Broken injector pintle cap - symptoms?

ahickman · 05-04-2008, 12:44 PM

I took my injectors out today as a last measure troubleshooting effort. One of the pintle caps is cracked in half and missing. A second injector shows cracks in the pintle cap as well. Two questions:

1. Would the broken/cracked pintle caps be cause for the cylinder to not fire properly?

2. For those that have sent their injectors to be serviced (witchunter.com), is it worth the time and money to have these serviced?

Aaron

ahickman · 05-04-2008, 12:51 PM

Forgot to attach a picture of the broken injector pintle.

thook · 05-04-2008, 01:36 PM

No, you could take them off actually and the truck would still run fine. But, this does make a person wonder how well the injectors are working. The only problem is that if the engine was running well before you started rebuilding that it's unlikely the injectors are bad. However, I do recommend cleaning injectors. It made a nice difference on my 22re.

I don't remember what thread you posted the info in or what the info was, but what was your compression readings? I know one cylinder was low, right? Well, a bad injector would certainly keep a cylinder from working right, but it would not affect compression.

DanStew · 05-04-2008, 03:01 PM

I am will be getting my injectors back from witchhunter on monday, i cant wait to see them. My caps also busted apart when i pulled the injectors out of the head.

ahickman · 05-04-2008, 04:20 PM

My original posting was http://www.yotatech.com/f116/22re-co...h-idle-144012/ where my 22re threw codes related to the TPS and speed sensor. I have checked and rechecked most all electronics excepting the injectors and the ECM. Just wanted to eliminate the injectors this evening before ordering a replacement ECM tomorrow. Looks like my wallet will be empty between injector cleaning and ECM's. Any last minute suggestions?

thook · 05-04-2008, 08:08 PM

Geez, Aaron....sorry, again. I got a little confused between your present 22re issue and the 3.0. Bleh! Brain fart!

Well, I wish I had something different to tell you, but the only way I'm aware of to know if it's injectors is to test them per FSM procedure. Same for the ECM. And, I would....me, personally...do that before spending any money needlessly. That kind of crap bugs me. I've done it too often only to find it was not the part in question but rather the wiring or something. And, I would hate to see you come to the same conclusion.

I've got a question or two for you, but I'll go post it in the more relevant thread.

Oh, and if you find extra time and interest to learn a bit of something, I found this today...
http://suprasonic.org/public_html/so...rs/RCtech.html

thook · 05-04-2008, 08:09 PM

BTW, nice to know your name....

ahickman · 05-05-2008, 05:28 PM

Matthew, setting down with a cup of coffee and going to read through the link you sent. Much appreciated.

Went ahead and sent off my injectors to witchhunter.com. Might even send off the injectors for the 3.0 if they are noticably better on the 22RE. Given the cost of fuel ($4/gallon), I think any modest attempt at improving my fuel economy may come back in fuel savings.

I found a salvage yard in the DC metro area that has an ECM for $75. The local garage tech agrees with you that the unit may be bad and I think $75 bucks is worth it to find out if this is the problem. So far I have been chasing codes that have no validity (e.g. sensors check out per FSM specs). The only other possibilities that I can think of are a bad fuel regulator or injector leaking/hanging open.

abecedarian · 05-05-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahickman

Matthew, setting down with a cup of coffee and going to read through the link you sent. Much appreciated.

Went ahead and sent off my injectors to witchhunter.com. Might even send off the injectors for the 3.0 if they are noticably better on the 22RE. Given the cost of fuel ($4/gallon), I think any modest attempt at improving my fuel economy may come back in fuel savings.

I found a salvage yard in the DC metro area that has an ECM for $75. The local garage tech agrees with you that the unit may be bad and I think $75 bucks is worth it to find out if this is the problem. So far I have been chasing codes that have no validity (e.g. sensors check out per FSM specs). The only other possibilities that I can think of are a bad fuel regulator or injector leaking/hanging open.

I agree, Matthew's link was quite informative.

