88 4Runner with big plans
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
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88 4Runner with big plans
I'm kind of new so I have looked into this a lot and i didnt want to bore you all with every little detail. So here it is plain and simple.
I have a 88 4Runner that i want to take up to Michigan Tech in the great and cold U.P. for some good fun during college.
The problem...
270,000+ miles on the engine and transmission and a 1400mi+ drive there and back.
The Questions:
1) Engine: Do i rebuild or replace rings, bearings and other known need maintance on high mileage engines
2) Transmission: i have no idea first thoughts were to send it in and have someone look at it for me, but cash is tight (hooray for college!!)
3) Frame: 1 hole (that i know of so far) 2 or so inches in front of engine mount on drivers side, should i cut it up and patch it up or look for donor frame? if resources are available chop front end from firewall forward and make a new front end?
4) Tires: any recommendations cause mine are balding? i was looking at Good year M/T or A/T but i want something more aggressive but will be good for roads too.
5)Suspension: The rear is sagging so i want to lift the truck about 4" to 6" and with that would it be easier with a SAS or IFS?
The Body is crap and Bondo, new fenders and a fresh coat of primer is on the way.
I dont expect to do everything in a 3 month time so i listed what i thought was most important first to last. Again im new, if im doing something blatantly WRONG tell me lol. Thanks for reading and commenting!
I have a 88 4Runner that i want to take up to Michigan Tech in the great and cold U.P. for some good fun during college.
The problem...
270,000+ miles on the engine and transmission and a 1400mi+ drive there and back.
The Questions:
1) Engine: Do i rebuild or replace rings, bearings and other known need maintance on high mileage engines
2) Transmission: i have no idea first thoughts were to send it in and have someone look at it for me, but cash is tight (hooray for college!!)
3) Frame: 1 hole (that i know of so far) 2 or so inches in front of engine mount on drivers side, should i cut it up and patch it up or look for donor frame? if resources are available chop front end from firewall forward and make a new front end?
4) Tires: any recommendations cause mine are balding? i was looking at Good year M/T or A/T but i want something more aggressive but will be good for roads too.
5)Suspension: The rear is sagging so i want to lift the truck about 4" to 6" and with that would it be easier with a SAS or IFS?
The Body is crap and Bondo, new fenders and a fresh coat of primer is on the way.
I dont expect to do everything in a 3 month time so i listed what i thought was most important first to last. Again im new, if im doing something blatantly WRONG tell me lol. Thanks for reading and commenting!
04-09-2009, 12:18 AM
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Here's what you do.
Don't repair anything unless it needs to be repaired.
When you finish college, theoritically you should get a good paying job. Which will make it easier to build it how you want to. College is not the place for good fun with a 4x4. Most schools don't approve car repairs in the rez parking lots.
I had the same choice when I was in college, except I had an old datsun z car. I decided to just keep it running so it could get me around. It was a beater but it had character.
I ended up spending my money on partying with college girls. I don't regret it at all
think about it.......a couple upgrades to a rusted out 4runner..........college girls......takes me 2 seconds to answer that one
Don't repair anything unless it needs to be repaired.
When you finish college, theoritically you should get a good paying job. Which will make it easier to build it how you want to. College is not the place for good fun with a 4x4. Most schools don't approve car repairs in the rez parking lots.
I had the same choice when I was in college, except I had an old datsun z car. I decided to just keep it running so it could get me around. It was a beater but it had character.
I ended up spending my money on partying with college girls. I don't regret it at all
think about it.......a couple upgrades to a rusted out 4runner..........college girls......takes me 2 seconds to answer that one
Last edited by JDMSLIK; 04-09-2009 at 12:19 AM.
04-09-2009, 12:55 AM
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Frame: though the hole is something to be concerned with, is not a particular liability at this point in time. It needs addressed eventually though. Proper prep and treatment with a rust inhibitor and then plating the hole over should help prolong the life of the frame considerably.
Engine... well that's a matter of some debate. 270K is a lot, but if things were maintained, that could be only 1/2 the life of the engine spent. Compression / leak-down testing, checking the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge and a simple tail-pipe emissions test will give you a better indication of what to do than any one of us here could do based on what we know of the engine. But as a matter of note: pull the valve cover and check the timing chain guides. If the guides / chain hasn't been replaced in the last 100K miles, chances are you're living on borrowed time and it may need replaced. That's not to say it HAS to be replaced but it's worth checking.
