3VZE Head Gasket Questions
12-19-2007, 08:45 AM
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3VZE Head Gasket Questions
Ok Yotas:
I am replacing a 1994 4Runner head gasket. Some questions.
Is a retorque of the head bolts a great insurance policy? Is a retorque absolutely necessary? It is not mentioned in FSM that I am aware of. I did see it in a post here (engnbldr's recommendation via Mt. Goat's saved quote. Did the Toyota Recall Warranty have you return to have the head bolts retorqued and valve adjust after replacing the head gaskets?
Is the engnbldr "Rock Gasket" as good as the "improved Toyota" 3VZE head gasket? Could they be different in any way, if so how? Some are recommending the Toyota Gasket set. How do I know which one to use?
I have 182,000 miles on the 2nd head gasket. It worked for over 2 years
and 30,000 miles before failing. I'm attributing the failure to either a) radiator leaked coolant and engine overheated or b) the fact that I did not retorque the head bolts after installing the new engnbldr Topline bolts and following the FSM torque procedures (i.e. 33 ft. lbs. then 90 degrees then an additional 90 degrees).
The car is my daughters and it worked well for an additional 31, 000 miles. She lives in Bend, Oregon some distance away so I am not 100 percent responsible for keeping an eye on the vehicle.
Right now I have pulled the heads, will get them resurfaced, have newmengnbldr Rock Gaskets and new TTY Topline 10.9 bolts ready to go.
I also want the best advice on how to clean the block deck without pulling the engine. Realistically, if "we can get another 2 years worth of driving" and an additional 30,000 miles or more this time around we will be more than happy.
The second time around, the job is much easier with the previous "hands on learning". I am remembering to "enjoy the ride."
It's all GOOD. Thanks in advance for any and all ideas.
I am replacing a 1994 4Runner head gasket. Some questions.
Is a retorque of the head bolts a great insurance policy? Is a retorque absolutely necessary? It is not mentioned in FSM that I am aware of. I did see it in a post here (engnbldr's recommendation via Mt. Goat's saved quote. Did the Toyota Recall Warranty have you return to have the head bolts retorqued and valve adjust after replacing the head gaskets?
Is the engnbldr "Rock Gasket" as good as the "improved Toyota" 3VZE head gasket? Could they be different in any way, if so how? Some are recommending the Toyota Gasket set. How do I know which one to use?
I have 182,000 miles on the 2nd head gasket. It worked for over 2 years
and 30,000 miles before failing. I'm attributing the failure to either a) radiator leaked coolant and engine overheated or b) the fact that I did not retorque the head bolts after installing the new engnbldr Topline bolts and following the FSM torque procedures (i.e. 33 ft. lbs. then 90 degrees then an additional 90 degrees).
The car is my daughters and it worked well for an additional 31, 000 miles. She lives in Bend, Oregon some distance away so I am not 100 percent responsible for keeping an eye on the vehicle.
Right now I have pulled the heads, will get them resurfaced, have newmengnbldr Rock Gaskets and new TTY Topline 10.9 bolts ready to go.
I also want the best advice on how to clean the block deck without pulling the engine. Realistically, if "we can get another 2 years worth of driving" and an additional 30,000 miles or more this time around we will be more than happy.
The second time around, the job is much easier with the previous "hands on learning". I am remembering to "enjoy the ride."
It's all GOOD. Thanks in advance for any and all ideas.
12-19-2007, 09:02 AM
#2
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That would be a good question to ask EB, he's as honest as they come, I'm sure he'll give you a straight answer. You need his email address?
BTW, welcome to YT, nice to see someone that uses the search feature.
Last edited by mt_goat; 12-19-2007 at 09:04 AM.
12-19-2007, 09:52 AM
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What happens when you retorque a TTY headbolt?
The thread continues:
When I explained my situation to the machine shop, the tech could not see how you could retorque a TTY headbolt without lessoning the clamping force. He thought I'd be replacing the already new Topline headbolts I am going to be installing with the new Rock Gasket set from engnbldr. That doesn't make since to use 2 sets of new headbolts. Please advise.