On the other note, see if you can the the salvage yard to let you try the ECM/ECU. Maybe you can pay for it in full up front, but get most of it back if it doesn't fix the problem. I'd rather spend 10 to figure out it wasn't the problem rather than 75. Know what I mean?

ahickman · 05-05-2008, 05:49 PM

Yep, I know what you mean.....I would even pay $20 to rule it out

Just read the injector link. Found it interesting to learn that fuel/air ratio can be increased by injecting directly onto the hot valve causing the fuel to vaporize rather than reside as atomized (particles) in the port. Heck, maybe Toyota was taking this into consideration when designing the crossover pipe on the 3.0, keeping those valves hot on #5 and #6

abecedarian · 05-05-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahickman

Yep, I know what you mean.....I would even pay $20 to rule it out

Just read the injector link. Found it interesting to learn that fuel/air ratio can be increased by injecting directly onto the hot valve causing the fuel to vaporize rather than reside as atomized (particles) in the port. Heck, maybe Toyota was taking this into consideration when designing the crossover pipe on the 3.0, keeping those valves hot on #5 and #6

LOL
The thing is that Indy cars run methanol and run VERY high RPM's (>11000) so the fuel is the first thing to hit the valve, it gets sprayed around the cylinder as the turbocharged air comes in behind it then the valve shuts so whatever detonation started doesn't have much time to do anything before the plug fires and finishes the job.

Anyone know the octane rating of nitromethane?

thook · 05-05-2008, 06:47 PM

Hold the bandwagon! I though of another "slight" possibility.

I don't believe the injectors or the regulator to be your problem because the fuel pump issue is upstream from there.....namely at the diagnostic box when you jump the terminals. Which brings me to the possibility of corrosion in the diagnostic box.

You see, what's weird with this is that jumping the Fp and B+ terminals in the d-box is the "normal" method used for diagnosing fuel delivery issues. It hotwires the FP to come on bypassing the COR, IGN, and VAM circuits so that it will continually run. But, your FP is oddly coming on when jumping the TE1 and E1 terminals. This "normally" short circuits input to the ECM from any sensor signals so that 1) the base timing can be set...and ...2) Uninterrupted data can be retrieved from ECM. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Somewhere circuits are crossing when they shouldn't be. So, it's either the ECM or there could be a problem at the diagnostic box....which has an electrical connection and, therefore, some effect on the ECM.

I don't know....it's hairbrained, but it doesn't hurt to check. And!!! It's an easy one!

Now, the other thing is when the ECM went bad in my '92, the fuel pump ran constantly when I merely turned the key on. Does yours do that or only when you jump the TE1-E1 terminals.....with the key on?

Glad you two found interest in the link. One of those things....just ran across it searching the almighty Google for answers.

ahickman · 05-14-2008, 06:36 PM

Matthew,

I just got my injectors back from Witchhunter, put them back in the 22re and buckled the TB back in place. Cranked the engine over and it fired up, but still the same symptoms. Took it for a quick spin after resetting the ECU to try and catch any codes. As an aside, I noticed a tremendous difference in the repsonse and even power as I went through the gears. I have to believe that this was stictly owing to the restored injectors. Amazing. Anyways, I still have the same symptoms and just read through your last response....yes, my fuel pump runs all the time with the key in the accessory position. Correct me if I am wrong, but the pump should come on briefly to bring the pressure up at the fuel rail. It should then shut off until the VAF sees enough air passing through it to call for the pump again (e.g. engine at idle or greater).

I hooked up an oscilloscope to the VF1-E1 terminals on the DLCI box and reved the engine per FSM. The voltage only flopped occasionally. In fact, it stayed at 5V for the most part. FSM says 02 sensor is bad. But no CEL or codes are recorded. Your thoughts? Dirtoyboy has an ECU that I can get, but I hate to start throwing darts in the dark.

Aaron

thook · 05-14-2008, 06:42 PM

I have some thoughts Aaron, but unfortunately I have to go do some other things at the moment. I'll try to get back ASAP. Can't guarantee when......the air is strange, as of late.

You are correct, though....about the fuel pump.

ahickman · 05-14-2008, 06:46 PM

Understand and appreciate your response. Look forward to your insight....cause I am stumped!

thook · 05-14-2008, 08:50 PM

Okay, Aaron.....I found some reading at autoshop. Explains how the fuel delivery system operates. I'll post it in the other thread, though. Keep things tidy, eh?

84sr5yoty · 05-18-2008, 05:23 PM

If the fuel pump is running with the key on, engine off, you have a bad AFM or fuel pump relay (Toyota calls it a circuit opening relay).

The fuel pump cycles on by the opening action of the AFM while cranking the engine (there a switch in there). My guess is a bad AFM.

ahickman · 05-18-2008, 05:30 PM

You hit the nail on the head. In another post , I discovered that the spring/coil in the VAF was broken. Without the tension on the shaft, the cicuit would not open. Thanks.

