Broke down in the '86 yesterday...gathering input

thook · 01-02-2008, 08:15 PM

So, I stopped at the feed store and went to leave, turned the key and heard something snap down under the vehicle....somewhere in the vicinity of the motor. You know how sounds can travel, so I wasn't sure at first. Tried to start again, but all I got was the starter cranking. The motor would not turn over. Called a Toyota tech at the dealer...real helpful..honestly. He said sounds either like the thrust washer (allowing the crankshaft to push forward from the clutch thereby misaligning the flywheel with the starter) or the starter itself breaking. Couldn't do anything that night, so I went back today. No play in the crankshaft pulley, so I mostly ruled out the thrust washer. Fortunately, the feed store's right across from O'Reilly, and so I got a starter. Took about an hour to change it out (tip: if you can, pull the oil filter off to work the top starter nut on the stud and can clear the fuel filter) with little luck. The motor now turns over, but very slowly and will not fire. I'm getting fuel and spark and air and all that jazz, though. One guy at the feed store suggested the timing chain may have snapped, so yanked the valve cover. Turn the crankshaft over by hand and it turns the timing chain and cam pulley. Still intact. One thing I noticed when pulling the vacuum lines to remove the valve cover was steam coming out. Unburned fuel in the plenum....not supposed to be happening. The even more crucial thing I noticed, though, was that when I turned the crankshaft by hand there was little to no resistance in the crank from would be compression. After telling a mechanic I trust all the symptoms, he said it sounded like a bent valve/s....which would explain no firing and no compression resistance. (BTW, had the battery tested at the place I bought it...which is fortunately right next to the feed store where I broke down....even though it's brand new. It tested strong. All my connections are intact and clean.) Anyway, the mechanic suggested....possibly...the bent valve theory suspecting the timing may have jumped from a "push pin/dowel rod" having sheared.???? In the process, the motor must have temporarily seized breaking the 7+yr old starter.

I've never done a timing chain and not familiar with this rod/pin, so does anyone have an experience such as this? If so, what can I look for? Also, how can I further deduce if the valve/s is bent without actually pulling everything apart just yet? When I get it towed homewards tomorrow, I will run a compression test.

This all happened completely out of the blue with no warning that I'm aware of. I have had some intermittent timing chain noise (with an associated slightly high idle) for a little while, but the guides are intact and I figured it was just some slack from the 70k age of it. Don't know if this even related to the recent event, but maybe.?????

Any input? Similar experiences? Need more info? Could you follow my post?

Thanks

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85TurboRunner · 01-02-2008, 11:21 PM

If you have heard noise from the timing chain then it is possible one of your timing guides broke and maybe the lack of tension made the chain skip a tooth but I don't think one tooth or two could cause a bent valve. I'm sure someone can maybe shed more light on this.

thook · 01-03-2008, 05:27 AM

Hmmm....I suppose that's a possibility. The chain rattle has had my concern, but figured it could wait until I had the time....and warmer weather....to replace it not figuring it could possibly skip. I already have a front end kit for it.

The driver's side guide is loose, but not broken off. I did tell the mechanic about it, but he didn't seemed alarmed by that. I suppose I'll run the idea by him and see what he says. Hell, maybe it skipped more than one.

Thanks.

thook · 01-03-2008, 05:30 AM

It just occurred to me the tensioner may have failed or be failing enough to cause it to skip.

thook · 01-03-2008, 05:48 AM

Found this article on checking slack for the chain. I believe I will do this today.

