driveway alignment write-up
01-16-2009, 03:53 AM
#21
Registered User
good trick however u will never get it as accurate with this setup as with an alignment machine ive realigned quite a few cars that the owner did him self and u would b suprised how much a difference there is i mean u can get it close but your not going to b dead on
I have been doing this for years and my steering wheel is straighter than it ever was after an alignment at a shop and my tire wear is great. The reason is that you are aligning your truck on the surfaces onto which it drives. When you stop, the suspension is loaded as it is in the real world. This is not the case on a rack. This means you take all that into account in your adjustments and the results are excellent.
Matt, good write up! Maybe the mods can make it a sticky somewhere? Either way I'll link to it.
One thing to add about the caster, that's what is making the steering largely feel heavy as I'm sure you know. However, it's also what is making the truck more immune to that tugging from going through ice patches. That's the trade off. You can always relax the caster now or even in the summer when weather is better. With wide tires you really don't need much caster unless hitting those patches. It's 23 below here and I have had to deal with them too. I'm about ready to put more caster in to my truck.
A note on camber, the spec is 0 - 1.5 degrees positive if memory serves. That means tires vertical or leaning outwards. That is to try to encourage understeer. I run my tires vertical, they wear better and I can handle the oversteer typical of solid axle vehicles. Likely this group has long since became used to kicking out the rear with a blip of the throttle so we aren't the ones that spec was designed to serve. It's more of the person who doesn't realize a truck handles differently that a FWD car.
Frank
01-16-2009, 03:55 AM
#22
Registered User
Alright, I figured out how to set camber to my satisfaction. Once again, I used a plumb line, but this time, I measured off the rim with the tire on the ground. I parked in a leveled concrete garage, the set up the plumb line using some wood chips to shim the plumb line so that it did not deflect off the lower sidewall bulge. This time, in order to stop the plumb line for acting like a pendulum, I immersed the weight in a container of water (syrupy gear oil would have worked even better).
As camber changes as the suspension cycles, if you set the camber with the weight off the tires, the bottom of the rim will be cambered in a little over 1/4"- far too much positive camber. The problem with setting camber on the ground I had before was that I didn't have room to roll the truck back and forth after each adjustment, so inevitably, the it was too difficult to dial in the camber. I thought about different low-friction surfaces I could use so the tire could slip from side to side, but couldn't convince the local hockey rink to let me borrow the ice for a bit. I settled on two 16 gauge (I think, its about 1/16" thick) 12"x12" squares of sheet metal laid on top of each other with grease in between. Placed under the tire, the tire can slip from side to side riding on the top plate. Cheap, simple and it works. I can easily adjust the cam bolts as the tire slip in and outwards.
I was able to get the passenger side rim cambered in 1/32" (translates into -0.12* caster on a 381mm [15"] rim). Spec is 0*45'+ 45* if I recall, so this puts me well within spec. On the drivers side, I maxed out the camber at +1/32", which puts me at +0.12*. While this isn't perfect, I'm going to try it. I really doubt I'll notice, and it isn't going to eat tires like that either.
I also dialed back the caster, as I felt the steering was too heavy. It was nice on the highway, but around town, it felt a bit like a cement truck. I have no way to measure caster, so as long as it tracks nicely, doesn't pull or eat steering parts, I'll be happy.
Replacing the tie rod outers tmr with 555 brand tie rod ends sold by Beck Arnley. They're grease-able which is nice.
As camber changes as the suspension cycles, if you set the camber with the weight off the tires, the bottom of the rim will be cambered in a little over 1/4"- far too much positive camber. The problem with setting camber on the ground I had before was that I didn't have room to roll the truck back and forth after each adjustment, so inevitably, the it was too difficult to dial in the camber. I thought about different low-friction surfaces I could use so the tire could slip from side to side, but couldn't convince the local hockey rink to let me borrow the ice for a bit. I settled on two 16 gauge (I think, its about 1/16" thick) 12"x12" squares of sheet metal laid on top of each other with grease in between. Placed under the tire, the tire can slip from side to side riding on the top plate. Cheap, simple and it works. I can easily adjust the cam bolts as the tire slip in and outwards.