84sr5yoty · 05-18-2008, 06:14 PM

Ooops, I missed that post.

Glad you figured it out.

05-04-2008, 12:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	Broken injector pintle cap - symptoms? I took my injectors out today as a last measure troubleshooting effort. One of the pintle caps is cracked in half and missing. A second injector shows cracks in the pintle cap as well. Two questions: 1. Would the broken/cracked pintle caps be cause for the cylinder to not fire properly? 2. For those that have sent their injectors to be serviced (witchunter.com), is it worth the time and money to have these serviced? Aaron

05-04-2008, 12:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	Forgot to attach a picture of the broken injector pintle. Attached Thumbnails

05-04-2008, 03:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
DanStew Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 331	I am will be getting my injectors back from witchhunter on monday, i cant wait to see them. My caps also busted apart when i pulled the injectors out of the head. __________________ Dan Stewart 1952 CJ3a 1989 4Runner

05-04-2008, 04:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	My original posting was http://www.yotatech.com/f116/22re-co...h-idle-144012/ where my 22re threw codes related to the TPS and speed sensor. I have checked and rechecked most all electronics excepting the injectors and the ECM. Just wanted to eliminate the injectors this evening before ordering a replacement ECM tomorrow. Looks like my wallet will be empty between injector cleaning and ECM's. Any last minute suggestions?

05-05-2008, 05:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	Matthew, setting down with a cup of coffee and going to read through the link you sent. Much appreciated. Went ahead and sent off my injectors to witchhunter.com. Might even send off the injectors for the 3.0 if they are noticably better on the 22RE. Given the cost of fuel ($4/gallon), I think any modest attempt at improving my fuel economy may come back in fuel savings. I found a salvage yard in the DC metro area that has an ECM for $75. The local garage tech agrees with you that the unit may be bad and I think $75 bucks is worth it to find out if this is the problem. So far I have been chasing codes that have no validity (e.g. sensors check out per FSM specs). The only other possibilities that I can think of are a bad fuel regulator or injector leaking/hanging open.

05-05-2008, 05:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	Yep, I know what you mean.....I would even pay $20 to rule it out Just read the injector link. Found it interesting to learn that fuel/air ratio can be increased by injecting directly onto the hot valve causing the fuel to vaporize rather than reside as atomized (particles) in the port. Heck, maybe Toyota was taking this into consideration when designing the crossover pipe on the 3.0, keeping those valves hot on #5 and #6

05-14-2008, 06:36 PM	#13 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	Matthew, I just got my injectors back from Witchhunter, put them back in the 22re and buckled the TB back in place. Cranked the engine over and it fired up, but still the same symptoms. Took it for a quick spin after resetting the ECU to try and catch any codes. As an aside, I noticed a tremendous difference in the repsonse and even power as I went through the gears. I have to believe that this was stictly owing to the restored injectors. Amazing. Anyways, I still have the same symptoms and just read through your last response....yes, my fuel pump runs all the time with the key in the accessory position. Correct me if I am wrong, but the pump should come on briefly to bring the pressure up at the fuel rail. It should then shut off until the VAF sees enough air passing through it to call for the pump again (e.g. engine at idle or greater). I hooked up an oscilloscope to the VF1-E1 terminals on the DLCI box and reved the engine per FSM. The voltage only flopped occasionally. In fact, it stayed at 5V for the most part. FSM says 02 sensor is bad. But no CEL or codes are recorded. Your thoughts? Dirtoyboy has an ECU that I can get, but I hate to start throwing darts in the dark. Aaron

05-14-2008, 06:46 PM	#15 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	Understand and appreciate your response. Look forward to your insight....cause I am stumped!

05-18-2008, 05:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
84sr5yoty Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pleasanton Ca Posts: 676	If the fuel pump is running with the key on, engine off, you have a bad AFM or fuel pump relay (Toyota calls it a circuit opening relay). The fuel pump cycles on by the opening action of the AFM while cranking the engine (there a switch in there). My guess is a bad AFM.

05-18-2008, 05:30 PM	#18 (permalink)
ahickman Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Cumberland, VA Posts: 165	You hit the nail on the head. In another post , I discovered that the spring/coil in the VAF was broken. Without the tension on the shaft, the cicuit would not open. Thanks.

05-18-2008, 06:14 PM	#19 (permalink)
84sr5yoty Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pleasanton Ca Posts: 676	Ooops, I missed that post. Glad you figured it out.

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