yotafreakshow

My 87 4runner will start and run/drive perfectly and warm up first thing in the morning with no CEL, until I turn it off and restart. Upon restart, whether 2 seconds or 5 hours later, CEL comes on and it runs with hesitation, no power, maybe a miss here and there. In this state I can drive it slowly, but with no power at all. I have: installed a new fuel filter, air filter, filled fuel tank, added Heet to get rid of any moisture, checked FP circuit, fuel pressure regulator, checked AFM, TPS, water temp sensor, main EFI relay, circuit opening relay, injector resistors, via FSM, no vacuum leaks, pulled codes: 6, 26, 78 ...reset them, start engine drive around a little, repull codes and get an 11 or a 6 ... sometimes. The injectors chatter sometimes while pulling codes, or just with the ignition switch on, but that is intermittent as well. I have done this 10 times or so. Only the 26 shows up in the FSM as rich mixture, but others don't make sense. I have googled obd-1 codes and those other #'s don't really apply...http://www.troublecodes.net/Toyota/ Has any one had this symptom with the 22re? I am a bit stumped as it will run perfectly upon first startup of the day and run great until shutdown-restart. I'm wondering if the ECU is bad...though I know that is ultra rare. I have checked all of the voltage levels from the ECU wiring harness as per FSM too. They all check out. Will a bad o2 sensor cause this much chaos without throwing a code? 4 Crawler, this seems right up your alley!

abecedarian

You're sure it's an 87? codes don't sound right at all- up through 87 they should be single flash codes (i.e. code "11" flashes the CEL eleven times then pauses long, not like the 88-95's: one flash, short pause, one flash, long pause) and no codes above 14 that I can find. If it were an 88+ ECU in the 87 harness, those ECU's use two-digit codes so the lowest code they can display is "11", which means you can't get a code "6".

If there's a chance you might be mis-reading the codes, then this may make more sense:
2= air flow meter signal open or short
6= No NE signal to ECU while cranking or missing with RPM over 1000
7= TPS signal (actual throttle opening angle) open or short
8= Intake air temp signal open or short
11= switch signal: neutral start switch on (clutch pedal is depressed) or missing IDL signal from throttle position sensor during diagnostic check

All of these could be caused by loose connections to the ECU, an issue in the wiring harness, or loose ground(s), possible issues with the power supply (fuse panel, loose battery connection, etc.) or ignition switch or the ECU itself.

Since you're saying your hearing noise from the injectors when pulling the codes, I might lean towards an issue at the ECU so pull it and check for corrosion around the connectors, case, etc.

yotafreakshow

I am referencing a 1988 FSM...I guess I was mistaken in thinking that the ecu's/codes were the same 85-88. That makes alot more sense now. I will check those items and continue on my search. If I interprit my codes as per your list, I have seen them all during this process...I guess I need to find an FSM for the 1987. Now I know I'm not going crazy, at least not because of my Toy.
Thanks!

raydouble

Don't forget the easy stuff like, battery connections and engine and body grounds.

yotafreakshow

Yup, I am on a bad ground, loose connector search. If all of these codes have shown up at one point or another, I can only assume there is a bad ground or connection somewhere, unless the ecu is wacko.

abecedarian

Bad wiring will make you crazy.

Good luck.

yotafreakshow

So finally I've had time to check all connectors, wires, ground straps, ignition switch, all sensors, relays, ect. as per fsm and still no culprit has been found. What I do know is that when the CEL is on, with engine running, timing light hooked up, there is no timing advance...the light stays put as you speed and slow the engine.
I started it first thing today, no CEL. I had the timing light hooked up to check timing advance, it works fine as the engine speeds up and slows down. So this is very intermittent, but consistent in that every thing is fine from a cold start, then shut it down and start it right back up things go to crap.
I am starting to think the ignitor ($500) might be bad, as the code being consistently thrown is 6 - no rpm signal to ecu....wires are good (granted, I haven't unwrapped the harness and looked them super close, there is no sign of damage to the harness), pickup in the distributor is good (as per fsm).
Has anyone else seen this symptom out there?
What am I missing?
Maybe it's time for more

abecedarian

I'm having a as I type.

