snobdds

I know Putney's uses a torque plate honing process due to the block actually twisting when the head bolts are in place. This ensures the engine and the head are aligned and there is no chance of the rings not seating. Most builders do not do this and is a big factor why rings do not seat.

I was going to rebuild my 22re through a local machine shop but they did not have the tools to do a torque plate honing procedure properly. As a result I went with one of Putney's 22RE's (22RE Performance) just because of that one detail. I am actually on the waiting list for a long block and should have it within a month or so. I will report back on how the rings seat with this procedure.

tim a.

The torque plate has nothing to do with ring sealing,it corrects bore distortion.Its also not needed unless the engine is used at high rpm continually.I used npr rings and pistons in my build{ebay special/npr box} and have no oil usage issues.The chrome ring debate has been going on since I was a kid..I would check ring thickness.I have had a set of thin rings on a set of regular pistons.I used rotella 15w40 for break in.All the 10w30 oils are energy conserving{moly based} that have less friction than non energy conserving.I have also avoided wiping down cylinder walls on rebuilds with motor oil,dont know if it helps.Before I removed an engine for oil consumption I would run a handfull of bon ami down the intake and then change the oil.If that dont break the glaze,pull it.Gm had a service bulletin in the 50's for that.Sorry for speculatin,just wanted to rattle a bit.

snobdds

Exactly

If the bore is distorted, the rings will never seal...

tim a.

And bore distortion occurs at.....survey says.........high rpm.Ring seal is a differnt issue.Everbody sees a torque plate in a magazine rebuild and thinks its the hot lick.Not in this case

gbwsaw28

I don't know about you, but I think we should be avoiding chrome rings unless in appropriate situations. But first, let's try to break the rings down for I think were still a little mixed up

3 basic types of base material:

Iron(gray cast): [Coatings: chrome or moly]
- Brittle. Short life span(100k). Cheap. Will seal a crater. 'nuff said.

Ductile Iron: [Coatings:plain? chrome or moly]
- x2 times stronger than cast Iron. Much more flexible and resistant to breaking. Can withstand much more beating. Used in heavy truck/ diesel for yrs.

Steel: [Coatings: chrome or gas nitride, rarely moly]
-x4 stronger than cast iron, x2 than ductile iron. Very resistant to wear/breakage and gives long service life. Improves ability to conform to less than perfect cylinder bore.

now, Coatings:

Chrome:
EXTREME difficulty seating!!!!! Over and Over, I hear and see ppl have oil consumption issues, hence the problem which started this very thread. Very hard material. To use in only EXTREME cases(off-road or dirt-track applications). Can be very rough to cylinder walls. Described as using "brute force" and a little on the old school side.

Moly:
Good lubrication. (assuming better life for cylinder walls). Long service life. Can withstand intense racing/turbo applications. Much better seating properties than chrome. Reduces scuffing/scoring. Suggested by two machinist I've talked to.

Gas Nitrite:
Only seen on steel rings. Also very hard surface. Virtually no ring wear. Probably replacing chrome.


Things to consider:

-NPR makes Gas Nitrite steel rings. I Wonder if they are on to something. NPR is a very respectable Japanese ring company. "NPR is one of the very best manufacturers in the world, in MHO" (engnbldr)

-"I happen to prefer moly, when all is correct they will still be sealed up at 300K" (engnbldr)

^ ^ Interesting considering that EB sells Rock rings. Rock rings = chrome ^


-"It's hard to describe, but the NPR pistons and rings "LOOK" exactly like factory oem 190,000 mile pistons and rings out of an original motor. They look like they are a moly top ring with a cast second." (Trainwreckinseattle)

-plasma moly is a different way to apply the moly coating, supposedly with better results (but were talking race track engines here, so for you and me? not much of a difference).

My thoughts?

I still haven't found exactly what Toyota originally used! that would be nice info... anyone got pics of their original rings?

"Most engine rebuilders do prefer iron, I happen to prefer moly, when all is correct they will still be sealed up at 300K, Iron normally is done at 100K or less." (engnbldr)
- A confusing statement. Iron is a base material, and moly is a coating. I assume he meant plain cast iron, but I don't know what material he prefers a moly coating on...

"It's hard to describe, but the NPR pistons and rings "LOOK" exactly like factory oem 190,000 mile pistons and rings out of an original motor. They look like they are a moly top ring with a cast second"
-So what material? The only NPR I can find are steel/gas nitride rings(NPR Reference: 10-239). I'm really interested in OEM.
Tips to Identify material:
-Cast Iron: somewhat of a thud when dropped. Very little bend. Brittle
-Ductile Iron: very bendable. supposedly could twist like a pretzel. "rings" when dropped
-Steel: not too bendable. Also "rings" when dropped/

I think we have been discussing this subject without really an idea of what were fully dealing with and the many different variables. I don't quite understand how drastically Cast Iron's life changes when coated. If a cast Iron/Moly ring gets the 300k, then ductile is overkill. But until I understand more I'm thinking Ductile iron with a moly coating. I call it a happy medium. Moly lubricates better and gives you that service life we all have come to love about 22r/re engine. While it takes a proper cylinder finish, it doesn't seem to take long to seat. Ductile iron would have plenty of strength to last a 22r/re, and moly doesn't seem to be applied to steel. UNLESS you are constantly off-road, I would think ductile iron/moly is the way to go.