4.13: Checking slack on timing chains

Several methods for checking slack have appeared on the list. One of
the easiest ways to check is as follows:

Remove distributor cap and spark plugs (removing the spark plugs allows
you to turn the engine over much easier). Locate the crankshaft pulley
and timing marks. On many engines, the crankshaft bolt is 19mm. Turn
the engine over with your socket wrench on the crankshaft bolt until you
reach TDC or "0" on the timing marks. Turn slowly (in the opposite
direction) past TDC while watching the movement of the rotor (inside the
distributor). A movement of 10-12 timing degrees before the rotor
starts moving indicates excessive slack in the chain and necessitates
replacement. New chains generally have less than 5 degrees of slack.

contributing: Allen T "Koji" Kam (tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu)
Aaron Lung (lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com)

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/toyotafaq.txt

element · 01-03-2008, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thook

After telling a mechanic I trust all the symptoms, he said it sounded like a bent valve/s....which would explain no firing and no compression resistance.Thanks

Wouldn't "no resistance" mean no compression on all cylinders? Does that seem likely?

Good luck with this. I’ll be interested to hear what you find out.

thook · 01-03-2008, 09:34 AM

No, but without actually having the engine apart nor having done a compression test done yet I'm kinda making "best" guesses. Likely it doesn't have "no" compression as there is some, I suppose. But, compared to before this happened there might as well be zilch....lol. It's just way too easy to turn.

I spoke with someone today that suggested if there was no compression....or just very little....likely it would crank easier than it is.

I won't know any more than mere guesses until I start digging into it and testing things, but anyone with suggestions I'm open ears until then.

tortis · 01-03-2008, 02:23 PM

well???? what is the prognoses???? i have done 2 timing chains in as many months. would rather replace a clutch.

drew303 · 01-03-2008, 02:44 PM

I would rather do a timing chain than a clutch!

you couuuld do a manual compression test by turning the crank by hand.

This is a weird one. Do you hear any noise in the motor when you hand crank it? I'd pull all the plugs and have someone hand crank it while I examined the pisto heads w/ a flash light.

I can't imagine the timing chain skipping a tooth w/out actually taking some teeth with it!

This is a tough one for someone who isnt familiar w/ timing but Id put the motor at TDC and check where the rotor in the distributor lands. I personally know where it should be .. which is like 35 counterclockwise from 12 oclock.. ah its hard to describe. But it should land on #1.

I think if I couldnt find anything wrong with how it cranks or sounds and its not throwing codes and is getting fuel/air and the plugs are all gapped right (0.031" fyi) and not fouled.... Id pull the oil pan before I went into the front cover or pulled the head.

You can hand crank it with the pan off and probably hear/see more.

It's hard to diagnose this one without actually having my hands on the motor.

drew303 · 01-03-2008, 02:50 PM

hmm... you said the motor is easy to hand crank... but when u use the starter it turns over slow?

My99 · 01-03-2008, 04:57 PM

Man. That sucks. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Wish I could give you some guidance, but it sounds like you have pretty much hit on all the possibilities. Horrible weather to be working on a rig. Good luck and keep us posted.

fire5 · 01-03-2008, 05:19 PM

Thinking out loud here, thook...would a possible (and easiest) way to check if a valve is bent - with the head still on - with the valve cover off already - take the exhaust manifold off, spray a carb or brake cleaner through a valve port and see if it leaks out the other side?
I used this technique (mind you with the head already on the ground) when checking my valves after a timing chain failure.
I dunno, perhaps the least invasive.

thook · 01-04-2008, 05:06 AM

Thanks for all the replies, guys! (Hey, that rhymed....

)

There are many, many things I'd rather do, also....and NONE of them have anything to do with a vehicle.

But, I can't complain really. This whole thing happened in a very fortuitous way. I mean, aside from the eyeball freezing wind the past couple days (thanks for the sentiment Kyle), the circumstances could have been a lot more challenging. I broke down at a place where I know everyone (for almost 15yrs), so the vehicle was safe and no inconvenience to anyone. The parts store was a 2min walk. The fellow that towed it yesterday has his shop a mile from my house and will let me work on it there....albeit out on the grass. (The shop's only so big for paying jobs). And the fellow, his son, and co-worker are all friend's who'll lend me advice and tools as necessary.