I was able to get the passenger side rim cambered in 1/32" (translates into -0.12* caster on a 381mm [15"] rim). Spec is 0*45'+ 45* if I recall, so this puts me well within spec. On the drivers side, I maxed out the camber at +1/32", which puts me at +0.12*. While this isn't perfect, I'm going to try it. I really doubt I'll notice, and it isn't going to eat tires like that either.
I also dialed back the caster, as I felt the steering was too heavy. It was nice on the highway, but around town, it felt a bit like a cement truck. I have no way to measure caster, so as long as it tracks nicely, doesn't pull or eat steering parts, I'll be happy.
Replacing the tie rod outers tmr with 555 brand tie rod ends sold by Beck Arnley. They're grease-able which is nice.
Caster, as long as it's negative you are fine. Like I mentioned with our wide tires and slow speed vehicles you just don't need much caster. A high end German sports car on the autobahn might have as much as 10+ degrees, we don't do that.
Frank
Last edited by elripster; 01-16-2009 at 03:57 AM.
01-16-2009, 11:39 AM
#23
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Thread Starter
I would suggest you try this method on a IFS Toyota and then throw it on your rack. You'll see what many others have found and that is you "can" get it dead on using your rack if you want to spend the time. However, "in spec" is actually not very well aligned. For example in spec camber leaves wheels visible tilted. You can also get it dead on with this method. Vertical camber is vertical, etc....
I have been doing this for years and my steering wheel is straighter than it ever was after an alignment at a shop and my tire wear is great. The reason is that you are aligning your truck on the surfaces onto which it drives. When you stop, the suspension is loaded as it is in the real world. This is not the case on a rack. This means you take all that into account in your adjustments and the results are excellent.
Matt, good write up! Maybe the mods can make it a sticky somewhere? Either way I'll link to it.
One thing to add about the caster, that's what is making the steering largely feel heavy as I'm sure you know. However, it's also what is making the truck more immune to that tugging from going through ice patches. That's the trade off. You can always relax the caster now or even in the summer when weather is better. With wide tires you really don't need much caster unless hitting those patches. It's 23 below here and I have had to deal with them too. I'm about ready to put more caster in to my truck.
A note on camber, the spec is 0 - 1.5 degrees positive if memory serves. That means tires vertical or leaning outwards. That is to try to encourage understeer. I run my tires vertical, they wear better and I can handle the oversteer typical of solid axle vehicles. Likely this group has long since became used to kicking out the rear with a blip of the throttle so we aren't the ones that spec was designed to serve. It's more of the person who doesn't realize a truck handles differently that a FWD car.
Frank
I have been doing this for years and my steering wheel is straighter than it ever was after an alignment at a shop and my tire wear is great. The reason is that you are aligning your truck on the surfaces onto which it drives. When you stop, the suspension is loaded as it is in the real world. This is not the case on a rack. This means you take all that into account in your adjustments and the results are excellent.
Matt, good write up! Maybe the mods can make it a sticky somewhere? Either way I'll link to it.
One thing to add about the caster, that's what is making the steering largely feel heavy as I'm sure you know. However, it's also what is making the truck more immune to that tugging from going through ice patches. That's the trade off. You can always relax the caster now or even in the summer when weather is better. With wide tires you really don't need much caster unless hitting those patches. It's 23 below here and I have had to deal with them too. I'm about ready to put more caster in to my truck.
A note on camber, the spec is 0 - 1.5 degrees positive if memory serves. That means tires vertical or leaning outwards. That is to try to encourage understeer. I run my tires vertical, they wear better and I can handle the oversteer typical of solid axle vehicles. Likely this group has long since became used to kicking out the rear with a blip of the throttle so we aren't the ones that spec was designed to serve. It's more of the person who doesn't realize a truck handles differently that a FWD car.