For extreme applications, I would ask you to research more into steel with gas nitride coating (NPR makes a very affordable set). I would hope this would be less of a PITA than chrome. Again I would be weary of cylinder wear.

So I guess you must ask yourself: How much offroading do I really do? Just an occasional weekend warrior, or an devout offroad enthusiast.

one thing I cant stress enough!!
Don't start using synthetic oil for....I dunno... like 5-10k miles! It seems ppl jump to syn way too early and the rings can't scrape it off the cylinder walls and start burning oil.

sources/reading material:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar293.htm

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...ton_rings.aspx

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/moly...ard-20466.html

http://forums.carcraft.com/70/640834...oly/index.html

http://www.grantpistonrings.com/prod...gs_MatCoat.htm

Trainwreckinseattle

To just jump in here again for a quickie. I've been extreamly busy. I sent in that set of rings to Ted. I will await a responce. I also sent in 2 oil samples to a lab for testing. I have assembled 2 more engines trying to duplicate what ted said in his responce for the hone.

Both have failed.

Personally I would love to do one or both of two things. I'd love to drive my happy self to Oregon and see how they do it. Or at least get someone on the horn that is actually doing the hone for Engnbldr and have them talk to a machineist that I trust who also uses the CK-10 so things are like to like for the hone, shoe, and process to try and keep the variables to a minimum.


Also since the nature of this thead seems to have changed, I really would love for people who have had ring sealing problems to post their story. Since the people at Rock don't seem to think there is a problem, and say they know of nobody who has had a sealing problem besides me.

MuddinRI

LOL, Sorry to laugh but if you look at my history of posts you'll find i have this same problem. No one on here wanted to hear it or so it seemed. I got the usual typical test this try that which is fine i do appreciate the support, but i did have more then one person talk about a 10k ring seal time. 10k sound crazy to me. I am very happy to find someone has the knowledge and the time to address this problem. I thought i did evereything right, got all my parts from engbldr got a good machinist to do the machining and i broke it in perfectly. just as you describe my oil started to go and go quick. I'm very disappointed i don't even drive the truck anymore lol cause it pisses me of that i couldn't figure out what was wrong. Too bad i don't have the time or $$ to tare it down. Guess i wasn't saving $$ by rebuilding seeing how i got to do it all over or sell it.

Trainwreckinseattle

You're right it's not a laughing matter. An engine rebuild for the average person is a massive endeavor. It's a lot of time and money, we expect parts to work. Thank you very much for taking a moment to inform us all of your troubles. I'm sorry to hear you had them.

MuddinRI

Ya well it sounds like we all have a problem now, if you've used these rings and your oil leaks like an old mans diaper. I read the post about the honing problem, why was this never mentioned or posted or specified by the manufacturer or anyone till now???
When i bought my parts i asked all sorts of stupid questions i read and researched and did everything to exact spec..... I'm really disappointed. Truck is now For Sale....

TinMan

Trainwreck, are you willing to rebuild one without oiling the cylinders in any way? Would be a great test to see if that has anything to do with getting the rings to seal. I wanted to install mine dry. But I knew it would be on the stand for quite a while. It is very humid here, and I did not want to risk surface rust in the bores. Even while I was waiting to start the build I had to keep a light coat of oil on there about every other day, or the humidity would just suck the fresh oil away. I did take some clean parts washer solvent and clean the bores prior to installing the head. We will see if that helps.

Thanks I think this thread is great.

Later

Trainwreckinseattle

On my engines that I now build using different rings, I simply wipe the bore with a cloth that has regular detergent 10-30 cheep stuff with no problems.

With these other rings, I have tried my regular method, no oil, and wiping with WD-40.

yotafreakshow

the fsm says the top ring is stainless, 2nd is cast iron, oil ring stainless
this info is in the intro to the engine mechanical section (1989)

gbwsaw28

stainless! thats good to know! I ended up ordering Ductile Iron/Moly.

BTW: NPR sells stainless for like $20.00 on ebay.

Trainwreckinseattle

No word yet from anybody

I should get my oil test back from the lab very very soon.

And haven't heard anything about the rings I sent to Engnbldr.

Trainwreckinseattle

Well I recieved my oil test results back from the lab. It wasn't what I was expecting they said everything checks out and is fine. I was thinking there would be high levels of unburned something. The oil turns really really black within a few hundred miles of driving. Strange.