Transmission: if you're not experiencing any grinding when shifting, the clutch operation is smooth and 2wd / 4wd (hi/low) all are working fine with no vibrations, etc. then you should be fine. You may want to change the gear oil in the trans and front/rear diffs and grease the u-joints but that may be superfluous if the vehicle has been well maintained.
Rear springs: I would not recommend lifting the rear 4-6" without a similar lift up front. Which brings the question of lift the IFS or do SAS. If you're only looking to level the truck, air shocks out back are probably the cheapest / easiest. If you're going for lift, a bracket lift and new springs out back would be the cheapest / easiest / quickest. But you do have the option of finding or buying a kit to install a solid axle and springs front and rear, and weld things together- probably the most expensive, or at least more involved, option.
Tires: tends to be a subjective thing. I have tires on mine more well suited for on-road use since my truck spends 90%+ on road and the off-road time it gets are usually fire trails. But you should get tires that are appropriate for your driving conditions. I'm sure someone will chime in with tire recommendations soon.
For what it's worth, my 88 (my avatar, 4" ProComp lift) had about 268K miles on it and I took if from near Los Angeles, California to Beaumont, Texas and back and my only problem was a leaking front main oil seal. It's since stopped leaking so I'm not 100% sure what the cause was but it was probably the synth oil I put in to test how it would behave before I knew I was taking the trip but got stuck running with because I only had about 150 miles on the synth. So it went about the same distance you're talking about and only had an oil leak due to my own actions.
Engine... well that's a matter of some debate. 270K is a lot, but if things were maintained, that could be only 1/2 the life of the engine spent. Compression / leak-down testing, checking the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge and a simple tail-pipe emissions test will give you a better indication of what to do than any one of us here could do based on what we know of the engine. But as a matter of note: pull the valve cover and check the timing chain guides. If the guides / chain hasn't been replaced in the last 100K miles, chances are you're living on borrowed time and it may need replaced. That's not to say it HAS to be replaced but it's worth checking.
Transmission: if you're not experiencing any grinding when shifting, the clutch operation is smooth and 2wd / 4wd (hi/low) all are working fine with no vibrations, etc. then you should be fine. You may want to change the gear oil in the trans and front/rear diffs and grease the u-joints but that may be superfluous if the vehicle has been well maintained.
Rear springs: I would not recommend lifting the rear 4-6" without a similar lift up front. Which brings the question of lift the IFS or do SAS. If you're only looking to level the truck, air shocks out back are probably the cheapest / easiest. If you're going for lift, a bracket lift and new springs out back would be the cheapest / easiest / quickest. But you do have the option of finding or buying a kit to install a solid axle and springs front and rear, and weld things together- probably the most expensive, or at least more involved, option.
Tires: tends to be a subjective thing. I have tires on mine more well suited for on-road use since my truck spends 90%+ on road and the off-road time it gets are usually fire trails. But you should get tires that are appropriate for your driving conditions. I'm sure someone will chime in with tire recommendations soon.
For what it's worth, my 88 (my avatar, 4" ProComp lift) had about 268K miles on it and I took if from near Los Angeles, California to Beaumont, Texas and back and my only problem was a leaking front main oil seal. It's since stopped leaking so I'm not 100% sure what the cause was but it was probably the synth oil I put in to test how it would behave before I knew I was taking the trip but got stuck running with because I only had about 150 miles on the synth. So it went about the same distance you're talking about and only had an oil leak due to my own actions.
Last edited by abecedarian; 04-09-2009 at 12:57 AM.
04-09-2009, 01:12 AM
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Here's what you do.
Don't repair anything unless it needs to be repaired.
When you finish college, theoritically you should get a good paying job. Which will make it easier to build it how you want to. College is not the place for good fun with a 4x4. Most schools don't approve car repairs in the rez parking lots.
I had the same choice when I was in college, except I had an old datsun z car. I decided to just keep it running so it could get me around. It was a beater but it had character.
I ended up spending my money on partying with college girls. I don't regret it at all
think about it.......a couple upgrades to a rusted out 4runner..........college girls......takes me 2 seconds to answer that one
Don't repair anything unless it needs to be repaired.
When you finish college, theoritically you should get a good paying job. Which will make it easier to build it how you want to. College is not the place for good fun with a 4x4. Most schools don't approve car repairs in the rez parking lots.
