Jennygirl. Confirmed with an article that Scope103 shared on a separate post...
So folks... I received the liquid-filled fuel pressure gauge from Northern Tool and am getting ready to install piggy-backed on the cold start injector (CSI), but before I proceed I need you help with info I could not find from my FSM nor searches...
1) Is it OK to reuse the CSI install gasket (below)?
2) FSM does not mention any kind of sealant, and I did not see evidence of any when I removed it last time, so perfectly OK to do same?
3) What torque should I use on the CSI mounting bolts that go on the manifold, just standard torque for M6 bolt?
4) As for the retrofit union bolt, I'll ask LCE support, but would appreciate your comments on this.
Thanks!
i didn't remove my CSI to install the gauge, just pulled the union bolt and replaced it with the special one. i DID replace the union copper washers (2). however, i've removed the CSI from the plenum several times, and i have yet to replace that gasket. it shouldn't be as crucial as the fuel line gaskets, as it is not sealing fuel, rather air/fuel mixture. as long as the gasket doesn't appear deformed/bent/dented/pocked, it should be fine to reuse. i didn't have a torque value to use, either. just snugged them gently with a ratchet. no need to bear down. the fuel fitting, i gradually tighten until it stops leaking.
i didn't remove my CSI to install the gauge, just pulled the union bolt and replaced it with the special one. i DID replace the union copper washers (2). however, i've removed the CSI from the plenum several times, and i have yet to replace that gasket. it shouldn't be as crucial as the fuel line gaskets, as it is not sealing fuel, rather air/fuel mixture. as long as the gasket doesn't appear deformed/bent/dented/pocked, it should be fine to reuse. i didn't have a torque value to use, either. just snugged them gently with a ratchet. no need to bear down. the fuel fitting, i gradually tighten until it stops leaking.
wally
Thanks, Wally.
Oh I see, the union bolt simple screws into the back of the CSI. I'll take out the CSI again to clean it, however.
How's yours holding up? No issues with vibration and the weight of the gauge?
BTW, I learned more about the CSI system (on my thread here) from digging into it
Happy New Year!
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 01-02-2016 at 01:34 PM.
fuel pump that has been gradually failing for the last month quit today. oh joy. next will be number 7 (or is it 8 - i've lost track). just filled the damn tank, too. at least the pressure gauge from northern tool still seems to work.
YEAH!
Easy Install! I also took out the CSI to clean it.
Torqued finger-tight My index and ring fingers on back-up wrench on CSI, thumb on ratchet on LCE banjo bolt. I'm a 135-pound weakling so that should not be too tight, correct?
Fuel pressure with ignition on and fuel pump test connector jumped: 40psi
Turned off fuel pump and pressure held at 38psi for more than 7 minutes.
When engine running cold: pressure at 32psi. Will check later with hot engine.
Wally,
Sorry about your fuel pumps Have you looked closely to see what the failures were? Did they stop working electrically like the windings opened/overheated/burnt? Or did they keep on working (like turning sound) but no fuel coming out?
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 01-08-2016 at 10:03 PM.
they have failed in different ways. one probably failed mechanically, the others are a mix of low output/insufficient pressure or intermittent operation. the intermittent ones could sometimes be "convinced" to work by banging the pump housing.
three still pump fuel, but do not push enough fuel to create 30 psi or more.
just monitor the fittings for leaks. if no leaks, you should be fine. otherwise, adjust incrementally.
fuel pressure gauge is doing its job. yesterday, had a difficult cold start. popped the hood, pressure (while running) was about 26 psi. pinched the return line, and pressure shot up to 37. without the gauge, i'd have no way to know whether the pump was the issue or not (with the gauge, the problem is clearly the fuel pressure regulator). after repeated pinching/unpinching the return line, the FPR began to function correctly, holding pressure at 30 psi. time to purchase another FPR, though. this will only be the 4th FPR in less than 3 years of ownership (hey, that's half the number of fuel pumps).
a functional pressure gauge is invaluable, and is worth installing.
12-14-2015, 02:09 PM
Keep em coming, boys!
Have you looked closely to see what the failures were? Did they stop working electrically like the windings opened/overheated/burnt? Or did they keep on working (like turning sound) but no fuel coming out?