Metals (ppm)

Iron (Fe) 16
Chromium (Cr) 3
Lead (Pb) 10
Copper (Cu) 2
Tin (Sn) <1
Aluminium (Al) 6
Nickel (Ni) <1
Silver (Ag) <1
Titanium (Ti) <1
Vanadium (V) <1

Contaminants (ppm)

Silicon (Si) 21
Sodium (Na) 27
Potassium (K) 11
Water (%) <0.05
Coolant No

Additives (ppm)

Magnesium (Mg) 13
Calcium (Ca) 2584
Barium (Ba) <1
Phosphorus (P) 988
Zinc (Zn) 1048
Molybdenum (Mo) <1
Boron (B) 9

Physical Tests

Viscosity (cSt 100C) 12.4
Fuel (%) 2
SAE Rating Determination 30

Physical / Chemical

Base Number (mgKOH/g) 5.7
DIAGNOSIS
All wear rates normal. Abrasive and other contaminant
levels are acceptable. Viscosity slightly lower than
typical.
Action: Resample next service interval to further monitor.

Anyone know anything about what any of this means?

Trainwreckinseattle

Ok, well I'm at an impass.

I talked with Ted at Engnbldr. He looked at the set of rings I sent in and said they look new. He looked at them with a magnifying glass and said he would have no problems throwing them into an engine and running them.

Ok

So here is where I am. I will say it again so there is no question. I DON'T THINK THERE IS AN ACTUAL PROBLEM OR MANUFACTURE DEFECT WITH THESE RINGS. I do however think the process to make them work is beyond stupid.

I have used 4 machine shops and have tried far too many engines to get these to work right and not consume oil.

Everyone involved needs to know there is a PROBLEM.

Trainwreckinseattle

I encourage EVERYONE with a ring seating problem or oil consumption problem after a rebuild with Rock rings to post something in this thread. It can be a simple "yes I have a problem"


Also If you used Rock rings and they don't use any oil and your oil looks totally normal, also please post.


I really would love to hear everyone I spoke with about this problem in PM. Please post up !

I will be showing this thread to a Rock representative shortly.


Also post if you contact anyone So we KNOW they have heard of your issues.

If you purchased Rock Rings from Engnbldr and they are not seating or are consuming oil please notify Ted by E-mail so he knows of your problem. Make sure to let us know here that you sent him a note about your concerns. Thank you

engnbldr@engnbldr.com

I can't supply you with DJ Rock products information because their web page seems to be taken down, and is no longer available. I will try and get a Good phone number up ASAP for a sales rep or field office rep.

engnbldr

>>>*I know exactly what this test means. The report shows a normal situation, except for a mild viscosity drop.

I inspected the ring set you sent personally, other than being extremely dirty with debris they are normal in every respect. I do not see any evidence of ring failure, wear patterns appear normal.

I do have well over 45 years of experience in this field. One note and a surprise to me, the set you sent us is a Hastings set, checking with tech I find they do sometimes package that brand. I was not aware of that, Hastings was actually their original rings lines when RockProducts was founded a couple of decades ago. Moly lap over ductile iron, standard for the industry.

No one hones blocks for us, we have full Rottler air float equipment in our shop. I used to do all of that, 2 to 3 each and every day, now my son Tod does a few, time permitting. Usually he is in the shipping department, I was not kidding when I said we have sold over 10,000 sets of Rock branded rings in the last dozen years or so, all makes and models, not just Toyota. We supply several PER's with rings and other parts.

As far as honing procedures, there are no tricks. Any machine shop will know what to do, the process is standard for the entire industry, still done the same way it has been done since I did my first one in 1959. This is easy stuff.

I do not know what the problem is in your case, I as yet have nothing to diagnose that demonstrates but now you report 4 MORE "failures" after trying again? My suggestion remains the same, if you have found something else that works, it's best to use them instead....*EB

Trainwreckinseattle

I have switched to another brand. But that doesn't help the people who have experienced this problem and the people who in the future will as well.

The reason I kept trying to make these work is two fold.

1: Purchasing the rebuild kit from Rock and then throwing away the rings to purchase other rings is not what I would like to do ideally.

2: Once I could not make them work, tried 4 different machine shops, and then came online and found other people with this problem. I then decided I would attempt to figure out why, and see if I could figure out the process and spread that information around so others didn't have to deal with this problem. It isn't a big deal for me to pull an engine and tear it down. But for the average joe this is a major hit to the wallet, Most of the people I have talked to have either sold their truck in discust or have simply purchased another rebuilt engine to fix the problem. Putting them out a lot of time and money in the process.


I wan't to be clear. I truely believe you are a stand up guy. Who wants to do everything to help me and the other people that have had problems. It's not your fault

Yopar

iTrader: (2)

I need to recheck my situation and oil use (the vehicle has been sitting with several upgrades being done) but my engine was using 1 qt. every 1,000 miles. It has about 6k on it, .020 over w/ Rock rings, installed w/ a light coat of trans fluid in the bore. They were seated w/ the usual fresh engine break-in: 15-20 3/4 throttle higher gear roll-ons. So I have been following this thread and wondering if it's those rings not seating, or if I have some other problem. I remember thinking, "where is this oil going?" and hoping that it stops using oil as more miles are put on it. Will get back here after driving it again and give an update.