Well, CEL on may cause the ECU to go into a "limp" mode since it doesn't have proper feedback from sensors to operate properly. What is odd is that the ECU seems to get the RPM signal until you turn the engine off. It might be worth the little bit of effort, since you know what condition causes the code, to drive it around 'til it warms up, turn it off and then try pulling codes. Start the engine without driving then kill it and pull codes, then start and drive a bit and pull codes. I guess what I'm getting at is being hyper-attentative to one little thing you might do that causes the CEL to light up... like everything is fine even if I start it warm but if I give it more than 1/4 throttle while accelerating the CEL comes on. We're really at that point where the most minute of details may give up the ghost.

And if it comes to it, maybe you can work out a deal with a local salvage yard to let you try an igniter out (after leaving a deposit, of course) and if it doesn't fix the problem, you get most of your money back- have to be considerate and give them something for their time too, right? Just make sure, if you do that, that the igniter part number matches yours.

yotafreakshow

well, I've been paying special attention to the ignition circuit and here's what I've found. There is voltage in the Ne, Igt, Ign wires engine running or not running with the ingnition switch on. How do I know if a signal is actually being sent though? do I need an occiliscope (sp?) or something like that to read a signal being sent versus voltage. will there be a flicker in voltage or continuity if there is a signal? The voltage doesn't change whether its running properly or cel is on when I have the connectors (distributor sender, igniter to ecu, ecu terminals Ne-E1) back probed. The resistance in the Ne-E1 terminals on the ecu are not to spec, I measured 1.45 ohms on the 20k and 2000 settings. The fsm says it should be .13-.15 Kohms. Do I need to convert what my ohmmeter says, ie. 1.45 could actually be .145, therfore it's OK, or am I about to go crazy here?
It seems the only thing/variable that trips the cel is and codes are sent, is after cycling the ignition switch. Doesn't matter if the engine warms up, if i touch the throttle, or drive it, or turn on the headlights, or stand on my head with my left index finger on my nose, or not. After sitting all night, I can start it right now and it will be fine. It can run for 10 seconds or 10 minutes, and the instant I turn off the key and restart, trouble shows up. I refuse to throw parts at it, though I am getting close to that point. I have to say, I still suspect the ecu. The injectors will chatter when I pull codes sometimes, sometimes with key on, no jumper wire. They will chatter in unison with the flashing cel while pulling codes, not always, but more often than not.
Like I said in an earlier post, the spark advance does not function when she's in "trouble mode". The timing light flashes right on the 0 degree mark no matter the rpm. It moves up the scale, then off down the pulley as the engine speeds up in normal operating mode. Unfortunately, I don't have nearby access to a salvage yard to borrow components so I will keep trying to figure this out. I guess I need to figure out how to measure if an rpm signal is being sent to the ecu and it's not sending the spark signal to the igniter, or if the ecu isn't actually getting the rpm signal to begin with. Just for fun, I got out the test light and tried to probe the rpm signal wire from the dist. and also the Ne wire between the igniter and ecu and it just grounded out the signal and killed the engine dead both times, so I feel like there is indeed a signal being sent. I thought maybe the light would flicker in unison with an rpm signal, but no dice.
Abe, thanks for being here to bounce ideas off of. I feel like a Jedi in training right now. I will prevail.

sb5walker

The fact that it runs without advance tells you that the igniter is receiving Ne from the distributor, but is not receiving IGT from the ecu. You'll never get a test light to flash off Ne since it is a tiny voltage generated by the hall effect sensor in the pickup coil. In fact, that's a possible source of your trouble. Either the pickup coil isn't generating as strong a signal as it should, or resistance in wires, connectors or the igniter is preventing the signal from getting to the ecu. You might try cleaning up the distrib connection with the igniter and the igniter connection with the ecu. Also check the resistance of the pickup coil at the distributor connector, and see if it is in spec.

It sounds like the source of your trouble is either pickup coil, igniter, ecu or the connections or grounds between them.

Overview of 22re ignition:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post51190760

yotafreakshow

Checked all connectors, grounds, wires, ect. Pickup coil is in spec, igniter must be bad. I hesitate to think the ecu would ever go bad unless it gets hit or wet. This problem showed up in an instant, not like a ghost that shows up once in a while like a wire resistance issue might. That pdf on your link was the tidbit I was looking for, a clear picture of how the ignition system works...I'll return with more when I figure it out. Thanks for all the tips.