Frank
01-16-2009, 04:38 PM
#24
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indeed manufacturer specs can be a little wicked but the reason most manufacturers recommend a little negative camber and positive toe is for traction in corners as u turn and the car leans its supposed to apply more tread on the ground also helps stability thats why most oh i dont know roush mustangs camaro vipers im sure even celicas all are ran this way while ik some manufacturer specs that r just plain stupid with tolerances they do this so when the car comes back to the dealer still under warranty the manufacturer doesnt have to reimburse the dealer because its technically still in specs and its all a matter of knowing the angles and where to set them ill admit right up front i dont know everything about alignments but ive been doing them long enough.. also i think the time spent aligning it your self isnt worth it we charge 69.99 for a 5 wheel alignment and theres a warranty so if u have a problem we will fix it
01-16-2009, 05:02 PM
#25
Contributing Member
indeed manufacturer specs can be a little wicked but the reason most manufacturers recommend a little negative camber and positive toe is for traction in corners as u turn and the car leans its supposed to apply more tread on the ground also helps stability thats why most oh i dont know roush mustangs camaro vipers im sure even celicas all are ran this way while ik some manufacturer specs that r just plain stupid with tolerances they do this so when the car comes back to the dealer still under warranty the manufacturer doesnt have to reimburse the dealer because its technically still in specs and its all a matter of knowing the angles and where to set them ill admit right up front i dont know everything about alignments but ive been doing them long enough.. also i think the time spent aligning it your self isnt worth it we charge 69.99 for a 5 wheel alignment and theres a warranty so if u have a problem we will fix it
01-16-2009, 05:16 PM
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i think it has alot to do with off road as your suspension pushes down the wheels camber in to be honest im not 100% just and educated guess seeing as how im sure your beemer doesnt do a whole lot of off road at least i know mine didnt they focus more on street performance i think the way toyota cs it if u try to take a corner doing 90 in a toyota pickup or 4runner your just stupid and deserve to wreck lol i did however notice toe is still positive
01-16-2009, 05:27 PM
#27
Registered User
It's because you can't camber in the rear wheels on our trucks.
The negative camber on IRS vehicles is to promote understeer. Understeer is easier to control than oversteer.
Since we have solid rear axles, the only way to get understeer is to encourage the front wheels to lean on the edge a bit along with the rear wheels in hopes they slide at the same time or slightly sooner since the rears are going to roll on the edge no matter what.
Also, on a high profile vehicle, it's generally better to at least try to design it to slide before it rolls. Now of course we go and add lifts and larger tires so we just have to drive more defensively since we raise the COG.
Frank
The negative camber on IRS vehicles is to promote understeer. Understeer is easier to control than oversteer.
Since we have solid rear axles, the only way to get understeer is to encourage the front wheels to lean on the edge a bit along with the rear wheels in hopes they slide at the same time or slightly sooner since the rears are going to roll on the edge no matter what.
Also, on a high profile vehicle, it's generally better to at least try to design it to slide before it rolls. Now of course we go and add lifts and larger tires so we just have to drive more defensively since we raise the COG.
Frank
01-16-2009, 05:35 PM
#28
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this is true most solid axles r non adjustable however there r some with certain adjustments such as toe i believe the 4wheel steering has this option but dont quote me on that ive yet to play with one and shims but shims r usually for fwd vans and the ocasional car ive heard of adjustable ball joints for the front to adjust a lil camber but ive yet to find them or get to play with them speaking of which ne one know where to get a set?? or how about adjustable rear later links for chrysler sebring with a non adjustable link from factory ive checked moog and a couple other places but i hear they r out there somewhere oh and another thing trucks r usually loaded down more then go fast cars
Last edited by darksoldier313; 01-16-2009 at 05:44 PM.
01-16-2009, 05:44 PM
#29
Contributing Member
It's because you can't camber in the rear wheels on our trucks.
The negative camber on IRS vehicles is to promote understeer. Understeer is easier to control than oversteer.
Since we have solid rear axles, the only way to get understeer is to encourage the front wheels to lean on the edge a bit along with the rear wheels in hopes they slide at the same time or slightly sooner since the rears are going to roll on the edge no matter what.
Also, on a high profile vehicle, it's generally better to at least try to design it to slide before it rolls. Now of course we go and add lifts and larger tires so we just have to drive more defensively since we raise the COG.
Frank
The negative camber on IRS vehicles is to promote understeer. Understeer is easier to control than oversteer.
Since we have solid rear axles, the only way to get understeer is to encourage the front wheels to lean on the edge a bit along with the rear wheels in hopes they slide at the same time or slightly sooner since the rears are going to roll on the edge no matter what.
Also, on a high profile vehicle, it's generally better to at least try to design it to slide before it rolls. Now of course we go and add lifts and larger tires so we just have to drive more defensively since we raise the COG.
Frank
Sounds good to me Frank.
