thook

For a while...months and months...my CEL has been coming on. It's always been code 5 for O2 sensor signal ('cept once...long story). Within that time, it also developed a slight miss and low idle and hesitation at start up. But, once reaching operating temp and after driving for a bit, those symptoms would clear up. So, over the months I've adjusted the valves (w/new adjusters), cleaned the plenum and TB, new PCV valve, adjusted the TPS and timing, replaced the coolant temp. sensor, plugs, rotor/cap, and even the O2 sensor. (Soon will be ignition cables.) All helped a lot and all needed doing, but none fixed the CEL. Adjustment of the timing was the most recent tweak and certainly bumped the power. The idle is much better and so is the hestitation at start up, but it's now developed a more pronounced miss at times and hesitation while driving. The CEL still comes on, although this morning it did not. Weird.. Doesn't matter as the other day I went to a local mechanic (the best one I know...probably best the area) to get some input. I've gone to him for advice and repairs for the past few years and he's always been willing to help troubleshoot at no cost, but I try to not take advantage of his generosity. Well, I was out of ideas and so I went. I was humbled. The man had it diagnosed within five minutes without even touching it. The valve seals are leaking and the rings are worn.... Can you guess how this is affecting the motor....how it is causing all these symptoms? Can you guess how he knew all of this? I'll post the answers, but I want to hear what you all say first......if you're game!

(BTW, the vehicle is not smoking AT ALL!)

InternetRoadkill

oily tailpipe and fouled O2 sensor.

thook

Good guess on the tailpipe, but no...he only looked under the hood. (Sorry, I could have said this before). And no on the O2. He'd have to have pulled it to see it.

So, yeah....think "under the hood"....what would be visually apparent?

n4ynu1010

Valve Seals leaking can cause substantail vacumn leaking on the intake side and on the exhuast/intake oil fouling your plugs , ruining your air/fuel mix even (now you have a rice burning 2 stroke hehe).
Rings of course if that bad would affect your compression and there again your burn would be bad and O2 would be all confused over all of the above .
Alot of time the Cat can clean up alot of the signs exhaust would lend to exposing these things , do a crompression test and see what pressures are .
Back to Cat - it you are having all that going on Cat will in my experience start becoming a bit stopped up soon but if newer one it may do its job and burn it off
Have you used the Seafoam thru the gas , I used a full can in 8 gal.s of premium and man it must have cleaned something up because that made a noticable improvement in mine , of course I dailed in the new TPS , re-gapped my plugs to .031 instead of the factory aftermarket gap of .042 - .044 and put a set of wire core plug wires on her .
I also replaced that o-ring that goes on the Idle Adj. screw on the throttle body , mine was dry rotted and leaking vacumn bad around the idle screw .
I still havn't done a compression test on mine yet - I'm scared hehe but it runs like a champ now , I was worried about it for a bit .

thook

Yep. Have a cigar!

Well, that is what's happening. But, how it he put it all together was he noticed the blow by at the PCV and that other vac tube atop the valve cover. I'd tested the compression weeks ago and all was even and about midline to spec. So, I'm okay for a little while.

Since I'm no position whatsoever to do the rings or valves at the moment, I will have to just baby it along. I do need some input on that, I think. The O2 I'm wondering if I can get away with regular cleaning to keep it functional a little longer. I don't want to have to buy one every two or so months. The plugs...they're cheap and can easily be cleaned or replaced. I'm draining the oil and putting fresh cheap dino w/new filter and keep that changed more often than normal. Plus, I am going run more seafoam through the fuel and intake, but also auto-rx through the crankcase. Another concern is the oil WILL get into the plenum and I need to somehow run without that vac line (the biggest one) and the PVC hooked up to it. I'm thinking breathers and block the ports on the plenum, but I don't know much about that as far as parts needed. Any ideas on that?

Oh....and what "wire core" cables are you using? Brand? Cost?

n4ynu1010

I am using Aftermarket Belden wire core , they are 8mm Silicone Jacket , I paid about $42 at NAPA for them , I'm like you I hear (real tight budget) but NGK does make a set and I am sure they are more than that

I guess if you have a considerable amount of blowby then just plug it off at throttle body and valve cover and get one of those filter breathers to replace your oil fill cap with .

