Steve777

Got my new to me 87 4runner back to my home and am starting going through it. First item on the list is to get the engine to run for more than 1 sec (bought it that way, hoping/thinking I could fix it). I have gone through previous posts on this, but am still a bit stumped as what to try next. Here is what I've done (should mention patient is a 22RE engine, with some obvious mods): Based on other posts, I suspected an issue with the AFM. I checked the resistances and it looks OK (for a cheapie meter) and the fuel switch is working well. I tried bypassing the AFM fuel switch, by putting a jumper between B+ and Fc in the diagnostics. That worked as expected, that is I could hear the fuel pump and relay doing their thing as soon as the ignition switch was turned to on. Unfortunately that had no effect, the engine still ran for only 1 sec then died. I tried a quick test with ether, and surprisingly that had no effect, engine still dies at 1 sec. I pulled the diag codes and saw eleven blinks on the engine light in a row. From 4Crawler's site, that translates to this: SWITCH SIGNALS IDL (tps) CONTACTS OFF, NEUTRAL START SWITCH OFF, A/C SWITCH "ON" SIGNAL TO ECU WITH DIAGNOSTIC CHECK CONNECTOR SHORTED --A/C SWITCH/CIRCUIT --A/C AMPLIFIER --TPS/CIRCUIT --NEUTRAL START SWITCH/CIRCUIT --ECU So I am interested in getting advice from the experts here. Since the fuel pump jumper and ether could not keep the engine running, I'm concluding that this is not a fuel supply issue. Code 11 above has me confused though. How does the AC circuitry possibly effect basic engine running? And are the problems associated with this code, likely to cause the ECU to stop the engine as I am seeing (or are these totally unrelated problems)? I am pretty new to the 22RE fuel injection system, so any advice as to where to look next would be appreciated. Some obvious mod's to the engine which I have noticed are: K&N air filter has replaced the stock one, Air fitting elbow on top of the hose to the AFM is plugged off, Vacuum line under the drivers side foot/fender area disconnected and closed off). Probably more that I have not found yet. (Just in case these make a difference.) TIA

sam333

I thought that a code 11 in a 1987 was "momentary interruption in power supply to the ECU"?

Kiroshu

Have you tried to crank it while spraying carb cleaner into the intake to see if it will run off of it? IF it will run souly off carb cleaner then its a fuel problem....

Its been a while since i've seen that code and i can't find my yota code book but i thought code 11 poped if there was no rpm signal to computer... bah i forget.

If the a/c swtich is on and or the clutch was depressed during code readings it would trip a code....

See if it will run off carb cleaner. If so then its a fuel problem. and either the injectors are not "firing" or fuel pump.... If it won't run off carb cleaner theres an ingnition issue and its not getting proper if any spark....

sam333

I think he used ether.

Steve777

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

I did proceed down the path of looking at the TPS before I saw any replies. Found a few things out which seem related, but could not get enough done to do the test suggested by razed (maybe tomorrow if the weather clears some).

I tried pulling the connector on the TFS. No difference, still starts for 1 sec and dies. I also put an ohm meter on the TFS and found that the TFS was not signaling idle, so that may be the cause of the code 11.

I also found a vacuum line (1/4" diam or so) going into the TFS which was open to the air, that may have caused some of these problems.

I have cleaned up the TFS and gotten it reading good values (it was stuck internally and would not close all the way. A bit of WD40 fixed that). Unfortunately just did not get a chance to reinstall the TFS, calibrate it, and try things again.

I have tried starting with the fuel pump jumpered, with no effect. And tried spraying ether in while cranking; again no change. So I don't think it is an issue of lack of fuel.

Given that it starts and runs for a sec before dying, I was thinking that it may be an issue of lack of spark after it catches. Obviously there is spark at first. I was just wondering if there are any conditions (like the code 11) which might cause the ECU to stop sending sparks out? One other possibility is that it is running too rich and that is causing the engine to die (hard to tell since it runs for such a short time, but I did notice a fairly strong gas smell when I took the intake hose of the throttle body even though it had not been started today).

Again, any thoughts as to what else (other than lack of fuel) might cause the engine to die right after it catches? Once I get a change to reassemble the TFP, I'll try this all again to see what's up.

PismoJoe

The TPS does not have a vacuum line attached to it

Also, I don't know if you just killed your TPS by spraying it with WD-40...it doesn't sound like a good idea.

Anyways, the truck SHOULD run without it plugged in if there is an issue with it.

How do you know that "obviously there is spark?" Did you pull the high tension cord off the distributor cap about .5" away from the body of the car, while someone cranked it, to see if there was spark? Edit: does it run, or almost run and die? It would be worth it to do the spark test, it only takes a sec.

