thook

Hi all!
I have a '92 4runner with a 3.0 and an auto tranny that needs a another motor. Will an '89 3.0 work as a replacement? And does it matter if the motor came from a manual or auto trans. vehicle? Thanks!

Elton

the bell housing will be differnt if you search you will find what im talkin about

93ToyKid

We put a 94 3.0 in an 89 and it worked. Lots of little things had to be changed though. Basically, if you have both complete engines, you can swap the parts you need to and it will work.

thook

Do you mean the bell housing will be different from year model to year model or from a manual to automatic? Could you suggest some key words to search?The ones I've come up with haven't gotten me anywhere. Please. ITMT I will keep trying.
Would you mind specifying even a little. I've never done this and the whole motor thing has been a PITA from day one three months ago. Only because we've been jerked around and lied to the whole time.
Thanks all!

93ToyKid

Well...though Toyota kept the 3.0 until 95, it changed alot of things on it during those years. For us, we had to use the older plenum on the newer motor becuase it had different coolant line routings, etc. Also, the Old motor had some sensors on the back of the engine that the new one didn't have, thus leaving us with some open connections. We finally sorted that out and got it all hooked up. The A/C compressor was a little tricky to hook up, becuase in 93 (I think), they changed to the new coolant, and therefore a new compressor. Luckily, the bracket off the old engine bolted up perfectly to the new one, and we were able to run the old compressor on the new motor. I can't really remember since its been a year ago, but there were also some brackets, connections, etc., that required some tinkering with new and old parts to figure out. But since your switching an 89 into a 92, I don't really think you'll have as many problems as we did (and keep in mind these weren't really "problems," just required some swapping of parts). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Toyota changed the 3.0 in 93 with a new timing belt setup, and basically all the things we encountered. 92 and 89 should be the same (although I'm not positive). If that's the case, it'll be a direct swap. Good luck!

Cebby

If you are reusing your existing trans, the BH is a non issue. The bolt pattern where the 3.0 bolts to the BH is the same for auto and manual (what I mean is that the engine blocks are the same)

thook

Thanks all for the input! I did a little calling around in addition to what you all have shared, and a 4x4 salvage yard told me according to his manual the motors will swap directly if the 4th digit on the serial code on the '89 motor is a V. If not, then the we'll have swap the head brackets from the '89 to the '92. A little info for all those interested here! Crossing my fingers cause I haven't actually even seen the new motor yet. Will get to see it Thurs. Was supposed to have gotten the motor 3 months ago, but the oh so honest mechanic told us the motor we were buying was from a '93 that had been rear ended with only 18k miles on it out of Iowa. He gave us the run around for three months until we finally threatened to prosecute him. Then he finally got his "blank" together to get it here to Arkansas! Come to find out, after a little investigative research, he bought the motor off ebay from a 20+yr Toy buff in New York who rebuilt it after 103k miles. This is exactly what we asked him not to do, buy a rebuild and/or from ebay. Only because we've heard Toy rebuilds aren't reliable at all unless done precisely by someone who knows just what they are doing. (We know because the motor that died in our '92 had only 23k on a rebuild and threw the main bearings. The guy in New York, after asking him the history of the new motor, said they may not have replaced the oil pump in our old motor.) And, also, ebay buys can be unpredictable to begin with. You don't always know what you are getting. All would be fine, except we paid $1556 for a motor from Iowa with a different history. Maybe nobody cares to really here all this, but buyers beware! And maybe this is just Arkansas where this kinda crap happens. Needless to say the a@#hole mechanic's house burned down and we found a new mechanic. Interesting how things go around. Thanks again all!

braverex

I swapped a 92 motor into my 89 without much trouble a couple of months ago. If you have ?'s just post em up and someone will be glad to help out!

thook

That's encouraging! Thanks and I will. Nice rig. Got pics?

hektikwon

Don't worry about the bolting up cause even the 3.4 has the same pattern for the 2nd gen v6 tranny, auto or manual. When I put an 88 3.0 in my 91 I did have to swap a few brakets and parts from the 91 engine, like the motor mounts. Just keep your 92 and you should be able to see the differences.

suprathepeg

I always tell people 2 things when they are wanting to put another 3.0 into their truck.

1. be sure to at least change the gaskets from the HG up cause its much easier when the engine is out and you will likely have to do some of this anyways later on.

