Broke down in the '86 yesterday...gathering input - Page 2

just a 22re · 01-13-2008, 12:20 PM

ok you said you spon the motor over by hand well keep going that will tell you if theres any valve problems hitting the pistons very very easy other then that not so sure if the starter didnt do anything then well im sorry man but the timing chain is a work of art about 2 hours and your good

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tortis · 01-13-2008, 02:02 PM

dcg9381 is right. go ahead and rebuild it. a machine shop shop shouldn't charge that much to true the block and crank. new pistons may be in order depending how bad the cylinders are out of round. at least you won't bust a sweat this week, should be nice and cold

thook · 01-14-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortis

dcg9381 is right. go ahead and rebuild it. a machine shop shop shouldn't charge that much to true the block and crank. new pistons may be in order depending how bad the cylinders are out of round. at least you won't bust a sweat this week, should be nice and cold

Hehe...haha...lol! Yes, it's definitely been cold enough. Enough so that the finger tips are in pain turning nuts and bolts by hand. The shivering I can deal with, but the finger tips?.... Mommy!

Fortunately, tomorrow will be in the 50's with sunny skies. I can finish the tear down then.

Enggg.....after thinking about it more I'm probably just going leave the bottom end alone. What I mean is, I do not have enough money for block work, also. "Not that much" is relative. Remember, tortis, alot of my funding is from the donations we receive for the animals. The injectors are probably in "worse" shape than the rings and cylinders. Good compression does mean things are good = it ain't broke....does it not? And you know what they say....

So, in other words, if I'm going to spend any more money....and reeeaally stretch my budget...I'd rather get the injectors rebuilt. Those seem to be fairly important, too.

thook · 01-14-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just a 22re

ok you said you spon the motor over by hand well keep going that will tell you if theres any valve problems hitting the pistons very very easy other then that not so sure if the starter didnt do anything then well im sorry man but the timing chain is a work of art about 2 hours and your good

I'm not understanding what you're trying to say about the starter, but I'm glad you brought that up about the valves. Not everytime, but a couple of times when I turned the crank by hand....complete revolutions...I did hear a very slight "tap" sound. Wasn't sure if I was just hitting the fan and/or rad shroud with my breaker bar. I will try that now that the rad and shroud are out.....see if I hear anything. I know the valve/s are bent (no compression), but I'm curious. Thanks.

thook · 01-14-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozziesironmanoffroad

remember with a racing cam you'd have to replace other stuff as well... bigger cam spring, etc. good luck

Oh no, I'm not putting in a racing cam. I was just wondering what difference it will make in power if the cam is smaller from possibly having to machine it.

Thanks.

thook · 01-14-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcg9381

Don't just "rering" - it's asking for trouble. At 220k, it's likely that the cylinder bores are starting to get out of round. The ring gap will change as the cylinder moves. It's ashame to go to all that trouble, throw a new set of rings in there and see all your hard work go up in smoke in another few thousand miles.

A motor rebuild takes more time, but it's an easier job than putting on a new clutch.. I've done both... I'd rather rebuild than do a tranny drop & clutch.

Yep, a tranny is pain in the butt job without a shop and a lift.

The cylinders may be getting out of round.....and they may not. I just won't know anything more until I'm down that far. I suppose if it "has" to be done then it "has" to be done. In that case, I'll have to bite the bullet and whip out the fake money card.....which I just don't want to do.

But, if it's just "optional" the bottom end can go for a good while longer to take care of other necessaries now.

I'll make more definite decisions on what will be done once I know what the total damage is and what it will cost. I will have more money to play with if the bearing/s and/or cam are not damaged and if not many valves are damaged. I do hope I can get the injectors done.

thook · 01-14-2008, 04:25 PM

Well, I talked with a mechanic today (this particular one I usually mention whenever I mention a mechanic...Don Clarke) about the ring issue. He said,"Yeah, you might have great compression, but that doesn't tell you anything about the oil rings. You have three on each piston; oil, compression, and scraper. So, the oil rings need replacing because you do have blow-by. No one likes to admit it, but it's true and you might as well accept that." He further went on to say the rings could be easily replaced (easily enough) at this point without actually boring the cylinders. He also said chances are the cylinder are a bit out of round, but it would not be enough to make a crucial difference. The 22RE's are very good motors. They will do great on the first ring job.....as this is the case. He's done countless of them on the 22r's as well as Nissans and some others he mentioned offhand. All I will need to do is hone them to take off the glazing and make sure I get a good and proper cross hatch pattern.....which, to my good fortune, he has taught many classes on doing. So, he's willing to help me out through the whole process. What a guy. I'm going to have to bake him a banana bread.

