fireman1559

i was just sittin here lookin at my jegs and summit catalogs and ive seen guys put remote electric water pumps and electric fans on motors that u cant get electric water pumps that fit to the block what do yall think and remeber this is just for fun im not being serious

abecedarian

hmm...
if I was gonna be serious about re-working the stock cooling system on a 22r/re... I'd make it a reverse cooling system where cold water entered the head first then was pumped down through the block.
electric fans at this point are moot since even if it takes 12 hp to run a mechanical fan, it'll take an average of 12 hp to power the alternator in order to supply power for an electrical fan... and maybe actually more.
... thus resulting in a net zero increase in economy.

fireman1559

well upgrade ur alternator but at that point ur right it wouldnt be worth it

abecedarian

but from an efficiency standpoint, the block can withstand higher temps than the cylinder head... and considering a traditional cooling system cools the block first, why should the head NOT get the cooler water first? then you could run more advance and leaner mixtures, which heat the head more and contribute to more efficiency, then send the extra heat to the block which can withstand the extra heat... and which will give up the extra heat to the cooling system anyways.

jason191918

I'm sure there's a logical explanation for this...

T-1000

IDK...Cold coolant meeting a hot head or cylinder wall passage might cause too much metal stress.

abecedarian

google it up.

and the coolant hitting the head wouldn't be any cooler than the coolant hitting the block in a normal circulation system... and the block ain't cracking is it?
it'd just have some more room for thermal absorption and expansion.

abecedarian

and when you consider that in a typical cast iron block / aluminum head configuration, the head usually suffers warpage durring overheating, wouldn't it make more sense for the head to get the cooler water first anyways?

jason191918

Maybe Al is more prone to warping than cast iron, especially considering how it is thinner.

91Toyota

Funny...I mentioned this to my brothers (electric fan puts stress on the alternator) and they said the engine is spinning anyway but they didn't listen. LOL. Back to the fun...

Just Learning

isnt the vette a reverse flow cooling??? ithought(thats my problem i was thinking) i read something on the vette cooling

Noltz

Check those numbers. I think you dropped a decimal;

1HP = 746 Watts (google it, it's true)

Watts = Volts x Amps

14.4 V x 40A (biggest fuse I've seen on a blower motor - Ford Taurus dual)
= 576 Watts. Divide by 746 per HP = 0.722. Factor in 30% Mechanical loss, and it comes to barely 1HP. Perhaps with additonal "fudge factor" (Heat losses, connection losses) you could find 1.2HP to run a fan.

Noltz

Also, I know of an old 4HP lawn mower that's been converted into a portable generator with a GM 120A alternator. Using a small 12V battery to ignite the field on the alternator, and 15' cables, it's used to charge heavy equipment batteries out in the yard, instead of running extension cords from the shop.

If 4HP can push 120A (and it does, for hours), then 1HP = 30A minimum (and probably more). That's real world... losses and all.

abecedarian

so considering your 746 watts... how many of those 746 watts/ 1 hp, will it take to lower the temp of the water in the radiator enough to maintain a constant temp of 185F at the output of the engine considering a constant output from the engine of 75 hp and an ambient temp of 85F? and for sake of argument assume a forward velocity of 0, for rock crawling instances

I think you might find my lack of decimal point helps compensate for a lack of forward velocity.

abecedarian

in order to lower the temp in the radiator, the fan will have to blow faster in order to accomodate a higher heat transfer rate ...

apalmer1

I think your missing the point, he was giving a very generous estimate saying that it will require 746A to run an electric fan, its true the electric fan is going to work much harder at a lower speed because of the lack of velocity, but its certainly not going to draw more than the 40amps he used for his estimate.

bottom line, mechanical fans w/ electromagnetic clutch are superior in design, electrical fans are superior in horsepower gains. theres a reason they use electric fans on race cars and run absolutely no un-necessary electric accessories.



I think the reverse flow cooling is very interesting, there are a lot of vehicles that do cool the head first that i have seen before.

as mentioned previously aluminum will warp much more than cast iron or steel will in this case. And consider the difference in the head and the block as far as the thickness of metal and the fact that heads are what commonly warp because they are much smaller in size. Remember power of any type (electrical, mechanical, thermal) will follow the path of least resistance. there is much less energy required to warp a head than there is to warp a block.

abecedarian

Saying it takes 746 Amperes to run a fan is a lot different than saying it takes 746 Amperes to run the fan for 10 minutes in order to reduce the temperature in the radiator 15 degrees Fahrenheit.

My argument was that replacing the mechanical fan with an electric fan only transfered the engine load from the v-belt that spun the fan to the alternator which would generate the electric current to operate the fan. And that it would take as much horsepower to turn the alternator (in order to accomodate the additional electrical load from the fan) as it would as if the fan were directly driven by the engine... in order to generate the same net cooling effect.
so cooling the head(s) would appear to be logical destination for the coolant after leaving the radiator... or are you saying that the coolant would be too cool?

apalmer1

yeah dont get me wrong there isnt a very big power gain through converting to an electric fan but it definately takes proportionately much less than the power needed for a mechanical fan. both styles are a constant drain on power while they are on, the electric fan is less of a constant drain even if its running much harder, though it may have to drain that less power for longer. regardless that whole argument is stupid and overplayed. use an electric fan if you need the power that badly and if you dont have the space, or do a lot of deep water.

yes i think that the reason toyota chose to have the coolant flow block first is that it MIGHT be too cool for the head, frankly i highly doubt that it would make a difference in durability if it were run the other way, a lot of vehicles run coolant from the head first and i doubt it would ever be at a point where it would be cool enough to warp the head because of that. regardless heads are warped easier than blocks so maybe thats why they did it.

hillbillydeelux

id have to go with austinthe load that the alternator would be taking is much less than the fan would take, dont bag on me im pretty stupid but last time i checked the less resitence you have the more power you gain.

stormin94

As for the cooling system, I would have some sort of cold air intake, and water injection system to cool the incoming air, which would reduce the load on the cooling system, and make the engine gain more horsepower by supplying it with colder, denser air, and allowing the cooling system to work less hard, thus less strain on both the engine and cooling systems, so in theory, you should have more horsepower and less strain on the cooling system. Even though this cooling effect would be minimal on the block temp.

Next, I would have a free flowing exhaust, with some sort of insulated headers, to reduce the under hood temps, which would also make the cooling system more efficient.

I'd also add an oil cooler.

And since this is just for fun, I'd have solar panels charging an auxilary battery, which would power an electric fan, so I wouldn't have any parasitic loss caused by the fan's draw on the alternator.

Just by doing this, you could potentially increase your car's performance by up to 15%, or more, since all of these will actually increase performance, as well as help make the cooling system more efficient.

All of this would be achieved using an essentially stock cooling system with some minor modifications, and some add ons.

Since this is just for fun, you could even go so far as to using an aluminum block. Aluminum is lighter, so it is less mass to push around, making it less strain, which makes the engine work less hard, which allows for cooler operating temps. Also the aluminum dissipates heat better than iron.

I'd also modify the front grill so that fresh air can get in easier, and flow freely.