ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I'll post my convo with the guy at the end... But basically it's running WAY too rich(double??... you'll see in the scan of my test results).....



I also did some videos that I'll post in a few. Just gotta upload em. In the videos I basically gave the run down on a couple things and tested the EGR with a Mighty-VAC to see if it holds vacuum..... it did. Also tested the EGR using mighty vac at running at idle and 2Krpm as well... Both cases it tried to stall when I applied vacuum. Also showed a test of vacuum pump on the FPR.... When removing the vacuum from it, the idle increases dramatically, as it should, and when applying vacuum to the top of the FPR it seems to drop in IDLE a bit again.

The test guy is a good guy... Very helpful to me and I've used him for years. He talked to me quite a bit, but said, "If I can't see the compression right now, etc., I can't give you a REALLY accurate picture... But 9/10 times what I'm seeing here is caused by a "bad EGR Solenoid".... NOT usually the EGR, while it can be a problem. This Solenoid has cycled around a million times in this mileage... and, well, they just go! Also, it's lean when it shouldn't be and rich when it shouldn't be... So something weird is going on... But still think it's somehow related to EGR system or possibly something in the top end/ Valve lash, etc."

....AHHHH, really? Ok, well, far as the Modulator/Solenoid; Not sure if there's a test for it... Have to read my book again... But guys, I REALLY NEED SOME TECHNICAL HELP HERE,....... please? lol.

I'll post the vid's next... I can't remember exactly who the smog guys were who said to hit them up... So I'll have to read back and in other threads to find them...

Thanks for your help, guys... IF I can't get help here... I have no choice but to take it in to J.A.C. or something.... But this would maybe explain why my mileage in town has been so bad.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Now that I'm reading that............ It seems I'm more 'too rich' but passed in the 15MPH where he said "This is a bit rich and will cost you fuel, for sure"... But the 25mph test seems to be the one I failed at the end, .... NO PPM......????????? Also, barely passed the NO PPM portion on the 15MPH portion...

Just hoping some SMOG TECH GURU'S will stop by and help me out, ya know? I have 12 days to get my tags and I'm really overwhelmed with some family crises/work, etc.... so not much free time... but I'll try whatever I'm told. (within reason, of course! lol)

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Couple videos of some stuff I looked into, today, after failing. Just to be clear, I'M NOT saying my findings are conclusive or even the proper way to test everything... Just going by memory and what I've read/learned over time, etc...... I also vacuum pump tested the EGR while NOT running, ...it held 5" vacuum without dropping a DROP after several minutes.... ahhhhhh, lol......>>

ksti

Hey Dude, Sorry about the smog fail, I read this, maybe will help Good luck

On a toyota there is a metal tube that comes off the side of the cast iron part of the EGR and runs to a plastic valve that controls the EGR(backpressure switch, I think), this line is almost allways clogged. Run a coathanger down that thing and make sure it's open.

blakefogt

i uh.. paid 70 bucks.. and magically passed smog. the tech wont tell me what he did but he said to send my friends his way. lol. oh well.. i failed because of the misfire. I'll see how it does in 2 years..

extra NO... huh?
EGR and CAT are the first things that come to mind.. but IIRC... you replaced the cat when you did the Borla didn't you? and you've made sure your EGR is functioning properly..

Buck87

Pay the registration without the smog certificate and you will not be penalized for being late. They will send the tags when you pass. Good luck buddy.

TNRabbit

I passed the MD state emissions test without a functioning EGR & a gutted CAT.....

dropzone

iTrader: (6)

i would love to pay $70 extra to pass DEQ...same as SMOG...

dubbsbetty

iTrader: (2)

Chef same thing happened to me two days ago! You have high nox, especially because you only failed the high rpm test like me. My problem is the EGR vacuum modulator is not supplying efficient vacuum to the EGR valve, thus the valve is not opening when the engine gets hot. There is a small filter within the modulator( u.f.o. looking thingy nest to the EGR itself) that gets clogged on these engines. I haven't found the replacement yet but it has been tracked don to the source of my wierd adle surging/ stalling, and slight missfire. Another guy I know has the same issue right now as well, seems to be pretty common failure for the 22re family. I think about 3 or 4 in Hg is what got that little bugger to open up enough to function, sadly not on it's own though.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Mark, like someone mentioned earlier pay your registration online regardless. Otherwise you'll pay penalty fees.

If you can't pass smog within the 12 day mark you can get a temporary operating permit, those are the guys driving those clunkers around with those red squares in the rear windows. Tells everyone you FAILED SMOG! . Kinda embarrassing to have one in your sexy look'n 4runnner though. Hopefully you have another vehicle to drive.