So, as far as I know ring kits are not very expensive. I'm going to call engbldr and see what kind of package kits/deals he's got that will cover all the gaskets and what not I will need.

The guys at the shop (where I'm doing this job) are going to loan me an engine stand and pull the motor with their tow truck. Woohoo! Yeah...

tortis · 01-14-2008, 04:30 PM

i am going to kick back and watch. i am going to pray to the great block god that your block's cylinders are not egg shaped. what would it cost to true the block? are you going to send the injector to , hmmm , i can't think of his name. witch something????

SEAIRESCUE · 01-14-2008, 04:57 PM

I wonder if the cam broke?

Moving on, put Hastings iron rings a with the second ring scraper. I have had outstanding good results using those rings. I have honed the snot out of some really oval cylinders yet within 30 minutes of getting hot, the rings seated. The 22r block is high in nickel content and hard. I cleaned my cylinder with lacquer thinner and sprayed them with black primer to ensure that I honed it enough to make them round by removing all the paint. No charge for that trick....ha ha ha.

Engine builder is a great resource for parts. I highly recommend turning the crank. Don't skimp there. Engine builder has a mid range torque cam that may interest you. His own design specs from what I understand. He is in Washington State. Call him and discuss your needs. He will get you back on the road with minimal cost and maximum smile.

My $0.02

tortis · 01-14-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEAIRESCUE

I wonder if the cam broke?

Moving on, put Hastings iron rings a with the second ring scraper. I have had outstanding good results using those rings. I have honed the snot out of some really oval cylinders yet within 30 minutes of getting hot, the rings seated. The 22r block is high in nickel content and hard. I cleaned my cylinder with lacquer thinner and sprayed them with black primer to ensure that I honed it enough to make them round by removing all the paint. No charge for that trick....ha ha ha.

Engine builder is a great resource for parts. I highly recommend turning the crank. Don't skimp there. Engine builder has a mid range torque cam that may interest you. His own design specs from what I understand. He is in Washington State. Call him and discuss your needs. He will get you back on the road with minimal cost and maximum smile.

My $0.02

hmmmm. learned something new. so these blocks are hard and don't wear much. hmmm. i'll be damn. i am going to try that.

thook · 01-14-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortis

i am going to kick back and watch. i am going to pray to the great block god that your block's cylinders are not egg shaped. what would it cost to true the block? are you going to send the injector to , hmmm , i can't think of his name. witch something????

Don't worry about it, tortis.

If I go to honing them and they are way wacked so be it. But, I seriously doubt that will be the case. Don Clarke has been a mechanic, Univ. teacher, and race car builder as long as I've been born. He really has done it all. Car dealerships in this area (Toyota included) have consulted with him and sent vehicles to him that they could not troubleshoot and repair. He'd never admit to his excellence, though. And the man just does not skimp or cut corners when it comes to repair. I'm learning more he has never steered me wrong.....even when I've been skeptical of his advice.

I'm not real sure what it would cost to true the block. But, when you add the cost of new pistons and everything else needed it's a lot more money than I have. A complete rebuild, if it was needed, would have to wait quite a while for enough cash to manifest itself.

I'm not worried about it, though. Honing and replacing rings is very common, as I'm learning, and with good results....especially on these motors.

The injectors will have to wait.

That little detail was contingent on whether or not the rings needed replacing. I'm really having to nickle and dime this project....as is usually the case.

I was going to send them to not Witchunter but another place. I don't recall the name offhand, but I learned about this source from another thread here. He/they have an online "store" and charge around $50 for the job. Excellent ratings, too.

thook · 01-14-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEAIRESCUE

I wonder if the cam broke?