I had the same choice when I was in college, except I had an old datsun z car. I decided to just keep it running so it could get me around. It was a beater but it had character.
I ended up spending my money on partying with college girls. I don't regret it at all
think about it.......a couple upgrades to a rusted out 4runner..........college girls......takes me 2 seconds to answer that one
I love my toyota cause other then my brother using it as a beater it had the character i love so i would spend the money on my toy (after the girlfriend of course).
04-09-2009, 01:47 AM
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Frame: though the hole is something to be concerned with, is not a particular liability at this point in time. It needs addressed eventually though. Proper prep and treatment with a rust inhibitor and then plating the hole over should help prolong the life of the frame considerably.
Engine... well that's a matter of some debate. 270K is a lot, but if things were maintained, that could be only 1/2 the life of the engine spent. Compression / leak-down testing, checking the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge and a simple tail-pipe emissions test will give you a better indication of what to do than any one of us here could do based on what we know of the engine. But as a matter of note: pull the valve cover and check the timing chain guides. If the guides / chain hasn't been replaced in the last 100K miles, chances are you're living on borrowed time and it may need replaced. That's not to say it HAS to be replaced but it's worth checking.
Transmission: if you're not experiencing any grinding when shifting, the clutch operation is smooth and 2wd / 4wd (hi/low) all are working fine with no vibrations, etc. then you should be fine. You may want to change the gear oil in the trans and front/rear diffs and grease the u-joints but that may be superfluous if the vehicle has been well maintained.
Rear springs: I would not recommend lifting the rear 4-6" without a similar lift up front. Which brings the question of lift the IFS or do SAS. If you're only looking to level the truck, air shocks out back are probably the cheapest / easiest. If you're going for lift, a bracket lift and new springs out back would be the cheapest / easiest / quickest. But you do have the option of finding or buying a kit to install a solid axle and springs front and rear, and weld things together- probably the most expensive, or at least more involved, option.
Tires: tends to be a subjective thing. I have tires on mine more well suited for on-road use since my truck spends 90%+ on road and the off-road time it gets are usually fire trails. But you should get tires that are appropriate for your driving conditions. I'm sure someone will chime in with tire recommendations soon.
For what it's worth, my 88 (my avatar, 4" ProComp lift) had about 268K miles on it and I took if from near Los Angeles, California to Beaumont, Texas and back and my only problem was a leaking front main oil seal. It's since stopped leaking so I'm not 100% sure what the cause was but it was probably the synth oil I put in to test how it would behave before I knew I was taking the trip but got stuck running with because I only had about 150 miles on the synth. So it went about the same distance you're talking about and only had an oil leak due to my own actions.
Engine... well that's a matter of some debate. 270K is a lot, but if things were maintained, that could be only 1/2 the life of the engine spent. Compression / leak-down testing, checking the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge and a simple tail-pipe emissions test will give you a better indication of what to do than any one of us here could do based on what we know of the engine. But as a matter of note: pull the valve cover and check the timing chain guides. If the guides / chain hasn't been replaced in the last 100K miles, chances are you're living on borrowed time and it may need replaced. That's not to say it HAS to be replaced but it's worth checking.
Transmission: if you're not experiencing any grinding when shifting, the clutch operation is smooth and 2wd / 4wd (hi/low) all are working fine with no vibrations, etc. then you should be fine. You may want to change the gear oil in the trans and front/rear diffs and grease the u-joints but that may be superfluous if the vehicle has been well maintained.
Rear springs: I would not recommend lifting the rear 4-6" without a similar lift up front. Which brings the question of lift the IFS or do SAS. If you're only looking to level the truck, air shocks out back are probably the cheapest / easiest. If you're going for lift, a bracket lift and new springs out back would be the cheapest / easiest / quickest. But you do have the option of finding or buying a kit to install a solid axle and springs front and rear, and weld things together- probably the most expensive, or at least more involved, option.
Tires: tends to be a subjective thing. I have tires on mine more well suited for on-road use since my truck spends 90%+ on road and the off-road time it gets are usually fire trails. But you should get tires that are appropriate for your driving conditions. I'm sure someone will chime in with tire recommendations soon.
For what it's worth, my 88 (my avatar, 4" ProComp lift) had about 268K miles on it and I took if from near Los Angeles, California to Beaumont, Texas and back and my only problem was a leaking front main oil seal. It's since stopped leaking so I'm not 100% sure what the cause was but it was probably the synth oil I put in to test how it would behave before I knew I was taking the trip but got stuck running with because I only had about 150 miles on the synth. So it went about the same distance you're talking about and only had an oil leak due to my own actions.