Are you a member of SoCal AAA? If so, use the office on Hawthorne Blvd. across from Y'Not Burger. They can give you your stickers right there instead of having to wait a couple weeks after passing smog. And no lines like the DMV on Western. That's what I had to do since I was still rebuilding after my registration expired.

As far as the vacuum modulator, if that is the problem like someone mentioned, you can pop the cap off....take out the fiber stuff and you'll see a filter disc....it may have a little brown spot of burnt carbon.....rotate the disc so it's in a different position away from the passage way.....and re-assemble. If yours is broken I have two spares you can try out also.

Greg

sdhunter

I failed miserabley with hign NOX on my recent smog. High NOX is caused by high internal combustion chamber heat. EGR is the first place to look. Definitely not running rich, if anything, a bit lean. I would check the following in order:
EGR system
O2 sensor
Cat

Advanced timing caused high NOX too, but you would have failed that portion of the test too if it was too advanced.

Good luck. On my rig, changing the timing and replacing the O2 sensor got me within specs to pass.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Wow, THANKS, GUYS! I found another thread regarding CA smog fail, lol... It's very confusing, for me anyhow, considering I'm not really apt in this part of chemistry.... But I'm trying.

So, It seems the Modulator(EGR Solenoid) is a COMMON culprit for 'WHY HIGH NOX?' ....

I cleaned the Modulator filter pack thing last year(3Kmiles ago or so)... But didn't see anything but that packing foam looking disc in there... Sounds like you're saying there's 2 pieces in there? Again, I STILL can't see how that thing works other than giving the emissions system the ability to pull/push air from 3 different ports on itself... But apparently a couple people have swapped them out and passed.

Lemme share what I'm dealing with here, in total... that might help bring "smogtech" and a couple other guys like that on board... Plus with what you've all posted, I guess I've got some fishing to do in the FSM. (PS> I'm guessing that just because I get the EGR to trip a stall while applying vacuum, that doesn't mean that the modulator is doing it's job, right? lol).......

* Fully Rebuilt 22RE with New Pistons and Rings, Fresh Bore and Hone to 20over, 10-10 Crank Grind(Hot tanked and air reamed all ports/passages as well as possible, including the EGR-HEAD exit)

* All new Manganese Bronze Guides, Valves, Eski Springs, Viton Seals, Head fully freshened up and New HG set to 64#

... New 02(Denso, 5K miles old?),
... New CAT(5K ago) done by reputable exhaust shop,
... New TPS(5K ago- and to the best of my ability, done to specs around 3 times to 4crawler instructions)
... Newer CTS( Napa; seems to read within specs/6K miles old)
... All Injectors serviced by RC(including CSI, 5K miles ago)"Excellent" rating
... Newer 02 Sensor(Denso, 6K miles on it?)
... New Thermostatic Time Temp Sending unit(OEM; The one behind/on the Stat Housing)
... New High End Radiator/Water pump/Alternator/Steering Pump/Steering Box/Plug Wires(6K Miles/Magnecore 8.5MM from LCE)/All new Vacuum and Water Hoses(Besides the heater core hoses and Booster hose)
... New Fuel Pump
... New LCE headers
... Always keep fresh OEM Air Filters in there
... Change Oil Religiously and use OEM Filters

What's not new;

... EGR and Modulator
... Few other things like booster/cruise control module and actuator/Fuel Pressure Regulator/Fuel Damper/Trans



I'm going to further check into the EGR/Modulator testing per FSM and then double check all the routing of the vacuum while at it...(after 200 times, I think I have it right, but I CAN'T SAY I KNOW..... ya know? lol. Never know, might have crossed something 'last time')....

I don't have that high tech calculator thingymadoer to check further into 02 and C02 so I will try to work with what I have and report back what I find.... Some repairs can be put off a while.. This one is REALLY frustrating cuz it's a bit more complicated than most stuff I can just 'test, verify/rule out', ya know?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

SDHunter; Gotcha, thanks.... Just to be clear, what I DIDN'T post in that last one is timing... My timing was at 7*BTDC(He checked and verified it's within specs).... So, not sure.. Could dropping it 2* back to 5*BTDC get it low enough to make a noticeable difference? I answered the rest.... new CAT and 02.