yotafreakshow

well, it wasn't the igniter...I got one on ebay for $75, no dice. Still has the same issue, cleared codes, ran it for a while, ect. same symptoms. I got an inexpensive logic probe, it is picking up signal pulses on the Igt, Igf, and Ne wires. Don't know if they are good signals, or a bad ones though. I am starting to think I should pull off the intake plenum to inspect the wiring harness where the signal wires join the harness near the injector wires, ect. I suspect that there is a hidden wire buried under there that may have insulation rubbed through grounding/shorting out the signal or something like that.
I want my 4runner back!!!!!!

yotafreakshow

Would it be a bad idea to run jumper wires from the 3 wire plug (Ne, IGt, IGf) on the igniter to the ecu and bypass the wiring harness to rule out those wires being the issue. I would be careful to insulate all connections to avoid a short. that code 6 just keeps showing up. Just short of running jumpers to the ecu or trying a different ecu, I'm out of ideas here. I am unenthused about pulling the whole harness out and unwrapping it with no signs of damage anywhere.
I have searched and referenced other threads mentioned earlier by sb5walker, ignition details, ect. The igniter and coil were replaced to no avail.
If my hair was longer, I might pull it out.

sb5walker

It certainly wouldn't hurt to run bypasses on those wires just to see if it helps. You know that the igniter is not receiving a good IGT signal from the ecu, because that's the cause of the no spark advance condition. Code 6 is the ecu complaining that it's not receiving Ne from the igniter, so that's a possible legitimate reason for the ecu to not send IGT out. Both of those could also happen if the igniter or ecu had a bad ground.

BUT. As Abe mentioned, the chattering of the injectors when you're checking codes is unusual and makes a bad ecu a distinct possibility. ECUs are electronic devices that contain capacitors, diodes and transistors etc, which can fail with age and use, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that the ecu has failed.

abecedarian

If the TPS registers IDL to the ECU, you also will not get advance either. You might get a bouncing timing signal though, but it won't progress over more than about 20 degrees.
Have you tried running with the TPS disconnected?

abecedarian

One thing that popped in my head is are we really hearing the injectors chatter or may there be something else going on... something that may be tripping the knock sensor to fall back to basic timing?

yotafreakshow

i put a length of heater hose on my ear to find where the chatter was coming from...clearly the injectors. My next move will be to jump the Ne and IGt wires.
I have tried running with TPS unhooked-didn't really help, but that was before I discovered the advance not working and didn't know quite what I was up against. I will hook up the timing gun and see if I get advance with it disconnected. I will double check my Idl specs too. There is no bounce in the timing advance - it either steadily advances as rpm increases, or it sits dead on 0 like a british palace guard.
I found this list of tech info on the pirate 4x4 toyota faq:
http://www.autoshop101.com/autoshop15.html
That page has a ton of pdfs with detailed info. That ignition detail sb5walker linked to a few posts ago is there.

yotafreakshow

well, I'm still at it. just about ready to drive it down to a mechanic...first time I've ever done that. one more try and off she goes. it looks like in order to jump that Ne wire, I will have to clip it near the connectors and solder in the jumper. There is no way to get those spade connectors out of the plastic housing without damage, especially on the ecu side. I fear that if I just stuff the jumper in the backend of the connectors, if there is indeed a ground short, it will still affect the signal, so I want to completely bypass the harness. I am slightly hesitant to clip any wires though.
I rechecked Idl, also pulled tps connector while running, pulled knock wire during running, no change. I guess they are fine. The only other things I have figured out are: with engine fully warmed up, the code 6 won't even reset until it cools down a bunch, not to ambient temp, but left sitting for an hour or so. I left the fuse out for a good 20 minutes and no reset with engine hot...it was about 45 degrees here yesterday when I was messing with it. I discovered after rechecking the h2o temp sensor and forgetting to hook it back up that the ecu will throw the code upon code retrieval with the connector unhooked, even though I hadn't started the engine, so the ecu knew the connector was unhooked. That leads me to believe that the Ne wire must be grounded out somewhere between igniter and ecu with the engine hot somehow...but all my leads have been dead ends so far. I'm just thinking out loud here. Time to suck it up and snip that wire and solder in a jumper.

yotafreakshow

I found an ecu on ebay for 60 bones...It fixed the issue, no symptoms, runs awesome! I'm stoked. The local mechanic was just going to throw parts at it, so I decided to continue on my methodical path and do that myself.

sb5walker

CONGRATS. Thats a good solve - bad ecu is fairly rare. If you have any inclination at all to troubleshoot, I've found you usually do better than most shops, and certainly better than the lame dealers, and you almost always wind up paying for a lot less unneeded parts. Good job.