Moving on, put Hastings iron rings a with the second ring scraper. I have had outstanding good results using those rings. I have honed the snot out of some really oval cylinders yet within 30 minutes of getting hot, the rings seated. The 22r block is high in nickel content and hard. I cleaned my cylinder with lacquer thinner and sprayed them with black primer to ensure that I honed it enough to make them round by removing all the paint. No charge for that trick....ha ha ha.

Engine builder is a great resource for parts. I highly recommend turning the crank. Don't skimp there. Engine builder has a mid range torque cam that may interest you. His own design specs from what I understand. He is in Washington State. Call him and discuss your needs. He will get you back on the road with minimal cost and maximum smile.

My $0.02

I hope the cam didn't break. I'll know all about the cam and head tomorrow. If the cam is damaged, likely the head/journals will be too. (Mommy?

) I've talked with Ted before and another fellow in the shop a couple of times. If I do need a cam or even a head I'll talk to him.

Hastings iron rings? Second scraper ring? Why turn the crank?

I'll have to use that primer trick....thanks.

Don Clarke suggested I use WD-40 when I honed the cylinders. It would loosen the glazing, help visually indicate the crosshatch pattern angle I was getting, and I guess how round I was honing them. I don't know....he didn't mention that part.

I'll have to ask him.

TNRabbit · 01-15-2008, 01:23 PM

Matthew: I can't believe it's taken me this long to see your thread! I was talking with Pete today and he mentioned you'd had trouble, so I decided to check it out for myself. Sorry about your bad luck, but hey, these trucks are old and they aren't getting any newer!

Regarding the hardness of the cylinder walls, you saw how little (actually, NONE) my cylinder walls had worn in 218,000 miles. I only knocked the glazing off my cylinders. I think you'll be good with new rings, but check all the clearances with the pistons as well (check my thread for details; the FSM lists the specs between cylinder wall & piston). Hopefully you won't need to replace the pistons.

Be careful pulling your head; I remember there being something that is missed a lot when taking the head off the 22re that holds it in place when you think it should be coming loose....?

ANYWAY, good luck & PM me anytime if you need advise or just morale support!

thook · 01-16-2008, 07:58 AM

Thanks, TN.

I didn't get the head off yesterday. I ran out of daylight. I've got the headbolts loose.....including that illusive timing chain cover bolt in front of the cam gear....the one you refer to. The rocker rail just has to come off now and then the head. That happens today. I was hoping to pop the engine out today, but there's a chance of rain so I may not get that far. Playing it by ear. So far, I see no damage....as in broken cam.

That's encouraging about the cylinders. I'll read your thread over later tonight.

Now, I must run to beat the rain. Ta!

Thanks all!

hud · 01-16-2008, 08:44 AM

I'm not really sure how far into it you are, monitarily speaking, but have you priced out a junkyard 22re for comparison?

Might be able to get a long block for a few hundred, and save yourself some time.

thook · 01-16-2008, 06:05 PM

You're not the first person to suggest that. And someone else even suggested just getting a reman'd motor. I'm not in to either idea. Number one, it would take a lot more time to find a used motor (much less in good shape) than it would be to rebuild mine. They aren't easy to find in my area. Number two, I know how used motors go. They almost always need work. And a reman'd, to me, is rediculous.....unless my motor is just trashed....because I'd come out ahead rebuilding mine financially. The machine work I'd have to pay for, but parts and assembly would all be done by me. In either case, it's not a consideration until I know total damage....which would have to be severe. Like a cracked block or something.

I got the head off today.....no rain! Ha! Even a bit of sunshine. I was elated. I inspected the cam, journals, valves, and rocker assembly. Everything looks perfect for the exception of the valves. From the impact marks on the cylinders and intake valves (noted by the carbon deposits knocked off), all four intake valves are bent. Probably because I tried starting it so many times...I don't know. And, I won't know what damage there is to the valve ports until the shop inspects. Unless the head has been cracked somehow, I'm going to have it refurbished to whatever degree necessary with new valves.....of course.