01-16-2009, 11:13 PM
#30
Registered User
Thread Starter
With the slightly neg camber vs. the positive camber before, the truck feels "sportier". While that's like saying a freighter is more sporty than an ocean liner, it does feel like I can corner a lot better.
Before, it felt like the tire was trying to tuck under the front end when cornering hard. Now, it doesn't! Nor does it understand like before. I like it better.
Before, it felt like the tire was trying to tuck under the front end when cornering hard. Now, it doesn't! Nor does it understand like before. I like it better.
03-05-2009, 12:42 PM
#31
Registered User
Thread Starter
2 months later, the tires are worn almost identically and there is no extra visible tire wear. After adding 1/4" wheel spacers, there was noticeably more tendency to wander on the highway (compared with and without on the same day), so I may dial in a little more caster now after all. It was pretty much perfect before the wheel spacers.
06-16-2009, 06:26 AM
#32
Registered User
Toe>camber relation?
I had an alignment done at Sears a few weeks ago and when I left the guy said they couldn't get my passenger side camber in spec (printout reads -.2 degrees) because my tie rod was under-extended. Well I broke it loose the other day and let a few threads out and already am getting outer sawtooth wear.
I will bring it back to them under warranty since I'm upping to 35inch mt/r kevlars soon, too expensive to skimp on aligns, but to get it close for the present, would it be possible to compensate for the toe by adjusting camber? I was ready to try turning my front cam cw, rear ccw, but figured I'd be better off if someone here knew for sure. Just curious if there's a formula for changing toe relative to camber... Thanks
I will bring it back to them under warranty since I'm upping to 35inch mt/r kevlars soon, too expensive to skimp on aligns, but to get it close for the present, would it be possible to compensate for the toe by adjusting camber? I was ready to try turning my front cam cw, rear ccw, but figured I'd be better off if someone here knew for sure. Just curious if there's a formula for changing toe relative to camber... Thanks
Last edited by jbtvt; 06-16-2009 at 06:28 AM.
06-16-2009, 03:01 PM
#33
Registered User
Basically, any adjusting of ride height or the lower a-arm cams (which set camber/caster) will affect toe in. You have increased your toe in if you are getting outer saw tooth wear.
I would suggest following the alignment instructions from start to finish, they work extremely well. I haven't been to an alignment shop in so many years and my tires wear very like iron.
Frank
I would suggest following the alignment instructions from start to finish, they work extremely well. I haven't been to an alignment shop in so many years and my tires wear very like iron.
Frank
02-20-2010, 06:06 PM
#34
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Thread Starter
I haven't bothered to take my truck in for an alignment yet, but my truck has done 30 000km (18 000 miles) since the DIY alignment and I've only noticed a tiny bit more wear on the outside edges on each tread block due to excessive toe-in. I'd maybe leave it dead-straight ("0" toe) or 1/32".
03-08-2010, 09:25 PM
#35
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Interesting thread, didn't notice it before.
I haven't had to do this yet on my 4Runner, but here's how I solved these two problems when I did my FIAT (funny how I miss that thing, and yet I'm so glad it's gone).
I cut two plates, probably 12"x12" out of 1/4" steel. Drilled holes in the 4 corners and welded large nuts on. Then put large (but short) bolts into them. These acted as platforms, with bolts facing downwards as feet, that I could raise and lower (and level) by turning the bolts. I used a laser level to get them at the same height on my uneven garage floor and lowered the car down onto them from a jack.
I solved the friction problem the exact same way. I think I just used some hardboard and bearing grease on top of those platforms. The hardboard wasn't a good choice of material because it would soak up the grease over some weeks or months, but you get the idea. Just turn the wheels left and right a little, suspension settles itself!
You can also us a bar with standoffs, a level and a cheap camber gauge that you can place up against your rims and measure your camber, but the plumbline trick here works fine, too. With the camber gauge trick, though, it's a little easier to calculate your caster by turning the wheels a certain amount and rechecking the camber; with a little geometry you can deduce the caster.
edit: here's a cheapie here, already made up for you:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/ECONOM...ign=GoogleBase
After that, you need a tire mounter and balancer and you can do all this work yourself.
Alright, I figured out how to set camber to my satisfaction. Once again, I used a plumb line, but this time, I measured off the rim with the tire on the ground. I parked in a leveled concrete garage, the set up the plumb line using some wood chips to shim the plumb line so that it did not deflect off the lower sidewall bulge.