2. GET SOME HEADERS, this sounds like something that is only really necessary for "performance guys", wrong. One of the biggest flaws with the 3.0 is the exhaust routing, with the crossoverpipe the way it is it causes excessive heat buildup and increased back pressure to the #4 and #6 cylinder. This is what causes most of the HG failures and almost all valve burning. It may cost more but its money very very well spent IMHO

3. (optional) have the heads cleaned and valves ground. There is likely some serious buldup on the 4 and 6 exhaust valves that will ultimately cause a valve to burn.

Yea thats a bit more then your wanting to spend but how would you like to do this again in a year or two.

kyle_22r

no, it's the same.

thook

Wow! Thanks all for more input.
I am hanging to my '92 motor for spare parts, like heads injectors, harnesses and wires, sensors, etc. Aside from that, the '89 motor will be a direct fit without need for any adapting, except possibly the head brackets. Will know more today.

Well, the motor that is going in to my '92 has been COMPLETELY rebuilt. Including what you have mentioned in points one and three. AFA point 2, I have been pondering headers. Considering they do cost money, although I am sure there are great deals and many benefits, I will look further into that. My questions are:1) do they have to be installed while the motor is out or something or is it that it makes it easier? 2) what if any modifcations would have to be made to install headers? Like sensors or rerouting exhaust pipes and such. 3) I know this would give me more power and afford more protection, as you say, but how would it affect my mileage?

S'what I like about your posts, kyle. Short but sweet!

Thanks again all!

suprathepeg

When was the motor rebuilt? This is a great opertunity to retorque your Headbolts. That is someting that almost never gets done cause its such a pain on the 3.0 once in the engine bay but could save a whole lot grief in the future.

Insltalling the headers now is basicly saving your knuckles from stitches. I've heard that you can also eliminate the crossover on then manifolds themselves and that its met with good results. You will have to relocate the O2 sensor and install/build a Y pipe either way.

Here's how i understand it and this is info from guys like EB, your engine makes a set amount of power from the factory. Things like exhuast sytems can either allow that power out or keep some of it trapped inside. 3.0 wants to breathe so the intake and exhaust are keeping the power inside. There's a whole host of reasons why the factory does this that I won't get into.

So lets say that the 3.0 is good for 165 useable HP and 170 unuseable, for arguement lets say that 20 of it is contained in the exhaust and intake with the factory setup.

Open up the intake and you increase the amount of air that the engine can get so it dosn't have to work as hard for it (breathe through your nose and then open your mouth, which is easier?) and you get say 3 HP and much better throttle response thus more low end available power.

Open up the exhaust and the engine can get rid of its waste easier. Suddenly you get 7 more HP.

Intake and exhaust are mutually exclusive so open one or the other and you get 3 or 7, open both and maybe you get 15 thats the kind of math I like.

Open the exhaust too much and you might get 11HP but its all above say 4k RPM and its a bag to drive anywhere but the track.

So how does this affect gas milage you say? its really simple if you can open up more power in the usable powerband then the engine doesn't have to work as hard and less gas is used.

And yea thats the short version.

Header and retorquing the bolts may take more time and cost more money but its well worth it.

thook

Thanks for the brief, Supra! The motor is a rebuild from an '89 4runner with 103k original miles(to recap). Carl Mahar in New York, a member of the Toyota Landcruisers Assoc., rebuilt it over 2 months ago after a cast iron sleeve cracked. It has 50 miles on the rebuild for testing purposes. Exactly when he did the job, I don't know. But, not being flippint, what does that have to do with it? I know he used the original headbolt after his machinist gave him the go on reusing them. And after our questioning the local Toy dealer on whether we need to replace the headbolts with new ones, we were told reusing them if there is no stretching detected was common practice. My wife and I just yesterday learned, from the dealer, of "torque to yield" on the headbolts and I can only assume at this point that Carl knows of this considering his knowledge and experience of 25 yrs of rebuilding Toy motors. Given all of this, do you think we actually need to retorque them? The rebuilt motor is actually still in it's shipping crate and won't be installed for atleast another two weeks. So, we have time to do whatever needs to be done beforehand, including installing headers which we have decided we would like to do. On that note, would it be necessary or just advantageous to replace the exhaust pipe as well. One site I read the guy put a 2.5" pipe on with free flowing cat and Flomaster exhaust. Well, we have only so much money we can put into this vehicle and can only afford what would be absolutely neccessary to improving power and mileage and protect the motor from future failure. As far as headers are concerned, I've dome some looking around and will do more, but could anyone suggest where to find good headers at a good price? Don't need the best, just something good quality within our budget.
Again, thanks all! Incidentally, my wife is now posting on the forum under "rose". So, if you see her posts know that we are collaborating. Have a good one!