GREGO!! lol.. Sup Loc? hahaha... Yeah, gotta love the Y'Not! lol. I am a member there at that AAA and use them EVERY time. Might need that modulator, I have an extra one as well, but I'd rather make sure what I have is broken, if that's possible, ya know? (cleaned it out, as I said, ... but still not sure if something else can 'really go wrong' in there)...Looks SOOOOOO simplistic... But apparently has made more than one fail! (And yes, I WILL pay if I run too close on time. Thanks Grego)

Dubbs, WUZUP? good to hear from ya.... NOT good to hear that! lol. Hmm.. I answered that portion, so I guess I should look in there again(modulator) and make sure I'm not missing a part.... I cleaned the foam pad in there as best as I could.... didn't look dirty to be honest(Maybe that's a sign in and of itself? I wouldn't know, hahahaa)... Maybe I should try my spare and see if I find a change... Also, not sure about the testing I did on the EGR with the Vacuum Pump....but that seems to be a pretty universal test to see if they're good, ...ya know? :scratchesHead: lol

DZ, how's it, buddy? LOVE that rig of yours, btw! LOOKING MEAN! Anyway... Yeah, I hear ya... I AGREE, AS WELL! lol. I am not opposed to doing that... just want to avoid it if possible. PLUS, seeing my mileage is so poor in town...I'm guessing this might have something to do with it(whateverrrrrrr it is! lol)

Blake... thanks for the heads up, bud.... Letcha know what happens. And yes, the CAT is new. As is the 02-Denso-Dealer(buddy works parts for 20 years now, lol)... SHHHH! lol.

KSTI.... YOU CRAZY MONKEY! lol.... Hey, thanks man! I appreciate ANY input, ...keep it comin! Yeah, not sure if you're speaking of the modulator, as I've been.... It has 3 ports and one does indeed run to the EGR... NOT sure which one runs to that small sub-pipe on the main pipe but I believe one of them does. I'll check it out.

Gotta get my FSM file to open(GRRRRRR!) so I can check into the emissions 'testing' of components, like the MODULAMMMMtor lol... and EGR. (I believe I even tested my BVSV a ways back, "Pumping vacuum into the upper port while reading the pressure on the lower.... Should only read 'blah' when warm and nothing when cold"... something like that... it's all coming back to me...AND I HATE IT! lol.

wreckedrex

High NO means high combustion chamber temps (as previously mentioned). EGR brings those temps down so it's a good place to look. I don't know much about how the system works though Another possible cause is a lean condition, have you replaced the fuel filter? Didn't see that in your list... Dropping the timing and running premium should help too, I'm not sure by how much though.

Buck87

Interesting article in todays paper.

http://www.therepublic.com/view/stor...-HOOD_7749777/

QUESTION: I have begun to have a problem with my 2001 Escape with the V-6 engine. It starts fine in the morning and runs OK for a few miles then begins chugging and loping when I come to a stop. It also hesitates to take off, but then drives OK again after I get to higher speeds. Any ideas of what could be the cause before I make a service appointment?

—Karen

ANSWER: There are many reasons for an engine to idle rough or hesitate on acceleration, but most of them would occur at all times. Your comment that the engine runs fine for a short time before acting up leads me to focus on the EGR system. This is an emission control strategy that allows a small quantity of Exhaust Gasses to be Recirculated through the engine a second time. Adding a small, carefully regulated quantity of exhaust to the incoming air-fuel charge reduces combustion temperature, and the formation of NOx, a nasty emission compound.

I wrote about this a while back regarding a GM vehicle, but have since heard of quite a few other makes and models of vehicles encountering similar issues. Many but not all vehicles have EGR. Some, like yours, use a vacuum-operated EGR valve and others use a purely electric EGR, which isn’t prone to the problem I’ll mention.

EGR is not supposed to occur when the engine is cold, or when idling. If so, engine roughness such as you described may occur. Since your Escape runs well when the engine is cold, it appears the computer controlled electric solenoid (valve) controlling the EGR valve is functioning normally. What I believe may be happening is the control solenoid’s vent filter has become restricted, which causes the EGR valve to linger open when the engine returns to idle. This is a serviceable and inexpensive part, located beneath a removable black plastic cap which snaps on to the top of the EGR control solenoid. Unsnapping the cap reveals a removable foam thimble, which can be either cleaned or replaced. Try removing the filter and drive the Escape for a short time without it to see if this corrects your idle loping/roughness symptom.

On other vehicles with a less obvious vent filter location, or perhaps a non-serviceable integrated filter, one can temporarily disconnect and plug the vacuum hose leading to the EGR valve. Its location, along with that of the control solenoid, should be indicated on the under-hood emission control information label— if EGR isn’t mentioned, the vehicle likely does not have one. Try driving the vehicle for a few minutes to check for a difference in performance. If it markedly improves, an EGR fault exists. If the check engine light illuminates, don’t worry; it’ll go out within a day or two and the stored trouble code will self-erase in about two weeks. Long-term disconnection of the EGR is not advised as it is illegal, increases emissions and may lead to engine-damaging detonation, or spark knock.

I should add that an engine that idles rough cold or hot may be the result of an EGR valve that does not fully close. The cause is often a build-up of carbon on the valve seat. Rough running while under way can result from a faulty EGR position or exhaust pressure sensor.

———

ABOUT THE WRITER

Brad Bergholdt is an automotive technology instructor at Evergreen Valley College in San Jose, Calif. Readers may send him email at under-the-hood@earthlink.net; he cannot make personal replies.

scope103

As others have said, high-NOx is almost certainly in the EGR system. So concentrate there.