Also from old old school (not sure if it still applies) when we had motors burning oil or excessive blowby being burnt we would use Havoline (not sure if they even still make it hehe) because it seemed to burn cleaner in reference to fouling plugs and clogging up converters - Old fish tale maybe but it always helped

Do you use sythetic oil ? It would burn cleaner than standard oil .

Maybe try using a additive to help oil ring seal a bit better like the Lucas stuff , I use that in all of my vehicles as well and it definately help lubrication and increases the surface tension of the oil so it sticks better without thickening the oil , and does wonders for quieting valve trains from what I have seen

You know you can use the seafoam in the crankcase too , maybe you have some sludge around your ring grooves you need to get out and it will solve some of or all of your problem (if its ring related sticking and such) , thats why I am in love with synthetic , keeps the motor so clean and happy

n4ynu1010

Thats a sure sign of either (rings or valve seals) for sure

thook

Wait a minute....rings OR valve seals? Meaning, it may just be the valves? How is it the valves alone could cause the blow by? I thought it was only ring related.

I've been using sythentic because I like too, but I'm going to drain it (it's time, anyway) and put in inexpensive dino because of the contamination of gases from combustion. In other words, the oil will just get dirty much faster and therefore be a waste of money. We all know synth ain't cheap.

The auto-rx I'm using because I have some already and I like it...it works. And it may indeed help with the ring issue (like seafoam) since it's minor...unless it's all valve seal related...which the a-rx may help with, too. Plus, it will also get out sludge and carbon in a "mild" fashion preventing possible damage in the process. I've no doubt Seafoam would work, but like I said....

Now, aren't there some breather type things that replace the PCV and the large vac line? Well, I know there are...I've seen 'em on another's rig in another thread. I'll keep searching for that. I've got an oil bypass filter return line hooked to my oil fill cap right now. Considering the circumstances, I think I'll leave that on. Two filters better than one!

And the wires....how are they working for you? It'd be nice if I could spend a little less right now.

n4ynu1010

The exhaust valve (when open) will leak exhaust gases (pressure) by the guide and the seal if they are old thereby increasing blowby/positive crankcase pressure (this actually happens at minute levels all the time just like controlled leakage by rows of rings) but generally oil from the head leaking down and causing some smoke on start up is all peeps see but it continues just not enough to see the haze until real bad especially running Cat because it tends to clean it up .
Intake valve if guide and seal are bad (pretty bad it can cause what is a vacumn leak when valve is open drawing (vacumn) air/oil past seal and guides so it is leaning out mix and adding small amounts of oil to the burn as well , also famous for the longer smoke at start up - oil that has leaked down and is slowly washed/burned from intake valve/seat/port from oil leaking down when off and of course this will continue while running as well .

what size is this bypass return line?
Move your return line to PCV connection and put you a old valve cover breather where your oil fill cap is ?

Wires are working real good for me and thats about as cheap as the get for wire core

thook

Thanks.


I found some interesting info related to plug wire designs and have some other replies, but I'm leaving work now. Tomorrow....ta!

n4ynu1010

Aha your gone , I can catch up a bit ROFL

linuxrunner

My NGK's were 24.99. That was for 4 tho, Plus they are nice and blue!!!

Just a heads up spray something in the boots before install so they come out easer. I had a 2 week old set of NGK's and had to use a boot puller to remove them and it ripped the boot + wire in half . And since you cannot get just one wire i had to buy a whole new set.

n4ynu1010

Mine are nice and Blue too , look like the old Moroso , and yes when you put the wires on I put a dab about the size of a eraser in each plug boot of Di-electric Grease , just be careful when you do the ditributor with the grease and put a smaller dab in each distributor hole so it won't get all over the inside of your distributor wire end boots (sometimes if not a good fit in cap will cause boots to slide off but you can fix that also by adj'ing tabs on wire end connector)
If you use the Di-electric Grease (aka-ignition grease) then not only will your boots come off easier but more importantly the connection will never dry up and or oxidize - that is the real benefit as well as waterproofing/insulating the connection from bleeding off to ground at plug or arcing at outside of cap when getting wet .............good stuff and it is great for waterproofing headlamp plugs etc to protect from corrosion and dry connection as well as water , make your bulbs last much longer .

thook

Thanks for the tips, guys.