suprathepeg

Hmmm. well I don't have the wealth of experiance that he does but at Rauch Off Road we never reuse head bolts on 2.4 and 3.0 rebuilds, never. Maybe there is life left in the ones you had but I know for a fact that the design Toyota used is a 1 time use head bolt. Some even think that the bolts themselves are not good enough and use studs. The short answer is that new bolts are a cheep insurance. Think about it this way $34 from ENGNBLDR.com is a lot cheeper then blowing a HG in 6 months and warping a head out of spec and having to completely tear down the top end and replace the heads (3.0 heads = not cheep). Now your back to where you started, not a good place to be.

Retorqueing the head bolts since the engine is already out is very important if you can do it especially on the 3.0. After heat cycling the bolts can streach thus lesening the torque load they provide making a HG blow easier.

All in all I would highly recomend a 2.25 exhaust into the mufler and 2.5 out. This is a great progressive exhaust setup and likely a little cheeper then a complete 2.5. I'd say that 2.5 is pushing the "useable" powerband. Its basicly half the displacement of a traditional small block v8 to put it into perspective.

As for headers the one area that is killer on these engines is the crossover addressing the rest of the exhaust and leaving the stock monifold setup is deffinately a waste of time. Notice how the passenger side exhaust goes right by 4 and 6 cylinders that creates a lot of extra heat and most of your problems. You may be able to keep the stock maniflods if you remove the stock crossover system and have a custom Y pipe made up or header and y pipe made up either way as you can see the thing that will push the heat out better is a Y pipe rather then the crossover.

My opinion such as it is:

1. Remove the crossover at the very least header being the ideal
2. deffinately do the ISR and deckplate mod (very cheep and instant results)
3. Might not seem practical to replace the head bolts but I would.
4. Deffinately take the cams off and retorque the head bolts (2-3 hours on the engine stand well spent).

rockota

According to Toyota, the head bolts are not torque to yield and should be reusable. That said, I don't reuse them myself, but that's personal preference.

thook

QUOTE=rockota]According to Toyota, the head bolts are not torque to yield and should be reusable. That said, I don't reuse them myself, but that's personal preference.[/QUOTE]