When I explained my situation to the machine shop, the tech could not see how you could retorque a TTY headbolt without lessoning the clamping force. He thought I'd be replacing the already new Topline headbolts I am going to be installing with the new Rock Gasket set from engnbldr. That doesn't make since to use 2 sets of new headbolts. Please advise.
12-19-2007, 10:11 AM
#4
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The thread continues:
When I explained my situation to the machine shop, the tech could not see how you could retorque a TTY headbolt without lessoning the clamping force. He thought I'd be replacing the already new Topline headbolts I am going to be installing with the new Rock Gasket set from engnbldr. That doesn't make since to use 2 sets of new headbolts. Please advise.
When I explained my situation to the machine shop, the tech could not see how you could retorque a TTY headbolt without lessoning the clamping force. He thought I'd be replacing the already new Topline headbolts I am going to be installing with the new Rock Gasket set from engnbldr. That doesn't make since to use 2 sets of new headbolts. Please advise.
>>>*Morning!
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
12-19-2007, 10:24 AM
#5
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Here's the quote from EB where he mentions a "retorque after full warm up", but you would have to ask him the specifics of that advice (like maybe he was refering to the 22r engine or something else):
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Last edited by mt_goat; 12-19-2007 at 10:28 AM.
12-19-2007, 11:00 AM
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Mt. Goat:
Those EB quotes are helpful. I wil go online and ping him. I talked to him on the phone yesterday. He is turning the shop in Portland over to his son Todd to do the machine work. He will keep the online store open. He told me he enjoys helping us who wrench our own. It keeps him alive and strong so to speak.Your help is greatly appreciated. I might add the machine shop tech is being helpful as well. He has my heads right now and will "dishwash" them in his dishwasher $12 and then resurface the heads for $33 apiece. They were pressure checked the last time. I do not believe that the heads are cracked. I don't know the bottom end fared but there was no "milky milkshake look to the oil when I drained it, coolant clear and green. Todd (engnbldr's son explained to me the white smoke on startup and until the heads expanded was from coolant going directly into the exhaust.) Once warmed up the engine limped me home over the pass to do the repairs, not bad at all on 5 cylinders. I kept coolant in the radiator, watched the temp gauge closely, monitered the dipstick. I think all is well with the bottom end for 182 k miles for all it's been through. I am shooting for another 30,000 or more out of of it.
I do not have the extra cash to do a complete teardown. If that were the case I'd grab one of engnbldr's overhaul kits and yank the block out.
On decking the block the machinist suggested that I use a flat bladed razor blade scraper to clean the block surface. How abrasive of a grit sandpaper or emry cloth can I use. What about 3m rotary pads that go on drill. Any tips to prepare the block will be helpful.
I am leaning toward the retorque of the head bolts as my "cure-all." It will be interesting to see what EB has to say.
Carry on and thanks.
Those EB quotes are helpful. I wil go online and ping him. I talked to him on the phone yesterday. He is turning the shop in Portland over to his son Todd to do the machine work. He will keep the online store open. He told me he enjoys helping us who wrench our own. It keeps him alive and strong so to speak.Your help is greatly appreciated. I might add the machine shop tech is being helpful as well. He has my heads right now and will "dishwash" them in his dishwasher $12 and then resurface the heads for $33 apiece. They were pressure checked the last time. I do not believe that the heads are cracked. I don't know the bottom end fared but there was no "milky milkshake look to the oil when I drained it, coolant clear and green. Todd (engnbldr's son explained to me the white smoke on startup and until the heads expanded was from coolant going directly into the exhaust.) Once warmed up the engine limped me home over the pass to do the repairs, not bad at all on 5 cylinders. I kept coolant in the radiator, watched the temp gauge closely, monitered the dipstick. I think all is well with the bottom end for 182 k miles for all it's been through. I am shooting for another 30,000 or more out of of it.
I do not have the extra cash to do a complete teardown. If that were the case I'd grab one of engnbldr's overhaul kits and yank the block out.
On decking the block the machinist suggested that I use a flat bladed razor blade scraper to clean the block surface. How abrasive of a grit sandpaper or emry cloth can I use. What about 3m rotary pads that go on drill. Any tips to prepare the block will be helpful.