I thought about different low-friction surfaces I could use so the tire could slip from side to side, but couldn't convince the local hockey rink to let me borrow the ice for a bit. I settled on two 16 gauge (I think, its about 1/16" thick) 12"x12" squares of sheet metal laid on top of each other with grease in between. Placed under the tire, the tire can slip from side to side riding on the top plate. Cheap, simple and it works. I can easily adjust the cam bolts as the tire slip in and outwards.
I cut two plates, probably 12"x12" out of 1/4" steel. Drilled holes in the 4 corners and welded large nuts on. Then put large (but short) bolts into them. These acted as platforms, with bolts facing downwards as feet, that I could raise and lower (and level) by turning the bolts. I used a laser level to get them at the same height on my uneven garage floor and lowered the car down onto them from a jack.
I solved the friction problem the exact same way. I think I just used some hardboard and bearing grease on top of those platforms. The hardboard wasn't a good choice of material because it would soak up the grease over some weeks or months, but you get the idea. Just turn the wheels left and right a little, suspension settles itself!
You can also us a bar with standoffs, a level and a cheap camber gauge that you can place up against your rims and measure your camber, but the plumbline trick here works fine, too. With the camber gauge trick, though, it's a little easier to calculate your caster by turning the wheels a certain amount and rechecking the camber; with a little geometry you can deduce the caster.
edit: here's a cheapie here, already made up for you:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/ECONOM...ign=GoogleBase
After that, you need a tire mounter and balancer and you can do all this work yourself.
Last edited by betelnut; 03-08-2010 at 09:43 PM.
08-15-2012, 03:23 PM
#36
Registered User
A lot of the photo's are down.
Will this be updated again? I'm about to have a crack at doing this job myself after I put new tie rod ends in. I live in a remote town and the shop does not want to touch mine for an alignment due to the BJ spacers.
Will this be updated again? I'm about to have a crack at doing this job myself after I put new tie rod ends in. I live in a remote town and the shop does not want to touch mine for an alignment due to the BJ spacers.
08-15-2012, 03:32 PM
#37
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04-11-2013, 06:56 PM
#39
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Anyone have trouble turning the cam bolts? The nut came off no problem, but I'm leg pressing the breaker bar on the bolt head and the thing won't budge. Usually use heat in these situations but don't wanna mess up the bushings. Any ideas?
I also have been soaking it in PB blaster for a few days. Didn't seem to help.
I also have been soaking it in PB blaster for a few days. Didn't seem to help.
Last edited by Mad Hauser; 04-11-2013 at 07:04 PM.
04-06-2014, 12:46 PM
#40
A couple of days ago I smashed through a washed out area of a dirt road. It felt very rough on the truck. I was concerned for the health of the vehicle. I have crawled underneath and thoroughly inspected everything and I cannot find any visible damage.
However, the wheel now has to be held quite far to the left in order to go straight. If I let go of the steering wheel the truck actually goes quite straight down the road and actually wanders a bit to the right if anything.
In other words - The steering wheels natural resting place is now quite far to the left and when I let go of the wheel while driving down the road it stays in that position while the truck actually wanders slightly to the right.
I have ball joint spacers on the truck and I did an alignment a year ago or so to reset my camber correctly. I used a guide that I found online. The picture that I have included here is from the beginning of that guide and I do not understand what it is referring to. I understand caster, camber and toe. But what is this? This excerpt is listed before adjusting caster, camber and toe. Could this be key in fixing my issue?
However, the wheel now has to be held quite far to the left in order to go straight. If I let go of the steering wheel the truck actually goes quite straight down the road and actually wanders a bit to the right if anything.
In other words - The steering wheels natural resting place is now quite far to the left and when I let go of the wheel while driving down the road it stays in that position while the truck actually wanders slightly to the right.
I have ball joint spacers on the truck and I did an alignment a year ago or so to reset my camber correctly. I used a guide that I found online. The picture that I have included here is from the beginning of that guide and I do not understand what it is referring to. I understand caster, camber and toe. But what is this? This excerpt is listed before adjusting caster, camber and toe. Could this be key in fixing my issue?
Last edited by irv; 04-06-2014 at 12:48 PM.