The son and I had a look at it once it was towed to the shop, and since he has an extra cab and has done everything that could be done to a 22RE his troubleshooting skills are much more honed. The motor is not building enough compression...if any at all....to fire the cylinders. It was way too cold and windy (plus little daylight left) to pull the valve cover and look at things real well, so I'm not sure what all's going on, yet.....as in how it happened, IF that's what's happened. I won't be able to do anything until next week. But, Greg (the son) said I could pull the rocker rail off so that all the valves close shut and run a compression test to determine if any valves are bent. He said even if the timing chain did skip (which is seeming very likely) it doesn't mean any valves are bent. I may have gotten lucky. Makes sense....I recall a thread here fairly recently where a guy's chain broke yet no valves bent. We'll see. Plus, since the v-cover will be off as well as the rocker rail.....if no valves are bent.....I can do the timing chain (the whole front end, actually) and replace the valve stem seals all at the same time while leaving the head and bottom end alone.

Speaking of the bottom end, here's some good news. I don't know if any of you all know about or remember that I had started a thread a little while back where I was concerned about blow by and the rings on this thing. Greg point-blank told me that if the rings were bad enough to create blow-by it WOULD get smoke and I would NOT get the compression readings I got. Soooo, I don't HAVE to do the rings....which I was my original intention when I did the timing chain this spring. My PCV valves is probably just not shutting well even though it appears to be okay. In the event the valve/s are bent I might, though.....plus head work and front end and anything else that looks in need of taking care of. We'll see.

Anyway, to answer some questions...
Drew, I don't hear any noise or even feel any grinding when I turn the crank by hand. There's no play in the crank, either. I did notice a noise once or twice when I turned the motor with the key, but it seems to be more towards the top end. Not sure if it was just fuel partially igniting.

I didn't notice that any teeth were broken on the cam gear, but I wasn't really looking closely or even for that when I had the cover off the other day. I was just looking to see if the timing chain was still in one piece. If I were to recall on what I remember seeing, I'd say no, though. If there was enough slack in the chain, however, it could still jump with necessarily taking any out in the process. I really am suspicious of the tensioner due to the aformentioned intermittent rattling. I know it's not the valves as adjusted them this past summer.

I'll take note of the distributor and cam gear condition and positioning when I get it all apart next week. The plugs are practically new and gapped properly. Not sure if they're fouled. Haven't looked.

And, yes, the crank turns very easily by hand but the motor cranks slowly with the key.

Thanks again. See y'all later.

thook · 01-12-2008, 07:43 PM

A few days ago I ran a compression test. Pulled the valve cover off and backed the valve adjusters all the way out so the valves would close. Tested #1 cylinder and zero compression. I don't know about the other 3 because I stopped there. No point really I figured. Time to tear it down. I've got most of the front end off so far. The rest will be this coming week.

The timing chain jumped enough so that the distributor sits at 2 o'clock now instead of 11 which would be terminal #1. So, the timing is waaaaay off. Undoubtedly there are bent valves, but what cause this to happen...the chain jumping....is still unkown. I had a dream I broke a cam bearing. No damage at all to the cam gear. Something must have seized throwing the chain off.....and breaking the starter. Cam bearing would explain it. We'll see once the head is off and I dismantle it.

Right now I'm looking for gasket kits. I have the front end already covered...just need the rest. Engnbldr, most likely. I'm reusing the headbolts as they are not TTY and have never been touched before. I didn't realize those forkers were so big...wooh! I'm also going to replace all the vac lines and small coolant hoses 'round the intake.

More to come....for those interested. I'll post comments and details once I know more. This is a learning experience, for sure. Never seen this happen.

drew303 · 01-12-2008, 08:35 PM

very interesting

The chain skipping is seeming more likely now. If it moved that much somehow you could of bent some valves would easily explain the zero compression (as opposed to a HG failure).

I would definetly pull the head at this point. A little word of advice somtimes the heads take a lot of muscle to free em from the headgasket (block). I had to use my cherry picker to pull my brothers head off (that sounds funny) it wouldnt budge otherwise. Lil pressure and a plastic hammer and it came off.