One thing not yet mentioned is that the tube from the EGR valve, and the inside of the intake air surge tank (the big rectangular block), can be fouled with a mixture of oil and carbon ("gunk") to the extent that the exhaust gas can't get from the valve to the engine. On my '94 (3vze), the gunk was so bad the idle-ups stopped working, as their ports were "gunked" closed.

I am told that the tube from the EGR to the surge tank should be "warm," not hot. If yours is "cold," there's your problem. You could remove the tube from the EGR to the surge tank, and look. If it looks iffy out there where you can see it, it is probably much worse inside (inside the tube, and inside the surge tank). Then you'll need to remove the surge tank and figure out how to clean the inside (the good news: it will be much easier than doing it on a 3vze).

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, guys,

Just to add to my list a lil, first, since it was mentioned, "You didn't say"....

1. Fuel Filter is relatively new(5-6K Miles)

2. IACV(Aux. Air Valve for Idle up) IS new, 2500-3K miles(I tried cleaning mine, found 2 at the yards.... tired of messing with them I just bit the bullet... it now idles up to 1100-1200RPM as it's supposed to until coming to operating temp.)

3. As with the first time the motor was rebuild at 254K, this time, at 262k(the first machinist screwed me over), again, I cleaned out the EGR as well as possible(including the lil hard line coming off the side of the main pipe), and cleaned the filter element in the Modulator as well.

4. I have almost ZERO 'CHUNKY' running issues or missing. There's a slight lope, but I'm not sure its' anything but the cam. At the exhaust, there's no miss/popping, and as I drive down my steep hill in 3rd gear, 45mph, coasting... NO popping/backfire/misfire occurs. I also have a fairly decent amount of power for a 22re, according to my experience/experience of others that have driven in it.... It'll do 65-70 in 4th and 5th up the Cahon Pass or 14hwy now, sometimes with the AC on, where it used to struggle to do 45mph in 3rd and MAYBE 50mph max.... Sometimes 35-40, hahaha... (anyone who's done that hill knows what I'm talking about, lol).

So; Plenty of power, no visible 'super-shake', no misfiring or backfire, no pinging w/load on hills, holds 750RPM at idle very well, idles up to 1100-1200rpm in the AM, 20mpg on the hwy....... 13MPG IN THE CITY! lol.

For the most part, it's running really well after I rebuilt it myself(which is a relief, lol)..... and the 'slight stink' in the morning, from what I know, is pretty normal, as the motor is in open loop and pretty much 'dumping' fuel until it's warm.

I only mention the above because I just want to give a lil better picture of how it's running. Plus, so that anyone exploring this thread or mine might have some confirmation/more to think about, either way, ya know? Lot's, including as I've done, get lost in one oddity or another, but with a 'PRETTY MUCH NEW' motor, it can be pretty confusing when you feel you've 'GONE THROUGH EVERYTHING', lol.

Scope103, others.... Thanks, much, for making sure I 'get the drift' of this thread... I read every word and I follow ya ....

* I will check the temp of my EGR to Plenum pipe, today at some point.

* I will RE-check the Modulator filter and be sure it's not just a bit gunked up in that one spot, due to breaking in a new motor with it/assembly lube/etc., etc.

* Since I still have no clue as to 'HOW' the modulator works(internally, ...other than a gate?), I will dig deeper into the FSM and do all the tests(as I said), and verify/rule out the components of the EGR system/Vacuum routing, therein.

PS> As some know, I'm dealing with work and many hours of care a day(both around 18, total) for my Stepfather, whom is very ill.... So I just am trying to do as much research/have as much ammo and testing print outs in my hand when I find more time in the next day to step out there and check it out. THANKS ALOT, GUYS! I put a lot of work into this thing....and it's a lil frustrating to fail 'NOX'! lol. S'all good, ...I'M ON THE HUNT! hehe

OrRunner

iTrader: (1)

scribed, Not much to add, but I am averaging 15.5 in town, and have a very similar set up. Notice a small misfire, have been chasing it for years and finally gave up. Curious to see where this goes, I also have original egr and modulator with everything else new, however all was cleaned.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

I spent sometime today diggin around the net and hadnt found anything else that hasnt been mentioned before.

The only thing I found that hasnt been mentioned, on some site, and I could look for it again is saying if your cooling system is functionong properly, that will cause a higher temp in the combustion chamber, basically raising your tem and failing the NO part. That is if I unsderstood everything right. Just one area I havent seen looked at and maybe a possibility (radiator,thermostt...)

I know you do great maintenace on your truck and all of the new parts, really surprised to see you fail.

scope103

http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1990-1995...sion/egrsy.pdf