thook

I had a good feeling Ted would be the man to talk to.

Trainwreckinseattle

The help given is wonderfull, and I'm confident this thread will put this subject to rest eventually.

The post above is somewhat engine honing 101. Many people here wont or don't realize all of what was said.

There are a few different types of hone machines (sunnen, rottler, etc), and they all use differnt types of hones and shoes (diamond hone, stone hone, brass shoes, aluminum shoes, etc). Due to the complex nature, we are dealing with exact part numbers and machine processes to make a positive outcome.

So what happens is John Q. Public has no idea what his machine shop is using for a hone, the stones or diamands used, or the shoes used. All of which complicates everything greatly. So a person has to trust what the machine shop is using and hope they know what type of ring you have chosen, and that they know what process to use to make that ring function properly.

At this point this thread has gone about as far as it can untill I send in a set of these used (failed) rings to see what Rock thinks.

I am also re-honing 2 blocks tomorrow with a completely different technique to try and match what was said here today. I will then install one of them hopefully early next week. Of course it takes at least a week to rack up 1,000 miles to see what the results are.

Stay tuned

Trainwreckinseattle

There is NO problem what so ever with the metallurgy of these 22R/22RE blocks. People like Engnbldr have rebuilt thousands of these with NO problems using Rock rings and other brands of the same type. It's all about the hone process, nothing more !!

Trainwreckinseattle

This story has only just begun. While helpfull, the posts so far have only identified the problem, with a possible outline of a solution given. There is MUCH more information needed to actually put this problem to rest. It is my intention to keep with this untill I can fully detail proper instructions to make these rings funtion properly. This thread will be one of the few here with an end result !!!

gbwsaw28

A reply I had just received and i'm passing it along for its relevance

Let this research continue!

PismoJoe

any updates??

I'm building an engine and am about to use Rock rings, now I think I am too nervous to do so even though ENGNBLDR stands by his products, and I don't question his judgement, but I only want to build this thing once!!!

According to rocks website, here: http://www.rockprod.com/pistons/pistonsrings.html
"Rock Rings consist of Chrome piston rings which will withstand the new model engines with computer advancement and older engines. Rock Rings are designed and manufactured for a quick seat and a long life."

I don't know if Ted was saying that the bottom ring is moly? When I dropped my rings off, my machinist took a look at them and I asked how they looked. He told me that they were 'chrome' rings. He said they should seat fine, but will definitely take longer. Now this isn't his first BBQ, so I assume he knows what he is talking about. He's one of the most recommended and oldest machinists in my area.

Trainwreckinseattle

I have recieved ANOTHER e-mail from a person on this site who has had this problem.

I urge someone to start a "Conversation" thread in the appropriate area where people can post a discription of what they did to their engine, possibly as much information as to how it was "rebuilt" and how it's running or consuming oil at this time.


As for an update, I have a block all honed up using a ROUGH hone proces. I'm hoping to have it in the truck for testing by Thurs. July 8

PismoJoe

Hey Train I have a few questions

1) what honing grit were you using for the failed attempts to seat these rings?
2) D&J Rock doesn't make anything, they just repackage for NPR which is OE. How do the rings look different than NPR boxed rings?
3) What break in process do you use? Run it hard @ fluctuating RPM's, gradually increase RPM's, etc

I know that Ted keeps saying his rings are moly, but its strange that my machinist and rocks website say that they are chrome I'm really confused!!!

Trainwreckinseattle

Good questions,

1: I have used a few different hones, diamond and stone. What sucks is stone numbers are not really the same as diamond numbers. But I have used 320 grit stone Which is very common, 400 grit stone, and a diamond hone with the equivalent to the 320 grit stone. In reading and talking to many machine shops I have heard either you want smooth finish or rough finish nobody knows it seem. BTW there is NO information/instructions given by the ring manufacturers not even if you ask. I'm assuming they dont want the possibility of liability.

2: It's hard to describe, but the NPR pistons and rings "LOOK" exactly like factory oem 190,000 mile pistons and rings out of an original motor. They look like they are a moly top ring with a cast second. The Rock look like a Chrome top, with a moly face second ring as well. if you look at them they just simply look totally different. Again NPR may produce them but they are obviously different.

3: I have used a few different break in processes. Also a few of these engines were simply sold to customers. IF you read a hastings ring box it says to, start it up, warm it up, set base timing, then go drive it, 3/4 to full throttle starts but not high RPM, then let it coast against the engine compression to a lower RPM, then 3/4 to full throttle, repeting several times.