Pull the oil pan as well (you'll want to anyways to get the front cover back on properly). Will give you a good look at the crank, bearings, pistons etc.

pete f · 01-12-2008, 08:37 PM

Keep us posted Matthew ...Remember you told me you like a challange!!!good luck

thook · 01-12-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew303

very interesting

The chain skipping is seeming more likely now. If it moved that much somehow you could of bent some valves would easily explain the zero compression (as opposed to a HG failure).

I would definetly pull the head at this point. A little word of advice somtimes the heads take a lot of muscle to free em from the headgasket (block). I had to use my cherry picker to pull my brothers head off (that sounds funny) it wouldnt budge otherwise. Lil pressure and a plastic hammer and it came off.

Pull the oil pan as well (you'll want to anyways to get the front cover back on properly). Will give you a good look at the crank, bearings, pistons etc.

You would pull the head? Are you sure?.........

<<<smart alec<<<

Lol....yeah, the head is definitely coming off. The chain definitely skipped. And I'm positive one or more valves are bent. If you heard the way it sounds when you crank it....along with the other symptoms....you'd go,"Yep...that's messed up." The thing nagging me at this point is not knowing about the bearing cap/s, yet. I truly hope nothing is screwed beyond repair.

BTW, that raises a question. It occurred to me if the cam and journals need machining, that will make the cam smaller. Would this not affect the amount the power the motor would then produce....considering a larger "racing" cam (with larger valves, etc.) produces more?

Thanks for the tip on the head. It's never been off in 220k miles, so it probably will be quite stuck. If it comes to extreme measures, though, the vehicle's park 50 ft. from a shop where they have all kinds of goodies. It will come off! Rarrrgh!

The oil pan? Hmmmm.....maybe, maybe not. Since I'm pulling head, there won't be a problem securing the timing cover. The only thing about the pan is I'm still considering replacing the cylinder rings and the pan would have to come off to do so. Undecided. Reason? The front diff., of course, has to come down. That, mi amigo, will be quite a project. Not afraid of doing it. It will boil down to time and money. Compression before this breakdown was very good which should indicate the rings being in adequate shape. Although, there are alot of miles on them. Enggh....I'll think about it more after I get down that far. For now, all I want to think about is making chocolate chip brownies.

Thanks for the input, Drew.

Hasta luego!

thook · 01-12-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete f

Keep us posted Matthew ...Remember you told me you like a challange!!!good luck

It's true. I like a challenge. The learning is what I like about it.....

Thanks, Pete. I'll keep ya posted.

And good luck with yours.

My99 · 01-13-2008, 07:37 AM

Hey man keep us updated. Hopefully the damage isn't too extreme.

ozziesironmanoffroad · 01-13-2008, 07:52 AM

remember with a racing cam you'd have to replace other stuff as well... bigger cam spring, etc. good luck

tortis · 01-13-2008, 08:12 AM

the front diff is nothing. 12 little bolts and three big ones, well 5 big ones if you take the drivers side mount of the diff. if you were just a little closer i would come lend a hand,but since your are not closer i will just give you moral support.

YotaJunky · 01-13-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thook

You would pull the head? ...I'm still considering replacing the cylinder rings and the pan would have to come off to do so....
Hasta luego!

If you do the rings, or you going to leave the engine in, or pull it? If it were me, and I decided to do the rings, I'd just pull the thing out. I'm in the process of replacing a snapped chain on another 22re at the moment and may have to deal with bent valves myself....

111db · 01-13-2008, 08:50 AM

Why don't you just pull the engine instead of dropping the diff? At 220k you might as well re-ring and check all your crank bearings, etc. You're doing 2/3 the work of an engine overhaul as it is, and everything you're doing would go much faster out of the truck. I think I had my 22RE out in under 2 hours, and about the same to install it. Just a thought.

thook · 01-13-2008, 11:37 AM

Thanks everyone.

Have any of you all replaced the rings before? How many of you would do it? How hard is it to mate the engine back up to the tranny? I've done a clutch job on this thing and it was not easy getting the tranny back on the motor.

dcg9381 · 01-13-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thook

Thanks everyone.