The whole truck has been maintained for a good 250,000 miles the last 20k kinda worry me. In the last 20k the engine ran on less than 2 quarts of oil for who knows how long which is why im unsure with what to do. How do you do a leak down test i never heard of it. The timing chain was also replaced around 3000mi ago along with the guides.
The transmission is another place of concern for me because the gears grind everyonce and a while and the clutch and 4x4 work perfectly. So i am assuming something along the lines of syncros, gears, and bears would need to be replaces along with the fluild and filter.
With the suspension and reading other threads a lot of people do the SAS and i think that it looks better than the IFS, but to do the SAS what axle would i have to find to put under the front end? As a side note air shocks seem to be my best bet till i find the cash to get the lift i want. If i go with IFS i dont get as much flex as i would with a SAS so a SAS seems logical since i dont seem any reall good pros to keeping the IFS other than saving money. So a SAS should be in store... i just need to find the kit lol.
04-09-2009, 03:00 AM
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If the frame is already rusted, I wouldn't go cheap on any fix. POR15 is about the best I've heard of. Grind, apply the POR15 then weld the plate on, and POR15 it too. Anything you leave exposed without treating is going to be the next point of failure.
A leak-down test is basically pressurize a cylinder and measure how much air leaks out of the cylinder in a given amount of time, and determine where the air is leaking from. It's like a compression test, but better since it can help you tell the difference between rings, intake / exhaust valves and head gasket: leaking rings- hear a hiss in the crankcase, leaking valves- hear the hiss in the intake or exhaust, and leaking head gasket- get bubbles in the radiator.
As for running low on oil, the most likely damage would be to the rod bearings as well as the rings and wrist pins, then crankshaft bearings and valve train. If the oil pressure still reads within spec (35+ PSI at > 3000 rpm, IIRC, and > 7 psi at idle) then the bearings are most likely okay, but the rings may have suffered but that could be caught with a leak-down or compression test.
The consensus is to find an 85 front axle: it has factory gusseting to help keep the axle from bending. Earlier years won't have the same gusseting and if you're getting serious / 'technical' on your trails you will probably want at least the strongest stock axle you can get. You'll still have to find springs though. If you're going to SAS, do some searching and check in to the hi-steer 'mod' which uses the IFS steering box to put the steering linkage on top of the springs / axle, where they are less likely to get hit and damaged.
There are also IFS kits that can increase the travel of the front suspension nearly double over stock (from ~6 to ~10-12" on each side) from Total Chaos and Downey Off Road. So keep that in mind, but those kits can cost as much or even more than SAS.
A leak-down test is basically pressurize a cylinder and measure how much air leaks out of the cylinder in a given amount of time, and determine where the air is leaking from. It's like a compression test, but better since it can help you tell the difference between rings, intake / exhaust valves and head gasket: leaking rings- hear a hiss in the crankcase, leaking valves- hear the hiss in the intake or exhaust, and leaking head gasket- get bubbles in the radiator.
As for running low on oil, the most likely damage would be to the rod bearings as well as the rings and wrist pins, then crankshaft bearings and valve train. If the oil pressure still reads within spec (35+ PSI at > 3000 rpm, IIRC, and > 7 psi at idle) then the bearings are most likely okay, but the rings may have suffered but that could be caught with a leak-down or compression test.
The consensus is to find an 85 front axle: it has factory gusseting to help keep the axle from bending. Earlier years won't have the same gusseting and if you're getting serious / 'technical' on your trails you will probably want at least the strongest stock axle you can get. You'll still have to find springs though. If you're going to SAS, do some searching and check in to the hi-steer 'mod' which uses the IFS steering box to put the steering linkage on top of the springs / axle, where they are less likely to get hit and damaged.
There are also IFS kits that can increase the travel of the front suspension nearly double over stock (from ~6 to ~10-12" on each side) from Total Chaos and Downey Off Road. So keep that in mind, but those kits can cost as much or even more than SAS.
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04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
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If you got a keeper, ignore the college girl comments. That's cool
What I'm suggesting is if your going to college try and avoid spending extra cash on your truck. Get it running proper and safe. But avoid the extra stuff, specifically a sas. Focus on the frame, transmission and engine. I'd go into specifics but it seems like everytime I post, Abe follows and ussually takes care of it.