That raises a question....
I don't fully understand what is done to head in this case. I'm guessing the valve ports would be bored out? Much like a block would be in the case of installing new pistons and such? If so, would be possible or prudent to go with something like oversized valves or would that consitute having to do other things....like a larger cam and such? The cam, from what I can tell, is just fine. Being so, I will leave alone.

In addition to the head, I have the motor ready to be pulled, but the guys at the shop were too busy today to help me pull it. Either that, or they were too afraid to get out in the cold. Wimps

....lol. Anyway, the motor will have to come out next week and then I can look at the bottom end more closely.

Interesting tid bit...
The driver's side chain guide was loose. I believe I mentioned that already, and I believed it to be from wear. But NO! The fastener had backed out a bit causing the flop. Apparently, the fellow that I had replace the timing chain assembly when I first got the vehicle didn't tighten it down well enough. I can't imagine the guide flopping would interfere enough with the chain to cause it to jump, but....????

tortis · 01-16-2008, 06:19 PM

progress. that is good. better break out the heaters gonna get really cold this weekend. i guess your are a little too busy to go trout fishing with me this weekend

i don't mind standing around in 30 degree weather fishing, but work on my truck, don't think so. hats off to you for struggling with the weather. still subscribed

thook · 01-16-2008, 06:41 PM

Too busy is definitely the word for it.

I still have to figure out why the 4wd isn't working the '92 amidst everything else. My wife reeeaaally wants her truck back!

Wish I could go, though. I wouldn't fish, but I would watch and drink the beer. Life IS good!

Progress, indeed. I'm amazed how much wrenching is involved in this. By the time I got to the last few bolts (prepping for motor pull) I felt like throwing the wrenches out on the highway and watching as cars ground them into the blacktop. I'd probably felt different were it not for being at the top of a foothill where winds seem to have 100x's more bone chilling capacity. I've found more than a couple times the underneath of vehicles increases wind velocity. Someone needs to develop Gort-tex coveralls!!!

No more wrenching until next week, though. I have firewood to split and animal shelters and a wellhouse to fortify so no one or no thing freezes during this cold snap. Plus, the weekend arrives with the weekend job in town. Maybe by Sunday I will have imploded and business will be a none issue, though. In which case, look for me at the lake. I'll be somewhere out in the middle floating a canoe.

tortis · 01-17-2008, 04:01 AM

cardboard makes a great wind break. cold air is denser, so you tend to feel it more.

thook · 01-17-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortis

cardboard makes a great wind break. cold air is denser, so you tend to feel it more.

So does four walls......burrrrr. It's 28* today; a raging density issue.

I was wondering...
Anyone every heard of a starter seizing and momentarily seizing the motor up via the flywheel? I noticed yesterday that the motor side of the flywheel teeth appears to have worn from grinding. I don't recall them looking that way last Jan. when I replaced the clutch. The grinding is not terribly extreme and no teeth appear to be broken....though I've not seen the entire flywheel yet.

thook · 01-17-2008, 09:12 AM

Okaaay.....just got off the phone with Don Clarke. The starter theory is out. That couldn't happen. So, I mentioned the bolt backing out on the guide and he questioned the whereabouts of the second bolt. I said it simply wasn't there. So, guess what. It's looking the like the second bolt fell out of it's hole and into the chain/gear....if there is in fact a second bolt. I don't recall. Can anyone verify this? I won't actually know until I get the timing cover off, but that would explain it all. Hope it didn't munch the crank gear!

thook · 01-17-2008, 09:19 AM

Yep, there's a second bolt. Just looked the FSM blow out. You can see second bolt hole for the driver's side guide though the blow out doesn't actually show the bottom bolt. I think the mystery of the cause is solved. Now to fix it.

tortis · 01-17-2008, 10:02 AM

darn skippy there is a second bolt. tip:thread locker on the timing chain guides bolts. that sucks matthew. never heard of one backing out before.

dcg9381 · 01-17-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thook

I'm not real sure what it would cost to true the block. But, when you add the cost of new pistons and everything else needed it's a lot more money than I have. A complete rebuild, if it was needed, would have to wait quite a while for enough cash to manifest itself.

First I understand the budget issue. If you don't have it, you don't have it.