Well, I'm a real dork....uber goober, indeed. Last night I went to check the resistance on my plug wires for both 4rnrs and they checked out fine with my meter. Really...they're aren't that old. 3yrs at most. Hence, my disappointment in finding they might be bad. So, I appreciate the help received, but I am glad I checked. To explain the discoloration I saw.....well, they were stained....atleast on the '92, that is. I used some (safe) cleaner I had and found that the stains were coming off. Not sure what they're from as the vehicle has been in other hands besides mine (mechanics). The stains, however, didn't really go any deeper into the jacket than the surface. Absolutely pristine looking at the terminals, too. It's good that I've gone through this, though, because I've been doing my reading and learned what I've not known before about ignition wire manufacturing and application.

One example..
http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm
The info may or may not be slanted given the source, but I do intend to read more. It was helpful, though.

Good rotors, caps, and wires (not the cheap carbon/fiberglass core) should last years or around 100k miles.....all depending on how they are maintained, of course. The health of the electrical and ignition system also plays a part. So, this yearly change out thing mentioned isn't entirely accurate. Depends on the parts used and...again...maintenance.

Anyhow, I have the blue NGK's (spiral/wire wound core) on both 4rnr's and will run them until they are bad. After that, I may explore some other options. All ignition wires do the same thing regardless of who they're made by. They may differ in their construction...design and materials....and have a different measure of conductivity, but as long as that falls within service manual specs they're fine. On that note, there are some good ones at the local parts stores with lifetime warranties for comparibly decent prices...compared to NGK. Difference being the NGK's have no lifetime warranty. If I damage one bought at...ie....O'Reilly with the LTW, they are replaced for free. Can't hardly beat that....unless, I can find someone around here who actually sells NGK. So far...none.

To the orig'l topic....
I'm going to pick up some seafoam, oil, and a filter and look at some breather options tonight after work. Hopefully, they'll have just what I need and can take care of it asap. She's not been so happy today. Interestingly, that CEL has still not come back on since yesterday. It's one of two things; the condition has improved <<<fat chance....or the O2 has died altogether. Damn....and it was fairly new. Atleast my bud at O'Reilly will exchange it, though... BUT!!! I will test it first.

If anyone thinks of something not mentioned here, I'm ears. Much thanks.

n4ynu1010

Pretty good read up there
One other note :
I had mine intermittently running kinda iffy a while back and it turned out to be moisture/water in my gas .
Put some gas dryer in (I know its just alchohol) and it did better .
Anyway I am curious to see what actually works , I think some of mine was dirty injectors , I have read alot of documentation that indicates most injector problems are dirt/gum related - I have to move into the new age some more and realize gas is pitiful and alchohol makes its even worse as well as drawing moisture .
And I miss carbuerators (crying)
Keep me posted on it , I still have a couple of repairs/maintenence jobs to do to mine but have to wait for the money tree to grow a bit more (keep watering the curse thing and no growth) .

thook

Hey, if my compression is good (appr. 160psi all 'round), wouldn't that indicate the rings are fine or not? I'm a bit confused as that's what I've always thought.

Anyway, no luck on breathers at the auto store. I'm going to do some more research. There is mod to do to the PCV and the other breather line with some sort of trap that captures the blow by. I read about it a while back. I just haven't found the thread/s yet.

n4ynu1010

You got the 3.0 ?
Check this link for the 3.0 , first page , 171psi standard - 142 Limit , bottom of first page with a max of 14psi +- per cyl. :

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/engine/71services.pdf

And this is for the 22re which the specs are exactly the same :

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/engine/11services.pdf

thook

22RE...

Sorry, guy...that doesn't answer my question very well. I know my compression is good. I went by the FSM when testing.

n4ynu1010

Oh , sorry , well it would be my opinion that if its a close to even 160 across the 4 that your rings would be in good shape , but if that were the case then where would the blowby be coming from , other than guides/seals , do you have a active PCV on your motor ?

thook

Well, that was one of the questions I asked in a post above; could the blow by be entirely due to valve guides/seals? See post #8.

Yes, I have an active PCV valve.