It's my belief oil, break in procedures, etc don't really matter. It's what people use to blame when there is a process failure. IF the engine is built/rebuilt properly there are zero problems and everything seals, works, and runs PRETTY MUCH no matter what conditions are thrown at it durring "break in"

To prove this point,

I had a customer. He purchased an engine from me before I knew I had a problem. He installed it. It had oil consumption problems, and EFI runability problems. I spent quite a bit of time diagnosing these problems. Eventually I personally pulled the motor, and replaced it with a fully rebuilt motor from ANOTHER large rebuild company that uses NPR brand pistons and rings (moly). Even though this 4Runner had some kind of ghost issue I simply could not diagnose, the new engine seated perfectly and has no oil consuption problems.
This truck failed emissions, (running rich at cruise and idle)
Ran poorly at cruise,
I used standard cheep 10/30 detergent oil

Essentially I tossed this engine in like Joe Blow would have under not so ideal conditions to see what would happen, sure as heck it was fine. I told the customer to take it to Toyota to get the Runability problem fixed. I had checked everything and came to the conclusion the computer was actually bad or there was some kind of electrical problem that I simply didn't have time to figure out since I was working for free at that point. The long block was good and that that was my responsibility. He NEVER took it to Toyota, he lives in a rural area so the emissions weren't a big deal and has over 10,000 miles on the motor.

Trainwreckinseattle

To make a point:

NPR and Rock rings will need more or less the same type of hone process to make them work. They are of the same "type" rings as apposed to cast rings that any machine shop has ZERO problems getting to work.

engnbldr

>>>*Evening! Le' and I just arrived, I was hoping a sample had arrived but nothing so far. We are headed right back tomorrow, it's haying season at the coast.

The only problems I have ever had with rings not sealing if all the fitment specs are correct is when the bores have been overhoned with too fine a stone/finish diamond.

Now plain iron rings will practically seal a post hole, the material is abrasive.

Both Moly lap and Chrome require a proper finish. Some shops use one grit, and remove any fractured material from the boring process all the way.

My opinion is this is wrong, the bore should be machined to size (about the last .003" or so) with a rather aggressive grit, then that plateau honed in with lighter pressure and 30 degree pattern.

Do that and they will seal, I don't know how many I have done that way but it is in the thousands easily, before I retired I put out around 3 blocks per day, every type of powerplant you can think of.

I have used Grant, SP, Hastings, Perfect Circle, some that I had no idea at all what they were, those just came with the pistons. We had no problems with any of them, the biggest problem is someone breaking one. The brand we supply now is proven in my opinion.

Still, until I see a sample of what you have, I really can't advise and anything I might offer would be just a guess....*EB

Aussie22r

Hi i think im having the same problems.
I rebuilt my 22r about 6 months ago and have put 10000km on it and particurlarly at idle when cold (I always warm it up) an oily substance comes out of the exhaust. Is this from the rings not sealing correctly? if not is it possibly "Gas wash"? and how long can "Gas wash" be left unchecked?

Thanks

Trainwreckinseattle

I am getting a costomers problem engine delivered to me tonight. I will tear it down tonight and get the ring pack to you as soon as possible.

It has aprox. 6,000 miles on it with the oil consumption problem.

gbwsaw28

So does the NPR moly/cast rings have similar seating issues as the Rock chrome rings?

Trainwreckinseattle

Yes any ring other than Cast/Cast will take a more advanced knowlege/process to get the hone right.

PismoJoe

Well I'm gonna go with the Rock Rings, I believe in ENGNBLDR and if anything I'll add my hone process to this thread if any issues arrive. I don't want to run a cast ring because I need this thing to last 300k and I'm in the dirt a lot

gbwsaw28

Putney's has a video on youtube about installing rings in there 22re,
I don't know what type they use, but instead of step 6. with engine oil, they use wd-40 because they comment that engine oil will cause ring/cylinder glazing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jPKi...ext=1&index=36

look to approx. 3:25

They are big into building 22res, maybe a quick call to ask about their ring brand and procedure.

how's the engine tear-down coming along? keep up the research!

jpoe

Subscribed! I just took my block and head to the machine shop and he said he prefers one over the other, don't remember which. He said he likes all of engnblrds stuff except for the rings. Perhaps this is why.

OrRunner

iTrader: (1)

I am in the process of a rebuild for a 22re. Just spoke with my machinest (ordered rings pistons ect through him) about this issue to see if he has heard of the problem. He has provided what he calls an oem replacement, that is molly/cast rings. His opinion is the molly/cast rings need a fine hone for the cylinder to make them seat properly. He also said that he has people who have had oil consumption problems because they dont seat the rings properly by not getting the engine rpms up during the break in process. This would cause the cylinder walls to glaze before the rings seat. Also he said to use 30wt non detergent oil when installing. I have been part of a rebuild with this kit from him on another block in another truck. with 10,000+ miles on the motor with no issues.

gbwsaw28

I also received the same suggestion from my machinist. He also suggested moly and to avoid chrome because of its difficulty seating and abuse to cylinder walls. Basically it breaks down to two after-market approaches:

US: Moly
Japan: Gas Nitrate

While I fully respect the Japanese when it comes to engines, I find the Gas Nitrate to also be a harder ring, similar to chrome. Moly on the other hand seems to lubricate better, less abrasive to cylinder walls, seat quickly with proper hone,and yet stronger than iron rings. (thinking longevity here).

But I'm going for a street engine with a goal of longevity, and with not enough research, I suggest you take what I said with a grain of salt.