A couple thousand bucks may not seem like much now, but down the road when your living on KD a couple g's is a god send. I don't know your mechanical background or what kind of shop and tools your working with, but I do know you don't want to rush this in 3 months. For now focus on your studies while your at school. In your spare time do your research for your 4runner project for when your done school.
Check out this site pirate4x4.com, too many guys doing stuff on there.
04-09-2009, 02:06 PM
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Yea she is a keeper 
I agree with you my studies are most important. My main reason to work on the Toyota is to get a car for college with the large run i have to make its a nice security. If everything is done right and well it should last a great long time like it has already. Thanks for the advice both of you! i will say though a SAS and lift are in the future of this toyota!
I agree with you my studies are most important. My main reason to work on the Toyota is to get a car for college with the large run i have to make its a nice security. If everything is done right and well it should last a great long time like it has already. Thanks for the advice both of you! i will say though a SAS and lift are in the future of this toyota!
04-09-2009, 02:24 PM
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1) Engine: Is it leaking anything? If so, replace proper gaskets, do a tune up, change fluids.
2) Transmission: Replace Fluids.
3) Frame: Patch that ASAP.
4) Tires: Check out the new BFG MT's...
5)Suspension: Small body lift(2-3"), or small suspension lift(2-3") Don't think about SAS'ing if your even asking these questions.
2) Transmission: Replace Fluids.
3) Frame: Patch that ASAP.
4) Tires: Check out the new BFG MT's...
5)Suspension: Small body lift(2-3"), or small suspension lift(2-3") Don't think about SAS'ing if your even asking these questions.
04-09-2009, 04:31 PM
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First thing I'd do is go over the frame thoroughly to assess how much rust there is. If you've got rust through up front around the engine mounts, it seems like you might have some problems around other likely areas -- inside the rails in back, around the gas tank, etc. Anyplace where crap and dirt and salty snow can collect and get trapped is a place that can cause you grief. The frame rust topic comes up quite frequently and it's amazing some of the pictures that show up. The really insidious aspect of the whole rust issue is that the frame can look pretty decent when subjected to a cursory inspection but have some serious and virtually unrepairable problems. Get under there with a ball peen hammer and rap on anything that looks even slightly suspect.
04-29-2009, 12:28 PM
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Update
Finals are over So that means time to spend money 
on my baby yota, even though she is older than me 
Has anyone had experience with http://www.engnbldr.com/ From what i have read he's a good guy to work with for engine rebuild parts, and a transmission rebuild/maintenance will be in there somewhere. Along with that i'm going to cure the saggy butt
with some add-a-leafs till i get the cash to install a moderate lift. For tires i would like to go with some TSL radials 
from interco http://www.intercotire.com/tires.php?id=14&g=1, would the stock rims from Toyota work with a set of 30's? Im going to put lockers in front and rear. Im trying to go cheap but quality so if i welded up the front end and put a locker in the rear that should work great, since the front is manual locking hubs.
Pictures of my yota will be up in a couple of weeks so be patient my crowd of many!
So that means time to spend money on my baby yota, even though she is older than me Has anyone had experience with http://www.engnbldr.com/ From what i have read he's a good guy to work with for engine rebuild parts, and a transmission rebuild/maintenance will be in there somewhere. Along with that i'm going to cure the saggy butt
with some add-a-leafs till i get the cash to install a moderate lift. For tires i would like to go with some TSL radials from interco http://www.intercotire.com/tires.php?id=14&g=1, would the stock rims from Toyota work with a set of 30's? Im going to put lockers in front and rear. Im trying to go cheap but quality so if i welded up the front end and put a locker in the rear that should work great, since the front is manual locking hubs. Pictures of my yota will be up in a couple of weeks so be patient my crowd of many!
04-29-2009, 01:04 PM
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If my thinking is right welding the front wont affect tire rub. it will lock both tires in 4x4 and the amount of snow i get in Southeast, MI i don't think it would matter. Driving in 2wd through snow is no problem so i think i should be ok. Now driving in the U.P. that is some snow to recon with lol I love MTU.
Are the TSL's worse than boggers cause im not annoyed with driving on boggers and if they are i already have my kick ass stereo system
to drone out that annoying buzz =].
Are the TSL's worse than boggers cause im not annoyed with driving on boggers and if they are i already have my kick ass stereo system
to drone out that annoying buzz =].
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