I am leaning toward the retorque of the head bolts as my "cure-all." It will be interesting to see what EB has to say.
Carry on and thanks.
12-19-2007, 11:24 AM
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when doing my HG job i first started cleaning the block surface with 3m pads on my drill. they quickly gunked up so i used a scraper. the scraper actually got the crud off quicker than the 3m pad and I didn't have to worry about changing pads every two minutes.
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12-19-2007, 11:51 AM
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Using scaper to clean the cylinder block deck
Blurr:
I too use a gasket scraper like the FSM tells me to do on page EG p. 107 of the FSM. I think in part B it says to use a solvent and soft brush.
What are the best recommended non-harmful solvants to use? All in all it looks pretty good. I do not have a precision straight edge but am thinking about adding one to my collection.
I do not plan on pulling the bottom end out at this time. Just correcting any of my install/ torque as per FSM and EB's directions/ and a final retorque after the initial install and warm-up.
I'm with most of you that the 3VZE itself is not too blame and as a poll on here showed of the yota tech members or guests a very small percent have had 3 or more headgaskets fail. Interestingly enough only 34% or so never had one replaced. This is all very interesting to me and one can't learn to much about the 3VZE and it's headgasket "secrets."
I too use a gasket scraper like the FSM tells me to do on page EG p. 107 of the FSM. I think in part B it says to use a solvent and soft brush.
What are the best recommended non-harmful solvants to use? All in all it looks pretty good. I do not have a precision straight edge but am thinking about adding one to my collection.
I do not plan on pulling the bottom end out at this time. Just correcting any of my install/ torque as per FSM and EB's directions/ and a final retorque after the initial install and warm-up.
I'm with most of you that the 3VZE itself is not too blame and as a poll on here showed of the yota tech members or guests a very small percent have had 3 or more headgaskets fail. Interestingly enough only 34% or so never had one replaced. This is all very interesting to me and one can't learn to much about the 3VZE and it's headgasket "secrets."
12-19-2007, 01:12 PM
#9
Blurr:
I too use a gasket scraper like the FSM tells me to do on page EG p. 107 of the FSM. I think in part B it says to use a solvent and soft brush.
What are the best recommended non-harmful solvants to use? All in all it looks pretty good. I do not have a precision straight edge but am thinking about adding one to my collection.
I do not plan on pulling the bottom end out at this time. Just correcting any of my install/ torque as per FSM and EB's directions/ and a final retorque after the initial install and warm-up.
I'm with most of you that the 3VZE itself is not too blame and as a poll on here showed of the yota tech members or guests a very small percent have had 3 or more headgaskets fail. Interestingly enough only 34% or so never had one replaced. This is all very interesting to me and one can't learn to much about the 3VZE and it's headgasket "secrets."
I too use a gasket scraper like the FSM tells me to do on page EG p. 107 of the FSM. I think in part B it says to use a solvent and soft brush.
What are the best recommended non-harmful solvants to use? All in all it looks pretty good. I do not have a precision straight edge but am thinking about adding one to my collection.
I do not plan on pulling the bottom end out at this time. Just correcting any of my install/ torque as per FSM and EB's directions/ and a final retorque after the initial install and warm-up.
I'm with most of you that the 3VZE itself is not too blame and as a poll on here showed of the yota tech members or guests a very small percent have had 3 or more headgaskets fail. Interestingly enough only 34% or so never had one replaced. This is all very interesting to me and one can't learn to much about the 3VZE and it's headgasket "secrets."
The 3VZE is different in that the first spec is 33# I believe. So we typically install in sequence to 33#, back off 1/4 turn and reset them to 33#. Then 1/4 turn all, then 1/4 turn again (90 degrees).
In theory, this prestretches the bolt. Note I said "in theory" because any bit of debris or irregular resistance does the same thing with torque to yield as it does any other fastner, a false clamping force reading.
The problem with the 3V engine design in MHO is heat, I have read exhaust manifold temps higher than we see on a race car after the race.
Heat is tough on gaskets. The gasket is always the weak link and a sign something else is wrong. Defects with modern materials are pretty rare, no matter the brand. I would say when there is one I find it before I install the gasket.