I didn't understand how donations for the animals meant money for the truck, though.. It's probably better that I don't understand.

At least have the bores checked. It's true that they could be fine and it's also true that they could be worn in the middle - it can go either way. By checking it you'll get some peace of mind and be able to make an educated decision. You can ask the best engine builders in the world for advice, but it's still better to check your core!

Last I checked, cylinder boring was around $20/cyl. IE - less than the cost of a cam on 4 cyl. I know this would add in the cost of new pistons, but you're talking under $300 for a complete rebuild kit (with pistons) from engnbdlr.
Under $500 is cheap for a rebuild.. :-)

It's true that some people just slap a new set of rings in there and go - I think most of that comes from the old pushrod V8 days. I've seen Chevy 305s run with cam lobes completely ground off. You'll also note that those motors don't typically make 200k miles like a 22R series.

Injectors, although ugly - usually don't come back clogged up in my experience. There are some exceptions of course. If I was on a budget, I'd skimp on the injector cleaning and apply that money to other things.

If you do get them cleaned, witchunter replaces all the rubber and pintle caps as part of his fee. It's generally a value over other cleaning services. The darn rubber gaskets at toyota will end up costing you a fortune if you go OEM.. I *think* they're included in engnbldr's kits though....

Cam hp: Dyno runs I've seen show peak hp improvement in the 3-5hp range. The good news is that you'll get that improvement across the RPM range with a good cam...

Good luck on your rebuild!

thook · 01-17-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortis

darn skippy there is a second bolt. tip:thread locker on the timing chain guides bolts. that sucks matthew. never heard of one backing out before.

Neither have I. I wished I'd known or thought to look for it when I had the valve cover off a little while go. I'm definitely using thread lock on the new timing set. And, of course, chase the threads.

Skippy? LOL! That's funny.....sport...hahaha!

01-13-2008, 02:02 PM	#27 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	dcg9381 is right. go ahead and rebuild it. a machine shop shop shouldn't charge that much to true the block and crank. new pistons may be in order depending how bad the cylinders are out of round. at least you won't bust a sweat this week, should be nice and cold __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights

01-14-2008, 04:30 PM	#33 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	i am going to kick back and watch. i am going to pray to the great block god that your block's cylinders are not egg shaped. what would it cost to true the block? are you going to send the injector to , hmmm , i can't think of his name. witch something???? __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights Last edited by tortis; 01-14-2008 at 04:33 PM.

01-16-2008, 06:19 PM	#42 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	progress. that is good. better break out the heaters gonna get really cold this weekend. i guess your are a little too busy to go trout fishing with me this weekend i don't mind standing around in 30 degree weather fishing, but work on my truck, don't think so. hats off to you for struggling with the weather. still subscribed __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights

01-17-2008, 04:01 AM	#44 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	cardboard makes a great wind break. cold air is denser, so you tend to feel it more. __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights

01-17-2008, 10:02 AM	#48 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	darn skippy there is a second bolt. tip:thread locker on the timing chain guides bolts. that sucks matthew. never heard of one backing out before. __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights

01-14-2008, 04:57 PM	#34 (permalink)
SEAIRESCUE Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 491	I wonder if the cam broke? Moving on, put Hastings iron rings a with the second ring scraper. I have had outstanding good results using those rings. I have honed the snot out of some really oval cylinders yet within 30 minutes of getting hot, the rings seated. The 22r block is high in nickel content and hard. I cleaned my cylinder with lacquer thinner and sprayed them with black primer to ensure that I honed it enough to make them round by removing all the paint. No charge for that trick....ha ha ha. Engine builder is a great resource for parts. I highly recommend turning the crank. Don't skimp there. Engine builder has a mid range torque cam that may interest you. His own design specs from what I understand. He is in Washington State. Call him and discuss your needs. He will get you back on the road with minimal cost and maximum smile. My $0.02

01-16-2008, 08:44 AM	#40 (permalink)
hud Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Laramie, Wyoming Posts: 56	I'm not really sure how far into it you are, monitarily speaking, but have you priced out a junkyard 22re for comparison? Might be able to get a long block for a few hundred, and save yourself some time.

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