Steve777

The spark test is good idea, will put that on the list for tomorrow.

OK I admit, I am just assuming there is some spark, because with no starting sprays, the engine does start and run for 1 sec. (It actually starts right up nicely, no long cranking). Since generally gas won't fire without the spark, I've been assuming that there was some ignition spark for that first second. And that something is killing it, either the ignition spark turned off, or running with a mixture that is way out of range so it won't fire. And since ether does not prolong the running, it isn't too lean (again I'm assuming/deducing).

The "vacuum line" may have been something else, but it is 1/4 to 5/16" inside diameter and goes to a nipple on the top of the throttle body just before the butterfly (sorry not the tps but right near it); other end goes to a valve of some sort about mid way on the head, to the right (as you look at the engine). I'm assuming a part of the emissions control. If that helps any.

Steve777

Update.

The winds died down for a bit, so I got out there with a light and put the "cleaned" TPS back in, adjusted it, and checked that the idle switch now works right. Pulled the battery for 20 mins, made sure the clutch wasn't pushed and AC was off. Pulled codes again, and it was a 1 (which I think means no faults. So I'm assuming the adjustment of the TPS has fixed the code 11).

Replaced the leaky 1/4" tube, and tried starting again. There was some improvement, it now runs for ~5sec before dying, as long as I don't touch the gas. As soon as I press on the gas with the engine running it dies immediately. Again ether sprayed on the air filter does not help this run any longer. Nor does putting the Fp jumper in to force the fuel pump to run. FWIW the few seconds it runs sounds good, very even and no "bad" sounds/shakes.

Tried starting/running it a few times, and then pulled the ECU codes again. Just a one, so no errors stored (I believe).

So again, any thoughts of what to look for next? Spark test, but with 5 sec of running it seems likely that there were sparks, at least for that 5 sec. Pull a plug or two and see if it looks like it is running too rich (but for this short a run, it may be hard to see anything significant on the plugs, unless they are soaked in gas). More vacuum leaks? Maybe put a pressure meter on the fuel line just to be sure it is really getting fuel even though the Fp jumper was in. How about it dying as soon as the gas pedal is touched, that point to anything?

Again I am a real nooby with the Toyota fuel injection system (although I have "played" with some FI systems on other brands). Any thoughts where the best place to look for these symptoms would be? Do air leaks (rotted vacuum hoses, etc) cause this FI system to die?

TIA

sam333

How long has this truck been sitting? Even a good running truck sitting for a long while is not going to start and run well( bad/old fuel, rusted valve seats).

Are you sure the code 11 for this year truck is not "no power to the ECU"? Do you have a manual for the truck?

Did the person you bought the truck from tell you why it was not running?

The first thing you do on any unknown engine is a compression test. Then check the fuel pressure and then ignition. Those are the big three. If you dont know how to test for these, look at the manuals online or buy one. Then I would clean /gap the plugs and check the timing. Then clean battery terminals and clean and check connections and major grounds.

PismoJoe

It sounds to me like you have a bunch of vacuum lines that are disconnected, possibly now misrouted. Download an FSM and check the vacuum routing. There should be a diagram on the underside of your hood, it might have fallen off like they tend to do after 20 years.

Sounds like a vacuum leak issue, so that would be a good place to start

Steve777

Sam333:

Sitting a couple or three months. PO tried to figure it out, even had a mechanic or two look at it. One thought it was a wiring harness problem (PO even picked up a used one which he threw in).

Very sure code 11 is for the TSP, right out of the online FSM and 4crawler's site, and it went away when I fixed the TSP idle signal.

Agreed on the big three, I thought I might ace this with finding something the PO and his friends had missed, but it is looking less and less likely that is going to happen. Once I get some time during the day and good weather for working I will try a broader approach to this, hitting the basics, step by step. Until then with the limited time I have at night, I am trying to hit likely trouble spots, or notice something that leads me to the problem(s).

PismoJoe:

The lines may have been mis-routed before I got here (I've not changed any), but I don't think there are any more rotted ones. I've done a quick visual and tug and run my fingers over all the accessible ones and all seem well. The rubber lines all seem fairly new (like in the last 3-6 mos). That one I replaced was the exception and its crack was well hidden on the underside, couldn't see it until you removed it, and I replaced it. I'll do a more complete check in daylight, and get the FSM out so I can double check that the lines are all going where they were supposed to (no diagram on the hood anymore). Still could have missed something of course.