Have any of you all replaced the rings before? How many of you would do it? How hard is it to mate the engine back up to the tranny? I've done a clutch job on this thing and it was not easy getting the tranny back on the motor.

Don't just "rering" - it's asking for trouble. At 220k, it's likely that the cylinder bores are starting to get out of round. The ring gap will change as the cylinder moves. It's ashame to go to all that trouble, throw a new set of rings in there and see all your hard work go up in smoke in another few thousand miles.

A motor rebuild takes more time, but it's an easier job than putting on a new clutch.. I've done both... I'd rather rebuild than do a tranny drop & clutch.

01-02-2008, 11:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
85TurboRunner Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Vancouver WA Posts: 1,063	If you have heard noise from the timing chain then it is possible one of your timing guides broke and maybe the lack of tension made the chain skip a tooth but I don't think one tooth or two could cause a bent valve. I'm sure someone can maybe shed more light on this. __________________ 1985 4runner 22re 5spd.

01-03-2008, 02:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	well???? what is the prognoses???? i have done 2 timing chains in as many months. would rather replace a clutch. __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights

01-03-2008, 02:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
drew303 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 2,032	I would rather do a timing chain than a clutch! you couuuld do a manual compression test by turning the crank by hand. This is a weird one. Do you hear any noise in the motor when you hand crank it? I'd pull all the plugs and have someone hand crank it while I examined the pisto heads w/ a flash light. I can't imagine the timing chain skipping a tooth w/out actually taking some teeth with it! This is a tough one for someone who isnt familiar w/ timing but Id put the motor at TDC and check where the rotor in the distributor lands. I personally know where it should be .. which is like 35 counterclockwise from 12 oclock.. ah its hard to describe. But it should land on #1. I think if I couldnt find anything wrong with how it cranks or sounds and its not throwing codes and is getting fuel/air and the plugs are all gapped right (0.031" fyi) and not fouled.... Id pull the oil pan before I went into the front cover or pulled the head. You can hand crank it with the pan off and probably hear/see more. It's hard to diagnose this one without actually having my hands on the motor. __________________ 1987 Pickup, single cab, 22R, new head, 260 cam TG 3" SAS, rear disc brakes, chromoly rear axles, Chromoly Birfs, Tcase brake, 37x12.50R15 MT/Rs, 5.29 gears, rear Aussie Locker, front Detroit Truetrac.

01-03-2008, 02:50 PM	#10 (permalink)
drew303 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 2,032	hmm... you said the motor is easy to hand crank... but when u use the starter it turns over slow? __________________ 1987 Pickup, single cab, 22R, new head, 260 cam TG 3" SAS, rear disc brakes, chromoly rear axles, Chromoly Birfs, Tcase brake, 37x12.50R15 MT/Rs, 5.29 gears, rear Aussie Locker, front Detroit Truetrac.

01-03-2008, 04:57 PM	#11 (permalink)
My99 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Fayetteville, AR Posts: 1,111	Man. That sucks. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Wish I could give you some guidance, but it sounds like you have pretty much hit on all the possibilities. Horrible weather to be working on a rig. Good luck and keep us posted. __________________ Kyle H Current Yota: 86 4Runner - Daily Beater

01-03-2008, 05:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
fire5 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 66	Thinking out loud here, thook...would a possible (and easiest) way to check if a valve is bent - with the head still on - with the valve cover off already - take the exhaust manifold off, spray a carb or brake cleaner through a valve port and see if it leaks out the other side? I used this technique (mind you with the head already on the ground) when checking my valves after a timing chain failure. I dunno, perhaps the least invasive.