I don't know where you got your info on the headbolts not being torque to yield, but my wife spoke with another Toyota mechanic of 20 years actually working for Toyota, different than the one who rebuilt the motor in question, and he says they are TTY and reusable as well.
Additionally, my wife and I have found info on this site and elsewhere that says they are TTY. And in speaking with a friend that builds hot rods and has replaced heads on two of his Toys says they are torque to yield , as well as reusable. On top of that, in questioning a certified mechanic that has worked on and raced top fuel dragsters and Harley mc's most of his life says the same. All in all, from the research we've done, we have had qualified people say the headbolts are in fact TTY and can be reused IF they are not damaged, stretched, and hold up under torque during installation. As one of the persons mentioned above said, and which all persons being mentioned concurred, the headbolts will never see as much torque on one single bolt as when they are being installed and torqued given that there are sixteen upon motor operation to distribute pressure. If they are going break they will do so when being installed. Also said was that given we are daily drivers and never see the high rpms and the amount of heat and pressure that motors see in extreme off road and racing conditions we are more than likely to never have many of the same issues and need for certain modifications. We have nothing to worry about, essiantially. The mechanic at the Toyota dealer said that they rebuilt hundreds of 3.0's back when the issues were surfacing and never had customers return due to head, headbolt, or gasket failure and headbolts were reused in 98% (approx.) of the cases. I personally have no automotive experience in this area, so I can't say for a fact one way or the other. I will go on percentages of yes and no. Moreover, the motor is already completely together for the exception of injector body, hoses, distributor, alternator, and other peripheral components. Going on what my wife and I have learned we are going to have the motor installed as is and be done with it. Maybe this isn't what some of you all would do or recommend, but the odds seem to be in our favor for a happy Toyota transplant. I realize there are no guarantees, but if something goes wrong down the road it will not be the end of the world and something always works out. I realize also the hassle it would be, but we've have been through enough that any more would seem small. As far as heat to cylinders 4 and 6 and the motor in general is concerned, we have learned that racers commonly use heat shield tape as protection even with the use of headers. This doesn't address the core of the design flaw/issue, but it does afford us some time and economical buffer until we can find some headers at a more affordable price, maybe slightly used, and/or modify the stock exhaust system. Something we would like to do to improve mileage and (one of my wishes) performance capacity some for us daily drivers. In the meantime, when time allows we do have the option to modify the intake as has been suggested, unless this will create issues without having also modified the exhaust. My wife and do sincerely appreciate the time and energy all have shared in our queries as our vehicles are used primarily for the care of the animals here at our sanctuary, and in this respect it is important to us. Nothing sucks more than being broken down 40 miles from home with a vehicle and/or trailer full of raw chicken and other animals supplies and having to spend the night in a cheap motel with our vehicle and supplies having to be to be towed and sitting in an O'Reilly's parking lot over night. We have done this and the like before.
We have learned much so far with your contributions and I'm sure will continue to learn more on this forum. Thank you! Of course, the more we learn the less likely we will find ourselves in said undesirable situations.
Lastly, we have been without our main vehicle for over five months now and it has not always been fun. When the '92 is back up and running doing what we need it to do I will crack open a homemade mead(by yours truly) and drink in cheer and gratitude, with my honey of course! After all, the '92 is hers.
Oh, and one very last thing. Is this a guy only forum? My wife posting under "rose" had some questions under thread titled "92 toy engine swap '89 rebuild". Since there were no replies I'd like to address atleast two of her questions in this thread, if I may.
In number three, cm is the guy who we bought the rebuilt '89 motor from and who did the deed. The cracked cast iron sleeve is the reason he rebuilt it. I will search for info on these questions myself, but if anyone has any input that would be great! One thing we have already learned, in relation to the HG issues with the 3vze, is that the actual design of the gasket itself was a problem. They were being manufactured by Fel-pro and apparently not very well. So, Fel-pro made gasket material improvements, along with the rest of the manufacturing industry. As a result, the gaskets made now are much better than they were then. Maybe that still depends on who makes them! Never the less, with better materials and a better mechanic than the idiots who rebuilt the '92 that failed we'll be in good shape. And hopefully anyone else with 3.0 issues. Once again, thanks!

suprathepeg

Here is the best price I've found on headers: http://www.bajaconcepts.com/bajaraci...uckexhaust.cfm

Toyota has launched another recall on the HG reciently as a result of failed earlier recalls and IIRC all new recalls are done with new head bolts.

The heat buildup in 4&6 is a result of the gasses from the 1,3&5 cylinders being forced on 4&6 throught the crossover making them have to work harder to expell their gasses causing them to build up more heat. Shielding will do nothing to help this situation.

thook

[Ah! Thank you! Though I have found them cheaper.
Hmmmmm........ The Toy mechanic at the dealer didn't mention this.
Oh! I misunderstood the dynamic. Thanks for clarifying.

Since there are two threads now devoted to this topic, I will reply to this in the original thread.
1)In "rose's" thread, she explained our situation a bit. The $34 for HB's certainly isn't the issue. Nor is the money for the HG and whatever else in parts. And none of our hesitation is due to unwillingness to follow obviously good advice. It's all economics, as I am sure you can see. However, if we are to demand anything, it is impossible to demand it from the mech that rebuilt the motor. He is in NY. As rose said, the mech that was originally going to install the new rebuild is out of the picture. He is closing shop. What we are left with is the second mech to do the installation and ourselves. And Rose has explained that. Gee! I'm not sure who's advice to follow. Everyone who has contributed their knowledge seems to know what they are talking about. Certainly more than I. However, simple logic tells me if what you are saying about the second recalls and new requirements is true (and since you are not certain I will call the dealer and question them) that it would be best if the HB were replaced. Now, I am, again, seriously considering doing it myself just to smooth the standing hair on the back of my neck. If there are plain instructions available to do this I bet I could do it. Unless experience is the mitigating factor. As rose pointed out, we just simply can't afford someone who is actually competent, and the newest mech will not want to do this aspect of the job. So, what do you think? Should I even attempt it not being a qualified mech? We are both very mechanically inclined.
3) We will have to inquire further as to the cause of this failure, if even relevant at this point. Believe me, if the new sleeve is quality, it will not fail due to neglect on our part.
4) Got it!
5) Good to know!
6) Again, further inquiry. Unless my wife already knows from already talking to the rebuilder.
Yes! Good advice well heeded and your concern is appreciated. Frankly, I am once again concerned after this new information.