A few new twists:

PO left an O2 sensor in the engine compartment unconnected just dangling. It has some wires patched into it and they run into the drivers side foot well area. Have not traced them out to see where they go, but does anyone recognize this sort of a mod? A performance mod maybe? Could this still being attached to something (even though the O2 sensor is sitting out) have an effect at start/idle (there is a new O2 sensor installed and plugged into the harness)?

Also in the driver's side foot well there is a vacuum line that had been blocked off. Looked like it went into a solenoid valve of some sort. Any ideas what that might be?

Did a quick sanity check on airflow by putting my hand over the intake to the AFM. I could feel some air moving by, but not as much as I expect for a 2.4l engine cranking. A bit subjective here, but I think there are still some air leaks somewhere. Either in the tubing/air ducts or somewhere that I have not found, or from some FI control that is misadjusted/defective and letting air in. And when the engine cranks, the AFM flap is jumping open and slapping closed maybe once every 1/2 sec or so; sort of like the engine begins sucking air thru the AFM then stops then starts again, even though it is cranking strongly/quickly. Not sure if that is normal or perhaps a sign of an alternate air path into the intake leaking every so often. Anyone ever look at the AFM flap when starting?

Also, I have some doubts about the fuel supply. Tried taking the CSI connector off, just in case it was flooding things out. Engine would not start at all. So that's probably not it. But I am wondering even though I jumpered Fp, was the fuel pump really running. I can hear the FP relay in the pass footwell area click when I turn the key to start (and the clutch is up). However I do not hear that same click when putting the Fp jumper in? Shouldn't I, or do they work different relays? May be time for a fuel pressure test.

Looked at a few more things (and not necessarily making forward progress here). Spark plugs are almost new. Smelled a bit of ether at first on them, and looked a bit oily (but not burned oil). Gap was out of spec so I adjusted them and put them back. Distributor looks OK as do the wires. Need to do a more thorough check, and maybe a compression check even cold, just to get an idea of what's going on mechanically.

Noticed some "re-wiring" down in the drivers side footwell, as well as a dangling wire or two. Unfortunately I have no idea what these all went to or are supposed to go to. Looks like I will need to do some investigating.

One the pass side, I checked the ECU connectors, pulled each one out looked at the pins and replaced it. Nothing obviously out of sorts, but sometimes pulling and reseating an electrical connector will clear up a dirty connection.

Although after checking all these things out things regressed. At the end, the engine would not even catch for its few secs that it was yesterday (or earlier tonight), and the check engine light is no longer working (used to come on with the key/go off at start and flash codes) now it's out. I hate it when you move backwards.

Anyone know a step by step guide to adjusting all of the FI parts? Seems like a reset of all these things back to their initial settings might be a good place for me to start out.

PismoJoe

Hang in there, I know how you feel

sam333

I saw the code 11 on 4crawlers site also, but it was for an 85, somewhere in the next couple of years code 11 is : "no power to ECM" Check to make sure.

Buy or download the proper manual, so you have a paper copy in front of you. Get every manual you can( haynes , chilton, FSM) because they all lack important info in one way or another.

Even a compression test cold will tell you if you have major problems( leak down even better), but it sounds like when it runs, it runs ok. I would still check your compression and then fuel pressure and volume and ignition first. All simple tests.


Sounds like a fun trouble shooting adventure!

DEATH RUNNER

Fuel pump open circuit relay? I had the same problem, run and die. Find out i have a leak and it filled up with water. Dried it out relocated it and its been good so far.

TNRabbit

What you are describing is an AFM issue. Either you've got a short in the wiring, it's not plugged in (!), or the PO tried to remove it by removing the screws & hosed the inside of it.

Kiroshu

This seems to be getting more complicated than it prob is.

Saying it cranks and runs fine for 1 sec then shuts off.

Its loosing something and its more than likely lossing "signal."

Getting down to engine basics here.

Going by the information given.

If it will not run on an alternate fuel source(carb cleaner/ether) then theres a spark issue.

IF it will run off an alternate fuel source then theres a fuel issue.

Nowing being an EFI engine there is "signal" involved with both of these.

Now you can't just take the main intake hose off and try to run it off carb cleaner.(Try not to use ether)

You need to disconnect a vac line like the pcv hose or something major but not to major.

Now a big enough vac leak will cause this no start issue.

Being that the computer had no real trouble codes pointing anywhere. Cause a toyota will usually tell where the prob is unless its mechanical parts failing.

Need to check the Circut opening relay(Fuel pump relay basically).

This failing part will cause a no start with no codes.

Check distributor components? Are then intact and not damaged?

Got gas? How long was the truck sitting? A flooded EFI vehcile will require Wideopen throttle starting.

Also a restricted Cat convertor will cause this as well.

Distributor cap?

Battery and alternator good?

Main Grounds ok?