Hey, don't forget to invite me to dinner in a few months, right now I am too busy working on this place to go anywhere. Everywhere I look there is something to do here on the old ranch. I guess 20+ years of little maintenence can do that....Sure is good to be home again, though....*EB
12-19-2007, 01:31 PM
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EB:
Glad your homestead gets your blood going. I've been hunkered down here in Logsden over 20 years, all the while wrenching on Yotas. Your last post is clear on all but the retorque sequence after the initial warm up and cool down. I'll check my e-mail but I'm sure all 3VZE "do it yourself headgasketers" could benefit from my learning curve. (and yours)
Glad your homestead gets your blood going. I've been hunkered down here in Logsden over 20 years, all the while wrenching on Yotas. Your last post is clear on all but the retorque sequence after the initial warm up and cool down. I'll check my e-mail but I'm sure all 3VZE "do it yourself headgasketers" could benefit from my learning curve. (and yours)
Last edited by headgasket; 12-19-2007 at 05:04 PM.
12-19-2007, 03:29 PM
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Yotas:
I took Mt. Goat's lead and e-mailed engnbldr. His reply was straight and to the point. No retorque necessary on our beloved 3VZE. However, chase those bolt holes is becoming very clear. I'm starting to think the engine was overheated with the radiator as a probable cause. Anyway if your're interested
EB's reply is as follows:
Retorque procedure on 94 Toyota 3VZE
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:28:38 -0800
Hi!
We just got in to the ranch. The torque procedure on the 3VZE does not require a retorque hot, we install them to 33 ft lbs, then got 1/4 turn in sequence.
Then a final 1/4 turn, again in sequence.
That should be all there is to it.
Ted
I took Mt. Goat's lead and e-mailed engnbldr. His reply was straight and to the point. No retorque necessary on our beloved 3VZE. However, chase those bolt holes is becoming very clear. I'm starting to think the engine was overheated with the radiator as a probable cause. Anyway if your're interested
EB's reply is as follows:
Retorque procedure on 94 Toyota 3VZE
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:28:38 -0800
Hi!
We just got in to the ranch. The torque procedure on the 3VZE does not require a retorque hot, we install them to 33 ft lbs, then got 1/4 turn in sequence.
Then a final 1/4 turn, again in sequence.
That should be all there is to it.
Ted
12-20-2007, 06:31 AM
#12
Yotas:
I took Mt. Goat's lead and e-mailed engnbldr. His reply was straight and to the point. No retorque necessary on our beloved 3VZE. However, chase those bolt holes is becoming very clear. I'm starting to think the engine was overheated with the radiator as a probable cause. Anyway if your're interested
EB's reply is as follows:
Retorque procedure on 94 Toyota 3VZE
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:28:38 -0800
Hi!
We just got in to the ranch. The torque procedure on the 3VZE does not require a retorque hot, we install them to 33 ft lbs, then got 1/4 turn in sequence.
Then a final 1/4 turn, again in sequence.
That should be all there is to it.
Ted
I took Mt. Goat's lead and e-mailed engnbldr. His reply was straight and to the point. No retorque necessary on our beloved 3VZE. However, chase those bolt holes is becoming very clear. I'm starting to think the engine was overheated with the radiator as a probable cause. Anyway if your're interested
EB's reply is as follows:
Retorque procedure on 94 Toyota 3VZE
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:28:38 -0800
Hi!
We just got in to the ranch. The torque procedure on the 3VZE does not require a retorque hot, we install them to 33 ft lbs, then got 1/4 turn in sequence.
Then a final 1/4 turn, again in sequence.
That should be all there is to it.
Ted
Then the bolts are in theory (there we go with the theory again...*LOL**) already pulled to their yield point so nothing would happen.
My son has built quite a few of them this way and so far he hasn't gotten any crabby phone calls so it seems to work.
But I will never forget finding the head of a bolt on the floor of my shop, strange one. It didn't let go until the next day, lucky in that the engine was still on the stand in my office. I bolted those heads on myself so I "think" I did it right anyway...But that did make me wonder how many of these engines are running around with the head of a bolt laying there under the valve cover......*EB
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