01-12-2008, 08:35 PM	#15 (permalink)
drew303 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 2,032	very interesting The chain skipping is seeming more likely now. If it moved that much somehow you could of bent some valves would easily explain the zero compression (as opposed to a HG failure). I would definetly pull the head at this point. A little word of advice somtimes the heads take a lot of muscle to free em from the headgasket (block). I had to use my cherry picker to pull my brothers head off (that sounds funny) it wouldnt budge otherwise. Lil pressure and a plastic hammer and it came off. Pull the oil pan as well (you'll want to anyways to get the front cover back on properly). Will give you a good look at the crank, bearings, pistons etc. __________________ 1987 Pickup, single cab, 22R, new head, 260 cam TG 3" SAS, rear disc brakes, chromoly rear axles, Chromoly Birfs, Tcase brake, 37x12.50R15 MT/Rs, 5.29 gears, rear Aussie Locker, front Detroit Truetrac.

01-12-2008, 08:37 PM	#16 (permalink)
pete f "pete f passed away quietly in his sleep on July 13, 2008 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Montauk ny/Catskill Mts in winter Posts: 191	Keep us posted Matthew ...Remember you told me you like a challange!!!good luck __________________ pete f 1989 PICKUP/3.0 VZE/3 INCH LIFT/BFG AT'S 32x11.50 ON AMERICAN RACING WHEELS BLACK 767 15x8 /AISIN MANUAL HUBS/RANCHO SHOCKS/JVC 40wx4 KDS-570 AM-FM-DISC PLAYER/KENWOOD 9 CHANNEL EQUALIZER KGC-6042A/DENON 4 CHANNEL LEVEL CONTROLLER-LINE DRIVER DCL-410/DENON DCA-600 MOS FET AMPLIFER LOVE MY RIG/2007 added Bushwacker Fender Flares and Wab-Fab Sliders SWEET "pete f passed away quietly in his sleep on July 13, 2008 Rest In Peace, Pete"

01-13-2008, 07:37 AM	#19 (permalink)
My99 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Fayetteville, AR Posts: 1,111	Hey man keep us updated. Hopefully the damage isn't too extreme. __________________ Kyle H Current Yota: 86 4Runner - Daily Beater

01-13-2008, 07:52 AM	#20 (permalink)
ozziesironmanoffroad Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Spring Valley, CA Posts: 5,676	remember with a racing cam you'd have to replace other stuff as well... bigger cam spring, etc. good luck __________________ The 22r series engines are made from the fires of hell, and will fight tooth and nail to not be sent back. 1988 Toyota P/U 4x4 22re, 1200 miles on the rebuild engine builder .268 cam pioneer CD deck 31x10.50x15 BFG A/T BAJA 100W lights on prerunner bumper KC Daylighters 100W rancho rs5000 MUD IS A VALID PAINT JOB! If not living life to the fullest, why live it? my trucks official buildup thread

01-13-2008, 08:12 AM	#21 (permalink)
tortis Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: shreveport, La Posts: 1,273	the front diff is nothing. 12 little bolts and three big ones, well 5 big ones if you take the drivers side mount of the diff. if you were just a little closer i would come lend a hand,but since your are not closer i will just give you moral support. __________________ 89 Truck X-tra Cab LCE Timing Chain 31'' Maxxis Buckshot 4.88's built by ZUK(the mind reader) Aussie Locker Front and Rear 63'' Chevy Springs Marlin HD Clutch Bilstein HD Shocks 2.5" Exhaust W/Dynomax Muffler 2-50 Watt Backup Lights

01-13-2008, 08:50 AM	#23 (permalink)
111db Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 1,215	Why don't you just pull the engine instead of dropping the diff? At 220k you might as well re-ring and check all your crank bearings, etc. You're doing 2/3 the work of an engine overhaul as it is, and everything you're doing would go much faster out of the truck. I think I had my 22RE out in under 2 hours, and about the same to install it. Just a thought. __________________ Jon *97 4Runner 3.4 4.88's * ARB Lockers F/R * ARB compressor * Sonoran Steel numba 1 * 285 BFG AT/KO * TJM 17 * BudBuilt Skids * Stubbs Sliders & BBQ sauce * Irbis out back * Various Electronic Gadgets**

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