Steve777

Thanks again for the ideas.

Work on it has been delayed for a couple of days due to weather. But Sat is supposed to be decent, so I plan on devoting the day (or at least a good part of it) to this.

I'd agree, it is time to go back to basics. Test for spark, test for compression, and test for fuel. If I can narrow it down to one of these, then that will direct the rest of my efforts.

Spoke to the PO, and he filled in some details: the engine was running fine until Aug. It started running a bit rough, and he took it to a shop. They changed the oil & spark plugs, and did some diagnosis and then the engine would not stay running. It happened all at once, the not staying running. The shop wanted to replace the main wiring harness as they think/thought it was a wiring issue. PO sold the truck instead.

Check engine light is back working (no codes), EFI fuse had blown; and the engine is now back to its old behavior, starts right up runs for 1 sec and dies. But at least I am back to where I started.

I am planning on doing the spark test first, since I think it is the most likely (given that ether did not seem to make a difference). I plan on looking for a spark from the main wire from the coil to dist, with the dist end pulled out and held a short distance from ground somewhere. If I see sparks, then it goes back in the dist, and I will put my old inductive timing light on that lead, and see if there are sparks while the engine dies (I'm assuming that since it does run for a sec or so, that there must be sparks at the start when the engine catches, but I'll see.)

Next test will be to dig out my ancient compression tester and see what readings I get. Anybody know what the compression numbers should be on a dead cold engine? I suspect that I am really just looking for HG, valve or ring issues here, and roughly even compression between all the cyls. Afterall even an engine that only has 60# of compression will idle.

If I get thru these two without any signs of a cause, try the fuel thing again. I was just shooting the ether into the AFM/air filter, but sounds like there are better ways of injecting alternative fuel for this test. Any suggestions as to which vacuum line to pull and inject carb cleaner or the like thru?

muddpigg

iTrader: (1)

Check spark, check the injectors with an injector light (to see if the injector is getting signal to squirt), then check fuel pressure.

It really sounds like a ground in the wiring harness issue. The engine starts because of the cold start injector which doesn't use the ground. As the engine starts the cold start stops pumping in gas. Usually this ground problem starts after the intake is removed and it is forgotten to reattach. But perhaps your truck had some furry vissistors that nibbled a short or a cennection just got worse or loose.

Just my opinion.

sam333

I use a small propane torch can with a rubber hose attached( sprayed junk in my eyes to many times).

Steve777

Updates

Did check all the grounds to the engine, all in place and look good. Looked again for missing/rotted vacuum lines, didn't find any.

Did the spark tests. Coil wire draws a decent spark when held 1/2" from the engine (orange to white in bright sunlight). Timing light shows sparks on the center wire and individual spark plug wires at the right frequencies. So most likely there is spark (although I did not test the actual plugs at pressure, and from the look of the plugs, they are not firing).

BTW the plugs are new, NKG BPR5EGP plugs. Look like a platinum type, with just s skinny wire for the main electrode. No signs of carbon buildup, but I don't think they have run/fired long enough for that to happen.

Pulled the sparkplugs. They were wet and smelled of GAS. So I don't think lack of fuel is a problem, although too much may be.

Did a compression test 125-130# in all cyls. Remember this is with a 30F block and at 8500' elevation so I expected the numbers to be a bit lower (10-30#) than for a sea level warm block test. The main thing is there are no cyls with no compression, and things are even. Certainly 130# is enough to idle (maybe not to make for a good driving experience especially up hills).

So I am scratching my head a bit. It seems that all the basic necessities are there, compression, fuel and spark. Although it may be that the spark is way off in timing or that there is way too much fuel. Or maybe the spark is not really happening in the cylinders or happening at the wrong time.

My next area of investigation seems be the ignition, making sure the inductor gap is right, and double check basic static timing. Then on to the cold start injector, to see if it is leaking perhaps and causing a too rich fuel situation that is preventing firing.

The only other clues are that the engine continues to "catch" and run for 1 sec at the first crank. So for at least that first sec there is good spark and fuel. And that short run sounds good, no signs of some cylinders not firing or rough running.

One other possible clue is that during that short run, I can hear the AFM flapper, opening and slapping closed a couple times a sec. I would have thought that it would largely stay open all the time the engine was cranking. I was wondering if one of the other EFI "gadgets" might be opening and letting air in some other way to cause the AFM to cycle like that?

So my questions to the experts here are what sorts of things kick in with the ECU just after the engine catches. Things that might cause the ECU to stop/change the ignition, or dramatically change the timing or the like. Any EFI valves that might leak significant amount of air in if they were mis-adjusted or broken?

Any thoughts. Possible other areas to check.